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Armilus

Weapon Procs and Threat

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Interesting topics about threat and various weapons / procs.

 

Converting Proc Chance to Threat

 

Vanilla wow does not have a PPM system for weapon procs, this means there is no cooldown, you can get two procs, two hits in a row. In order to compare various weapon procs we can't look at just the threat caused per proc, we also need to account for the proc chance.

 

I prefer this method although it is wildly inaccurate for short fights, at least it gives us a basis for comparison.

 

We have 2 types of attacks that can trigger a weapon proc, auto attacks / heroic strikes and instant attacks on the global cooldown, which are sunder armor and revenge. These two sets of attacks do not interact with each other so let's add together the total number of attacks from each source over a set time frame.

 

Let's start with attacks from our instant abilities. These attacks are on the global cooldown so they occur every 1.5 seconds BUT we are also using some attacks on the gcd that can't proc TF, mainly shield slam. Assuming we use a rotation that is something like this: 0.0s Shield Slam -> 1.5s Revenge -> 3.0s Sunder -> 4.5s Sunder -> 6.0s Shield Slam. We can see that we are getting in 3 attacks that can proc every 6 seconds, then the rotation restarts.

 

This makes 6 seconds an excellent time frame, we can easily add in the attacks every 6 seconds from our weapon speed by dividing 6s by our weapon speed. For example, if we are looking at Ironfoe, 6 / 2.4 = 2.5 attacks every 6s.

 

Now we can add the attacks per 6s together and divide by the 6s to get our attacks per second, 2.5 + 3 / 6 = 0.9166

 

We can now multiply the threat per proc by the proc chance and by our attacks per second to get a normalized TPS value for the proc.

 

The formula ends up being:

<threat per proc> x <proc chance> x [(6 / <weapon speed>) + 3] / 6 = TPS

 

Calculating TPS of a Weapon

 

When trying to calculate the TPS of a weapon with a proc I see a lot of people making the calculations a LOT more complicated than they need to be. For some reason most people try to include the threat from the weapons auto attack in the proc calculation. You don't need to do this and it makes the calculation a lot more complicated. Here's why:

 

1) If you include the threat from the auto attack in the threat from the proc, you CAN'T multiply the proc threat by the proc chance. Why? Because the threat from the auto attack is going to happen whether you get a proc or not.

2) If you can't multiple the threat from the proc by the proc chance, how can you compare the threat of two procs with a different proc chance?

3) It is SUPER easy to calculate the difference in threat from auto attacks between two different weapons (take the difference in DPS listed on the item tooltips, multiple by 0.9 for defensive stance damage reduction, multiple by 1.3 for defensive stance threat increase and by 1.15 for defiance talent)

 

For procs that can generate an extra attack it is a lot harder to calculate threat per proc because we have to account for all of the gear a character is wearing, miss chance, dodge chance, parry chance and crit chance. We also have to account for the extra rage generated and what it can be used for. Ultimately, the only reliable way to compare items that grant extra attack procs is with a full-fledged spreadsheet that takes into account all gear that you are wearing, calculates rage generation and simulates an attack rotation.

 

Thunderfury - Proc only

 

Applying the above formula to TF looks like this.

 

First get the threat per proc,

300 Nature damage, primary target -> Reduced by 10% in defensive stance, 270 base threat

Attack speed debuff, primary target -> ~90 base threat

NR debuff, all targets hit -> ~145 base threat

 

In total that's 505 base threat on the primary target per proc. Multiplied by defensive stance + defiance -> 505 * 1.3 * 1.15 = 754.975 threat per proc.

 

Now we need the proc chance, for now let's assume it is 25% (which was correct for 1.12 in retail).

 

Put that in our formula and we get,

754.975 x 0.25 x [(6 / 1.9) + 3] / 6 = 193.71 TPS

 

If you are horde and have access to windfury, then thunderfury is even better as it can occur on your extra attacks but this is too complicated to calculate in a forum post and is dependent on what other gear the tank is wearing.

 

It shouldn't need to be said but thunderfury is the absolute king when it comes to tanking multiple mobs. The NR debuff adds threat to every target hit by it and each hit by your cleave/WW should be able to proc individually.

 

Work in progress, will add lifestealing enchant and crusader later. I'm going to avoid adding things with extra attack procs until we see if they fix rage generation and if they do how bad it is for tanks. If tanks aren't getting enough rage to keep up their normal shield slam / sunder / revenge rotation then extra attacks are huge because they generate extra rage.

Edited by Armilus

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It would be very interesting to see your tests of lifestealing. In my own tests came to the conclusion that Lifestealing was pretty good for TPS but I'm not really a hardcore theorycrafter. If anything I'm just an enthusiast.

Edited by Storfan

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When doing your Lifestealing calculations remember to factor in procs off of procs.

So if x speed weapon gives an 18 percent chance to proc, take 18 percent of those additional hits, then 18 percent of those.

Also Lifestealing scales 43.5 % or something close to that with +spell power, so you can drink arcane elixir and shadow power, reduce chance to be resisted due to Curse of Shadows, and more damage from.shadow weaving + nightfall.

From my findings, with infinite rage like we had on Nost previously, Lifestealing wins in threat if using the two consumables to increase its damage. If rage is adjusted for tanks and you find yourself rage starved, crusader will always win due to stronger white hits = more rage = more threat.

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When doing your Lifestealing calculations remember to factor in procs off of procs.

So if x speed weapon gives an 18 percent chance to proc, take 18 percent of those additional hits, then 18 percent of those.

Also Lifestealing scales 43.5 % or something close to that with +spell power, so you can drink arcane elixir and shadow power, reduce chance to be resisted due to Curse of Shadows, and more damage from.shadow weaving + nightfall.

From my findings, with infinite rage like we had on Nost previously, Lifestealing wins in threat if using the two consumables to increase its damage. If rage is adjusted for tanks and you find yourself rage starved, crusader will always win due to stronger white hits = more rage = more threat.

 

I think I'll try to get a threat value for no +spell damage, then get a TPS value per +spell damage.

 

At some point in vanilla they stopped proc's from triggering off other procs, not sure if it was ever possible to proc off a proc on nost. I believe it was considered a bug in retail and never intended.

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extra swing procs were proccing from extra swings on nost, there are screenshots floating around with like 5 swing procs from one auto.

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extra swing procs were proccing from extra swings on nost, there are screenshots floating around with like 5 swing procs from one auto.

 

Just curious but i did alot of testing with this, i only found out that it was working with hoj like back in the old days, did you experiment anything regarding this?

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I can't say much on the topic, it would require an inordinate amount of testing to get to the bottom of it. I'd guess it's just HoJ.

Edited by vido

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Procs do proc off of procs and did so on Vanilla.  Just not all items.   Mainly extra swing items and specifcally Thunderfury was changed to not do so, because it was causing the debuff to also proc off itself making it WAY overpowered because it would create a chain of the debuff giving SOOO much AoE threat.

 

For things like fiery weapon/lifestealing/DMC: Maelstrom, 2/4 storm shroud, heart of wyrmthalak, these can all proc off themselves.    In my general discussion thread one of the pally people linked a video from November 2006 with firey weapon grinding and you can see some double procs.

 

Thread post: https://forum.elysium-project.org/index.php?showtopic=23058&p=242139

 

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2mJVooeANs  - 1:04 double proc.

Edited by Undertanker

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