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Undertanker

Highest Proc Rate - Fiery Weapon / Lifestealing / Crusader

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I am wanting to update my weapon enchant away from 15 agility to one which incurs a chance on hit proc.  Keep in mind that this is for tanking purposes, therefore Crusader will only give increased damage to my Heroic Strike/White hit and 5 damage per shield slam.

 

Reason being is I want to pair Thunderfury proc + Dark Moon Card: Maelstrom Proc + x weapon enchant proc while still upholding the most damage/threat I can put out.  My goal is to get more procs while using non-AP modified abilities while tanking: ie Sunder Armor / Shield Bash / Revenge / Shield Slam.

 

I would like to ignore the fact a couple bosses in MC are immune to fire, and 2 bosses in BWL, and focus on non-resistant numbers since this will be for all content, including AQ/ZG/MC/BWL/5 mans/World PVP/Farming

 

 

A few common weapons that are used for tanking that have procs since the weapon speed can change things:

 

Alcor's - 1.3 speed

Thunderfury - 1.9 speed

Iron Foe - 2.4 speed

Vis'Kag - 2.6 speed

Deathbringer - 2.9 speed

 

 

While it was commonly accepted that Fiery weapon had the highest % proc rate in Vanilla, with Lifestealing second, this would naturally make Crusader 3rd in the proc rate category but way down the list in regards to %.  *Being world buffed will give you a fair amount of spell crit to help with Fiery/Lifestealing/DMC - Maelstrom - 13% crit IIRC.

 

 

To figure this out we'd need to know the % proc rate of each enchant with the weapon speeds listed on AutoAttacks.

 

We can then factor in how ever much 200 AP will increase our HS/White hit damage + 5 damage per shield slam.

 

We should then be able to compare that to the damage gained using Fiery/Life Stealing (while also factoring in the amount of global cooldown abilities that can be used in the same amount of time since the non-AP increasing abilities will proc these two enchants).  60 seconds / 1.5 global cooldown (using revenge/shield slam/ sunder / shield bash) = 40 additional attacks.

 

Also we would need to take DMC - Maelstrom Proc rate into consideration as this can the proc the enchant as well.

 

 

I do not have the raw numbers for to pull off this comparison, if any body does, any help in determining which enchant to use to up more procs on Dark Moon Card: Maelstrom, I would be very appreciative.

 

Edit: corrected Shield slam damage from 4 to 5.  Ty Killerduki

Edited by Undertanker

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Just to add one useless things :

 

Crusader will also increase your Block Value by 5 when it proc ;)

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited by killerduki

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Just to add one useless things :

 

Crusader will also increase your Block Value by 5 when it proc ;)

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

 

That is included in my OP:

 

"and 4 damage per shield slam"  100 Str / 20 = 4 shield block value.   SBV to Shield slam damage conversion is 1:1.

 

Edit:   Oh yeah, I did 4 not 5.  Fixing.   Thanks.

Edited by Undertanker

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This should be appropriate for the Warrior class forums as it is a discussion on enchants effecting tanking scenarios. 

 

Fights on Nost were generally pretty short, so I personally do not like proc based game play (enchants/items). Even Thunderfury is not an ideal weapon for some cases, like Vael. I reckon Zetox will be pretty quick out with a bug report on the rage generation formula used here. (Kalgan) Nost did not have the correct formula, I don't know the formula Elysium used. Maybe a developer (Sidsukana?) could chime in and inform us. 

 

Some interesting TPS cases for weapons:

  • Deathbringer vs. Thunderfury <1min fights, Kalgan's rage formula.
  • Windfury with the above for horde.

Lifestealing is debatable. I personally think it's ridiculous. If you have top DPS in your raid pushing your aggro, a weapon enchant will hardly make any difference. What you want is world buffs + max crit, AP with 8% minimum hit gear setup. Stats will do it for you when your DPS is pushing raidstats records, not procs. So I will always favor +15 agi over procs.

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Rage formula needs to be corrected. I don't think "changed" is the right word. 

 

Never had an Ironfoe on Nost, so I can't say how good it is vs. DB/TF assuming they correct the rage formula. The proc rate may have been low (2.7% old Allakhazam comment), as the top DPS on Nost used R14 weapons, not Ironfoe. 

 

These 2 factors dictate your gear setup (armor, weapon, enchants):

  • How hard are your top DPS pushing? (Without world buffed DPS, you might as well fall asleep as a tank) 
  • Are your healers capable of keeping you alive with a ~410-420 defense build on Nost in BWL? 
It's mostly a trade between 1 and 2. My optimal gear setup unbuffed gave 18.6% crit, hit cap, 674 AP with 424 defense in Patch 1.8 itemization on Nost in BWL. I think NOPE/Coal tanks went even crazier on the trade. Crusader enchant is far too inconsistent for a 30-40 second fight vs. crit from 15 agi. Like I said, it depends on your DPS. If they consistently generate massive threat, you will have to consistently do even more threat. 
 
Ps. To the forum mods/admins: Numbered lists don't work on these forums, you can't edit your comment after a certain time period and you can only post once an hour in the same thread!
Edited by Walgrave

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Thought about putting it warrior thread, but other classes would also benefit from knowing base white hit proc rates of these items.

 

 

My inquiry was based on Nost rage generation of incoming damage.   If this is changed, RIP everybody using Alcorz, RIP me passing on 4 Iron Foes.

 

If rage generations get changed more comparable to Kronos, then Crusader is a must IMO due to needing stronger white hits for rage.

 

I would then probably spec out of Impale and back into Imp Sunder due to needing stronger auto and not being able to HS as often vs Sunder.

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I mention Iron Foe for tanking, not DPS.   If rage generation from incoming damage is "corrected"  some would say, you can't spam heroic strike regardless if it is 1.3 Alcor's or 2.9 Deathbringers.

 

If you look at tanks on Kronos, where is supposed is correct, all tanks either used Crusader or Lifestealing for threat.  I myself used Crusader on Deathbringer / 15 agil on Quel, swapped depending on if I was kill target tanking or off tanking something that is lower on kill priority.

 

I myself used what is in my toon link on Nost, 8 hit, 420 def (if using Onxyia Tailsman), can't remember my base crit off the top of my head, but it was decent.  412 Def if using DMC: Maelstrom.

 

But this portion of the convo has really gotten off topic to the proc rates of said enchants.

Edited by Undertanker

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In many private servers there is bug where Warriors generate Rage from "Dodge/Parry/Blocked damage/Miss" while sadly old tracker got removed, i have brought pure evidence where they should not gain Rage from that ;)

 

Also here is formula originally written by Blizzard regarding Rage which is also broken in all Private Servers :

 

https://forum.elysium-project.org/index.php?showtopic=22647

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited by killerduki

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@Undertanker You missed the point of my 2 posts. Threat generation scales more with offensive gear stats than procs (proc items or enchants). 

 

Rage formula correction will definitely have an impact on the enchants, more people with Crusader for the bigger swings/Shield Slams. I reckon top guild tanks will still stick to +15 agi though, as most of the fights lasts 20-45 seconds, ie. fewer swings with slow weps, less chance of Crusader to proc.  

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You get more procs on Crusader with a lower weapon, not less.

Procs rates are formulated based off MH weapon swing.

An example with Crusader:

If I use Alcor's and it procs 1 time every 23 auto attack swings, from a 5k hit test, it gives an average proc rate 2 times every minute from autos. Giving a 4.3% proc rate. Factor in 40 possible global cool down instant attacks + 46 auto attacks that can be done in 1 min, it should proc 3.67 times in a minute.

Using the same 2ppm that Alcor's obtained, (Vanilla mechanics adjust this to weapon speed), 2.9 sec. Deathbringer will swing 20.6 autos but will still result in the 2 procs in the same amount of time. This gives us a proc rate of 10.3%. We factor in the max amount of global cooldowns possible of 40 in a min at a rate of 10.3% proc rate, we get 7.2 procs in 60 seconds using the same enchant.

In short, Crusader on Deathbringer has 2x the uptime than on Alcor's.

The same applied for DMC: Maelstrom, pairing it with Deathbringer made it proc more, on top of procs being able to proc off of procs, you got even more Trinket, weapon, enchant procs from EVERY more. AP/crit will only help your Auto and rarely used heroic strike and 5 more shield slam damage on a 6 second cool down. They are also not subject to 0.9 damage reduction.

The rage starvation was real, often to the point of foregoing shield block just to get more Sunders. 600+ damage worth of procs that can go off on a Sunder, Revenge, Shield slam is insane for threat.

So if rage gained from damage is changed to Kronos level and you only Heroic Strike 4 times an MC run (it was that bad) I will get Crusader, if I can use Heroic on the regular without it, I need the average PPM on autos only of each enchant (and weapon speed used for said test) and I can do the rest of the math on what is better for threat.

I'll use DMC: Maelstrom over 2% crit all day. 40% of my tank abilities can't crit, much less do any damage. Revenge crit is LoL, and only 20% of my tank abilities are affected by AP.

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Please read the context of my "ie." before making assumptions of what I said. 

 

as most of the fights lasts 20-45 seconds, ie. fewer swings with slow weps, less chance of Crusader to proc.

 

What this means: Take a ~30 sec fight, your total swings with a slow wep is ~10 swings. So you rely on a Crusader proc to occur in that window (excluding other factors like parry-haste), the chance for that to proc is less compared to a longer duration fight. Also, you need that proc to occur in the first 15 seconds in order for you to make the most of it. This is also one of the reasons TF is not an ideal weapon, if it doesn't proc early, your Fury Warrs should be upto your neck on threat with that slow 1.9 speed - although TF is a lot better once they fixed the proc-rate to 25%. Still, some short fights it's better to go with DB to start with high initial threat.

 

Honestly, I don't know how you can defend a proc-based TPS setup in a competitive raid setting. When I used Deathbringer as an example, I meant it for the high top end damage, it might as well have no proc for all I care. I'm astonished you actually used the DB proc for your gearing theory.

 

When you're fully world buffed (along with your DPS), you can near the crit-cap for your weapon skill. Along with your hit cap and maximized STR/AP. You get maximum amount of damage out of each of your 10 swings, along with each of your Shield Slams, whether it crits or not. Your +15 agi enchant helps you near that crit cap. 

 

The consistency of the high threat is key to gearing in an increasingly aggressive damage dealing scene. We don't wait for initial aggro anymore, you rage pool pre-fight and dump your rage as do your DPS warriors, there is no room for a drought of procs. 

 

TL;DR: Use +15 agi if you want to gear for pure stats, and not gear for procs.

Edited by Walgrave

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I am not gonna keep going back and forth with you while you open each post that I didn't read what you put.

You yourself are only counting auto attacks. Not each attack possible on a 1.5 second global as well.

You get in a 30 second fight 20 globals, 10 autos. Deathbringer will have the highest proc rate of Cruusader due to its 2.9 speed. Haste does not increase the proc rate, only the ppm due to getting an additional attack. But so does the proc from Deathbringer because procs can proc off of procs, giving more uptime.

If Nost becomes a rage starvation due to any changes Crusader will be tops. Period. But that is not what this post is about.

What is the proc rate of the 3 mentioned enchant, if whom ever ran test on these with auto attacks only has numbers and tell me what weapon speed you were using, I can determine the rest.

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Fiery Blaze actually has the highest proc rate of any weapon enchant in the game at a flat 15% so the faster the weapon, then the greater the proc chance - plus it is also an AoE attack as well:

 

 

Fiery Blaze Enchantment

Binds when picked up

Use: Enchants a weapon to have a 15% chance to inflict 9 to 14 Fire damage to all enemies within 3 yards.

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=5421

 

Otherwise I would take Lifestealing over the regular Fiery enchant any day of the week seeing as it can used on all bosses in the game, it also scales with spell damage/debuffs and since it's also a heal, you get bonus threat from that.

Edited by Theloras

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Yeah I didn't want fiery blaze due to breaking CC in 5/10/20 mans. It is more of a pally AoE enchant. Lifestealing scaling wouldn't help me much. Lifestealing should give 45 threat per proc, fiery 40 per proc. I can assume 13% crit while world buffed. So if fiery weapon procs 11% more often than Lifestealing, they would even out in threat, BUT that isn't including the additional chances to proc DMC: Maelstrom.

Will be a lot of numbers to run.

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Fiery doesn't scale but Lifestealing does - that's the difference - plus it scales with Shadow Weaving, Curse of Shadow, Nightfall, etc...

 

Don't forget that both the damage and healing of the proc can both crit.

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The reason I have to keep "opening new posts" is because you blatantly take my comments out of context. Like you did for the "ie." and wrote a whole paragraph about how weapon speed effects enchant procs, as if I didn't know that already.

 

Yet again you do this with your new latest comment. I'm starting to think you're trolling me or something.

 

Take a ~30 sec fight, your total swings with a slow wep is ~10 swingsSo you rely on a Crusader proc to occur in that window (excluding other factors like parry-haste)

 

"In that window" means 10 swings is taken as a TIME stamp, not just 10 straight swings. 

 

A time window defines a time interval in which something can occur: for example the time a specific job definition is allowed to run, the opening time of a queue. A time window is made up of time window elements. Each of these elements defines a period of time.

 

I also bolded "factors" like parry-haste. This is talking about the extra attacks from parry-haste, increasing the proc chance of the weapon. Where did you get that I said proc rate is increased? Moreover, why are you lecturing me about it? 

 

That's 2 comments I've had to post to clarify one thing from a 2 sentence post. 

 

If Nost becomes a rage starvation due to any changes Crusader will be tops. Period. But that is not what this post is about.

 

a) No it doesn't. Period. That's what I've been talking about this entire bloody (and regretful) time. Just because every tank on Kronos used it, does not make it better.

B) Your post is not just about proc rate of enchants as you factored it in to specifically tanking situations. So I'm explaining to you why +15 agi enchant is better for tanking than proc based enchants. 

 

You will probably quote me again in this post and misunderstand yet another thing and go on another lecture, so allow me to save you the time by leaving. Cycle of this thread clearly. 

 

Try tanking when you have Ahlaundoh or Actus breathing up your neck, you will quickly realize what I've been saying. 

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I am talking this off record , during my investigation i have found that "Fiery Weapon" does also increase "Rage" for Warriors either .

 

But i did not saved that archive message since i had no use of it :( .

 

If you guys re investigate this, you can find it around archives but will cost you some time ;) .

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

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you "reckon 15+ agil is better" is not explaining why.   Just saying.   

 

"ie. fewer swings with slow weps, less chance of Crusader to proc. " How is this you not saying slow weapons will proc it less?  Alcor's with my numbers would proc crusader 1.3 times on average 30 seconds.  Deathbringer would proc crusader 3.6 times on average in 30 seconds.

 

@Killer,

 

I'll see what I can dig up on it.  I could only find Proc rate testing on Crusader and Lifestealing, Fiery is much harder to find info on.   Been looking for about 5 hours of last 2 days.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2mJVooeANs

Uploaded on Nov 4, 2006

 

Here is Paladin using Fiery Weapon , can see how often it procs.

 

Keep in mind Seal and Judgement of Command also boost his Procs.

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

Yeah gotta love the double and triple procs at times.   I'll do my best to find a proc watch test on it from 2006 or before, and will link the Crusader and Lifestealing proc watches as well.   Important that the test are only on Autos and mention the weapon speed.

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Jesus the site refreshed while working on formulas, typing all this for a second time.

 

Okay so here is my findings talking about the proc rates of the said enchants.   For conversation © = Crusader, (F) = Fiery Weapon, (L) = Lifestealing

 

From 11/28/2005:

 

http://www.elitepvpers.com/forum/wow-guides-templates/45008-weapon-enchantment-procs.html

 

Proc Rates: (auto attacks)

 

Crusader - 1 PPM
Lifesteal - 6 PPM
Fiery - 6 PPM

 

While I didn't think Lifestealing and Fiery were so close to the same PPM, these post from a completely different source shows them to be equal as well from 6/18/2005:

 

http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/thread-6352-post-80543.html#pid80543

 

The discrepancy is Crusader.  This test has Crusader at a 2 PPM.  But their PPM on lifestealing and Fiery is equal to the equation below.  So pulling a 3rd source for Crusader from 4/6/2006:

 

http://rogerkarlsson.com/blogs/wow/crusader/

 

It has the same 1PPM average, so we'll stick with that.  I could find no other source suggesting 2 PPM.

 

How how to tell our our chance to proc based off the weapon we are using:

 

%CP = %Chance to Proc
AS = Weapon Attack Speed
PPM = Proc Per Minute rate

%CP = ( PPM * AS ) / 60

 

Using a Thunderfury: 1.9 speed

 

C = 3.1% chance to proc

F = 19% chance to proc

L = 19% chance to proc

 

How often is that in a 1 minute battle?   We need to take how many swings we do with the 1.9 speed weapon, and factor in a total possible global cooldown abilities possible in that 1 minute as well.   31 white hits, and 40 global cooldowns which can proc the enchants listed above.

 

So with 71 hits:

 

C = 2.2 Procs in 1 minute.

F = 13.49 Procs in 1 minute.

L = 13.49 Procs in 1 minute.

 

But that doesn't stop there for F and L.   Because in that 1 minute, you did damage 13.49 more times, you then factor that into the proc chance as well, because the ability can proc off itself.  So we take 19% proc chance on the 13.49 additional hits for 2.56 more procs, and factor it again, for 0.48 more procs.  (well stop there)  Because the crusader proc doesn't do damage, we can not do the same for that.  So our new procs in one minute per enchant are:

 

C = 2.2 procs in 1 minute

F = 16.53 procs in 1 minute

L = 16.53 procs in 1 minute

 

 

How much damage is that giving you?

 

Lets start with the easy ones first, F and L.

F = 16.53 procs x 40 damage = 661.2 Damage in 1 min. 11 DPS   If world buffed 18% spell crit = 43.6 average damage = 720.70 damage in 1 minute.  12 DPS

L = 16.53 procs x 30 damage = 495.9 Damage in 1 min. 8.2 DPS  If world buffed 18% spell crit = 32.70 average damage = 540.53 damage in 1 minute  9 DPS

 

*Note I am not factoring in resist because I am also not doing to factor in Weaving/Imp Scorch/Curse Shadows/Curse Elements to counter.  We will leave this at base for example purposes.  Spell crit world buffs from DM/Songflower/Rallying Cry = 18%

 

Compare this to Crusader damage increase:

 

Assuming 3.5 AP increases your white hit/Heroic strike by 1 damage.  Assuming Crusader doesn't overwrite itself on the 2.2 procs in 1 minute we are getting 55% uptime on 100 Str.     100 Str = 200 AP   and 5 Shield block Value.  Assuming 25% crit.  Assuming Impale spec (220% crit damage)

 

Our white hits/heroic strikes will hit 57 harder regular hit and 125 crit, so on average 74.1 more damage per swing.  31 possible swings in 1 minute 2297.1 damage, but with a 55% uptime: 1263.4 damage.   Then factor in the 5 extra damage on your shield slam every 6 seconds.   10 shield slams in 1 minute with 25% crit and impale:  an extra 65 damage.

 

Crusader is increasing our damage by:

 

1180.54 x 0.9 (def stance) = 1067.95 @ 18% crit = 17.79 DPS

 

1328.4 x 0.9 (def stance) = 1195.56 @ 25% crit Impale spec. = 19.9 DPS

 

1384.74 x 0.9 (def stance) = 1246.26 @ 35% crit Impale spec. (world buffed - song flower + rallying cry) = 20.7 DPS

 

 

The effect of Crusader on 0 crit vs 25% crit for a tank is an increase of 4.59 DPS.  or 275.9 damage in 1 minute.

 

The effect of Crusader on 0 crit vs 35% crit for a tank is an increase of 5.44 DPS.   or 326.6 damage in 1 minute.

 

 

Sum of above calculations:

**I am not including the heal in threat due to overhealing not providing threat and would do nothing if you were full**

 

World buffed:

C = 20.7 DPS

F = 12 DPS

L = 9 DPS

 

Unbuffed:

C = 17.79 DPS

F = 11 DPS

L = 8.2 DPS

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Continued:

 

Sum of above calculations:

**I am not including the heal in threat due to overhealing not providing threat and would do nothing if you were full**

 

World buffed:

C = 20.7 DPS

F = 12 DPS

L = 9 DPS

 

Unbuffed:

C = 17.79 DPS

F = 11 DPS

L = 8.2 DPS

 

 

 

Now with factoring in 25% proc on Thunderfury.  The weapon proc can proc the enchants as well.  We do 71 attacks in 1 minute, 25% of those should proc the 300 damage+debuff, giving you 17.75 more attacks in 1 minute for determining the values of the enchants above. Lets round down to 17.   So 88 hits in 1 minute.

 

 

So with 88 hits (well factor in the enchants ability to proc off itself, thunderfury can not proc thunderfury)

 

C = 2.7 procs in 1 minute (Thunderfury increases the PPM by 22.7% compared to a same speed non proc weapon)

F = 20.6 procs in 1 minute (Thunderfury increases the PPM by 24.62% compared to a same speed non proc weapon)

L = 20.6 procs in 1 minute (Thunderfury increases the PPM by 24.62% compared to a same speed non proc weapon)

*note proc enchants F and L have higher % of increase due to the ability of F and L proccing off of themselves*

 

Damage after increased % of uptime/PPM

 

World buffed:

C = 25.39 DPS

F = 14.95 DPS

L = 11.03 DPS

 

Unbuffed:

C = 21.82 DPS

F = 13.48 DPS

L = 10.05 DPS

 

 

I am a fan of using DMC: Maelstrom over 2% Crit personally.

 

Having Thunderfuy + Enchant of (F) or (L) gives a total amount of hits in 1 minute (including procs) of 31 white hits, 40 globals, 17 thunderfury procs and 20 (F) or (L) hits = 108 hits that DMC: Maelstrom can proc off of in 1 minute.

 

 

With -25 NR from the enchant, change for partial resist and chance to crit, the average damage seemed to come out to around 284 per proc for my time using it (sorry don't have proc watch screen shot atm, hard to recreate with servers down).

 

I will be performing some extensive test on DMC Maelstrom once servers are back up.  But for now let's find out at what proc proc rates would do what damage: 

 

With 108 damaging abilities in 60 seconds, at 284 average damage:

1.5% proc rate = 5.11 DPS.

2.5% proc rate = 12.78 DPS

3.5% proc rate = 17.89. DPS

 

*Note This can proc your enchant and back and forth, the numbers start getting smaller and smaller on a per hit bases REALLY fast, and some of that is already factored in as stated above, but it keeps going to and makes up fractions of a percent eventually.

 

Once I know exactly what I'm getting with that trinket I'll be able to finish up this comparison. 

Edited by Undertanker

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