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How to handle the fixed rage system.

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I have to preface this by saying I'm not an expert in this, and there are others on these forums who will be able to explain/correct me but this thread can be used as a localised discussion on the fixed threat system.

The new rage fix means that warriors will now be rage starved. I've seen statements of <50% of the rage will remain. This in turn means less threat as you won't be able to bind heroic strike to a mouse wheel. To combat this there's a few points to consider:

-Instead of previously using a 1.3second weapon to output the most HS possible, it is now important to focus on damage and speed. I've seen people mention deathbringer as a go to, as it is one of the slowest one handers with a high top end damage. I think, as a human, I will try for a Vis kag but I have not done the math. You will want to keep your fast dagger for the fights you are rage capped, such as Vael.

-Along with a slow weapon, you should consider crusader instead of the 15 agility. Crusader is a proc per minute enchant, which means it has a chance to proc based of the weapon speed. This is based on if the weapon was swung for a minute, the weapon would proc 'x' amount of times. Instant attacks, such as hamstring, can also proc it, which isn't taken into account. Therefore a slower weapon has a higher chance per hit to proc crusader, and you have instant attacks to push the ppm up. An expert may be able to explain this better. 15 agility is still on par in my opinion.

-It is important to get 8% hit. Value to get confirmed below. This will prevent your yellow hits from missing, and massively increasing threat. Imagine if out of bad luck two shield slams missed in a row? It will also improve rage generation in white hits.

-Armilus states that your roles as a tank are:

#1 - Get hit for less damage than anyone else in the group

#2 - Hold agro so that you are the one being hit.

If you are geared, it may be worth considering taking more damage so you can output more threat. There's no point being an iron potato if the boss doesn't target you. Consider getting crit, strength and additional hit to boost your dps. A few choice items would be Onslaught girdle, from Rag, as well as the ring from Rag. The AV ring is also suggested, and there is no excuse not to get it. Also, consider using Might gloves over Wrath for the hit.

-Consider a spec change. I'll post the impale spec below at a later date. Once you reach certain gear benchmarks, and with a slower weapon with high top end damage, it may be beneficial to get that increased crit damage. I haven't done the math, but it is an option.

-Read Armilus' guide, or look at the true Threat values of your skills and how they balance. It is easy to spam them all off cooldown, but understanding which ones are most efficient will be a huge help with the new fix.

And finally:

If you are in a guild, TELL THEM ABOUT THIS CHANGE. Your guild should be understanding, but they need to be prepared that there will be a massive reduction in your threat. It's not your fault, and you're doing what you can. However, if you don't say anything there will be a warlock who won't of looked at this patch in the same way as you

They will expect to continue as before, will shadowbolt a boss for a million threat and die. They'll then blame the 'bad tank'

I may have made mistakes, or missed something but this thread is for discussion so please feel free to add or correct.

I have shamelessly taken data from other threads and sources. I will credit later when I'm not on my phone.

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I'll probably switch to use Ironfoe and Quel'serrar over my Alcors. Also, I do believe the patchnotes mentioned WF-totem being fixed meaning Horde-tanks with slow weapons will atleast get that. Crul'shorukh isnt a bad choice for a horde-tank.

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I remember hearing that Ironfoe was bugged on Nostalrius, which put me off farming for it. I thought it did something along the lines of the triple hits would also use the triple rage. Is this the case? If it is, would you still use it?

I guess I may go back to farming for it and disenchanting 10x HoJ...

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I remember hearing that Ironfoe was bugged on Nostalrius, which put me off farming for it. I thought it did something along the lines of the triple hits would also use the triple rage. Is this the case? If it is, would you still use it?

I guess I may go back to farming for it and disenchanting 10x HoJ...

 

Ironfoe was not bugged in that way, however it did have a too-high proc-rate that made it OP. I always used it for tanking onyxia because she hits like a newborn kitten and rage was a big concern. If the Ironfoe fix that was implemented on elysium carries over to Nostalrius, then it's proc-rate will go from 10% to around 3%.

Edited by Storfan

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Ironfoe was not bugged in that way, however it did have a too-high proc-rate that made it OP. I always used it for tanking onyxia because she hits like a newborn kitten and rage was a big concern. If the Ironfoe fix that was implemented on elysium carries over to Nostalrius, then it's proc-rate will go from 10% to around 3%.

Ironfoe Proc Rate should be 5%, was found in archives and posted on old Elysium bugtracker.

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

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Ironfoe Proc Rate should be 5%, was found in archives and posted on old Elysium bugtracker.

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

 

Alright, but is this a confirmed fix that will carry over to Nostalrius too?

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Alright, but is this a confirmed fix that will carry over to Nostalrius too?

Not sure if it was reported in Nostalrius bugtracker, thus i don't have access to see Elysium bugtracker , as long someone do it yep it can be carry over to Nostalrius.

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited by killerduki

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Ironfoe Proc Rate should be 5%, was found in archives and posted on old Elysium bugtracker.

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

From what I have found 3% seems to be the accurate proc chance of ironfoe, proof:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070821131917/http://wow.allakhazam.com/item.html?witem=11684

comment made by Ryotu

 

I think the post linked on the old ely tracker is his first post, where he states that he thinks it is 5% but has not done proper testing yet. after his testing he came with the proc chance of 2.7% over3226 hits

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You only need 5% hit to prevent your yellow attacks from missing. 8% is for white attacks.

 

Also the way that PPM works for enchant procs in vanilla is a bit different than in TBC. The PPM is only used to set the proc chance based on weapon speed. AKA, there is no internal cooldown, you can get two procs in a row, unlike in TBC where PPM also has an internal cooldown component.

 

Keep in mind that warriors were getting a ridiculous amount of rage from raid bosses. It's not like we are going from JUST enough rage to <50% of what we need. You won't be able to spam heroic strike anymore, which is a big hit to threat output, BUT you should still be able to spam sunder, revenge and shield slam on raid bosses. As long as you have enough rage for that, you don't have to go crazy looking for a weapon that will generate maximum rage because that small increase isn't going to be enough to suddenly let you spam heroic strike.

 

I would put it like this:

- If you don't have enough rage to spam shield slam/revenge/sunder, then crusader is probably best because it will increase your rage generation

- If you have enough rage to spam shield slam/revenge/sunder, then cruader isn't nearly as beneficial, I'd look at 15 agi or maybe lifestealing over crusader

 

If anyone likes theorycrafting, you should look into 1.3 speed dagger with flurry spec. Spam heroic strike, use revenge and just enough sunder to keep up a 5 stack (or have another warrior do that). I haven't done the math on it, but that might actually be viable.

 

Edit: Napkin math says heroic strike spam + revenge uses ~12.8 rage per second for at best about 500 threat per second and generates no rage from auto attacks. Shield slam/revenge/sunder uses ~9.8 rage per second for ~417 threat per second + rage generation from auto attacks that can be used for heroic strikes.

 

I'm confident that heroic strike with 1.3 dagger is never going to be viable for MT again BUT, you can spec 31 points into fury and still be a solid off tank http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#LhZVVuV0xoVoxfzox

 

Not something I would bother messing around with but maybe it appeals to somebody out there. Would be decent for a warrior that spends half the raid tanking and half on DPS but in that case you should probably be spamming hamstring with nightfall.

Edited by Armilus

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You only need 5% hit to prevent your yellow attacks from missing. 8% is for white attacks.

 

Also the way that PPM works for enchant procs in vanilla is a bit different than in TBC. The PPM is only used to set the proc chance based on weapon speed. AKA, there is no internal cooldown, you can get two procs in a row, unlike in TBC where PPM also has an internal cooldown component.

 

Keep in mind that warriors were getting a ridiculous amount of rage from raid bosses. It's not like we are going from JUST enough rage to <50% of what we need. You won't be able to spam heroic strike anymore, which is a big hit to threat output, BUT you should still be able to spam sunder, revenge and shield slam on raid bosses. As long as you have enough rage for that, you don't have to go crazy looking for a weapon that will generate maximum rage because that small increase isn't going to be enough to suddenly let you spam heroic strike.

 

I would put it like this:

- If you don't have enough rage to spam shield slam/revenge/sunder, then crusader is probably best because it will increase your rage generation

- If you have enough rage to spam shield slam/revenge/sunder, then cruader isn't nearly as beneficial, I'd look at 15 agi or maybe lifestealing over crusader

 

If anyone likes theorycrafting, you should look into 1.3 speed dagger with flurry spec. Spam heroic strike, use revenge and just enough sunder to keep up a 5 stack (or have another warrior do that). I haven't done the math on it, but that might actually be viable.

 

Edit: Napkin math says heroic strike spam + revenge uses ~12.8 rage per second for at best about 500 threat per second and generates no rage from auto attacks. Shield slam/revenge/sunder uses ~9.8 rage per second for ~417 threat per second + rage generation from auto attacks that can be used for heroic strikes.

 

I'm confident that heroic strike with 1.3 dagger is never going to be viable for MT again BUT, you can spec 31 points into fury and still be a solid off tank http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#LhZVVuV0xoVoxfzox

 

Not something I would bother messing around with but maybe it appeals to somebody out there. Would be decent for a warrior that spends half the raid tanking and half on DPS but in that case you should probably be spamming hamstring with nightfall.

 

Hmm, are you sure about that 5% hit cap? If i remember correctly, isnt 5% base miss for mobs the same level as you are? when taking on a 63 boss, you will have to factor in the extra defence that they have just by being higher level, even for yellow abilities.

 

I would love to test this out, but won't be able to until the new server comes up.

 

EDIT:

 

 

 

I got the 5.6% from previous post from Armilus, Walgrave and a few other established tanks before me, and always assumed yellow and white matched before that.   So until they can provide proof of why they insisted that, I will revert back to my initial thinking of 8.6% as well.  - I am going to edit the other post to remove the incorrect information.

 

This is from the hit thread, page 2: the topic of what is correct for hit cap is very highly debated amongst warriors. So if you state that the hit cap is 5% for yellow, do you have a cite for your reference or some spreadsheets with testing detailing that at 5% no ability attacks were missed on 63 mobs.

Edited by Roflcakes

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I didn't notice a change with Ironfoe. I didn't play with world buffs, only MC without World buffs. It's "okay" without world buffs, BWL weapons are clearly superior. I guess it did not change; it feels like on "old" nost. This is not strictly tank-related, as i play fury. Proc-chance feels on-par with old nost, however clearly not like on kronos where it was totally op. Is there an addon to monitor the proc rates ? Tbh i'm too lazy to test it by hand with a couple thousand hits.

Edited by birday

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@OP Impale will not help with white hits.

 

Would you now recommend a different TPS spec for main tanks in farm content?

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Duh, that HIT working only for ability (yellow attack) and not for white attack. For tank 7-8%, for fury 10-11% (i'm not sure about that, but last patch 1.12.1 was 16-17%).

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Technically it's 5.6% for yellow attacks and 8.6% for white attacks on raid bosses when you are NOT dual wielding.

If you ARE dual wielding then it's 8.6% for yellow attacks and like 20%+ for white attacks (I don't bother remembering because it is not worth obtaining white hit cap when dual wielding).

I believe ranged attacks are different.

For many things I would dig up sources to prove this to you but in this case it's such common knowledge and it's extremely easy to test. If you really don't want to believe me or anyone else that's been playing vanilla wow for the last 4 years, download the recap addon and test it yourself.

If you want some more to think about, consider this: you have a 40% chance to get a glancing blow on your white attacks vs bosses. Weapon skill does not reduce this chance, it only increases the damage of a glancing blow. What happens when you have a 40% chance to glance, a 5.6% chance to be dodged, a 24% chance to miss and a 35% chance to crit?

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Technically it's 5.6% for yellow attacks and 8.6% for white attacks on raid bosses when you are NOT dual wielding.

If you ARE dual wielding then it's 8.6% for yellow attacks and like 20%+ for white attacks (I don't bother remembering because it is not worth obtaining white hit cap when dual wielding).

I believe ranged attacks are different.

For many things I would dig up sources to prove this to you but in this case it's such common knowledge and it's extremely easy to test. If you really don't want to believe me or anyone else that's been playing vanilla wow for the last 4 years, download the recap addon and test it yourself.

If you want some more to think about, consider this: you have a 40% chance to get a glancing blow on your white attacks vs bosses. Weapon skill does not reduce this chance, it only increases the damage of a glancing blow. What happens when you have a 40% chance to glance, a 5.6% chance to be dodged, a 24% chance to miss and a 35% chance to crit?

 

I would be happy to test this for myself, but as my warrior on nost no longer exists, I have to wait till the new server is available prior to doing extensive testing for both the caps. 

 

For many things I would dig up sources to prove this to you but in this case it's such common knowledge and it's extremely easy to test. If you really don't want to believe me or anyone else that's been playing vanilla wow for the last 4 years, download the recap addon and test it yourself.

 

 

The reason I asked for data and/or sources is due it being contentious topic; It seems like multiple people have been quoting numbers, without referencing any testing of sorts. While I understand that people are able to test it themselves to be sure, It would be nice to have some data evidenced, when proposing an axiom.

 

It maybe common knowledge, to some people but; based on a few threads on the forums. It seems to less well known than previously perceived. Thus it's in people's best interest if we had a universal value, with some logs provided for evidence.

 

Honestly I would do this myself but again, I would require Elysium PvP to be available before I can provide a definitive test.

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