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Ghostly

Questions about raiding. (Looking for answers from Leadership)

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I have a lot of questions if there is any experienced players(leadership pref) out there that can help me consume a bunch of knowledge I'm seeking. My intentions will be to lead a guild of my own on the fresh start with some close friends of mine and I'm really looking for a blueprint to raiding and to know as much as I can before I start recruiting leadership and members of my own.

1) With Flask, I notice a lot of guilds from videos don't use Flask (other than probably their tanks) in Molten Core. I assume there are certain places your guild can get by without Flask being used. I'm hoping someone very knowledgeable on the matter can tell me where Flask are "required" and where they are "highly recommended" and by your melee, casters, or both. I know it's a loaded question but I don't want to require a Flask to be used early or at all if it's really not necessary especially in a fresh start environment.

2) I notice many guilds use Loot Council compared to DKP. Why not DKP and how do you handle dealing with a roster of 40 core raiders and filling in the extras with Loot Council?

3) How many of each class/spec do you have generally among a 40 raid roster for Horde? How many tanks and healers? Also how many shadow priest, one? One or Two Nightfalls and if so, Shaman or Warrior recommended? What did i miss?

4) How do you recommend running a raid & Guild? (Taking into consideration the amount of raid leaders, class officers, core raiders, and 'extra's" when some are missing, curious to know even though I have my own idea of how I plan to do it.

5) Which add-ons do you require your members to have for raiding? Any special ones for healers, or tanks for example?


Any other information that you can share and feed me that I didn't think about asking or you think I should know I'd very much appreciate it, if you don't want to post it here please just send it in a private message. Thank you for the help.
 

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I have a lot of questions if there is any experienced players(leadership pref) out there that can help me consume a bunch of knowledge I'm seeking. My intentions will be to lead a guild of my own on the fresh start with some close friends of mine and I'm really looking for a blueprint to raiding and to know as much as I can before I start recruiting leadership and members of my own.

1) With Flask, I notice a lot of guilds from videos don't use Flask (other than probably their tanks) in Molten Core. I assume there are certain places your guild can get by without Flask being used. I'm hoping someone very knowledgeable on the matter can tell me where Flask are "required" and where they are "highly recommended" and by your melee, casters, or both. I know it's a loaded question but I don't want to require a Flask to be used early or at all if it's really not necessary especially in a fresh start environment.

2) I notice many guilds use Loot Council compared to DKP. Why not DKP and how do you handle dealing with a roster of 40 core raiders and filling in the extras with Loot Council?

3) How many of each class/spec do you have generally among a 40 raid roster for Horde? How many tanks and healers? Also how many shadow priest, one? One or Two Nightfalls and if so, Shaman or Warrior recommended? What did i miss?

4) How do you recommend running a raid & Guild? (Taking into consideration the amount of raid leaders, class officers, core raiders, and 'extra's" when some are missing, curious to know even though I have my own idea of how I plan to do it.

5) Which add-ons do you require your members to have for raiding? Any special ones for healers, or tanks for example?

Any other information that you can share....

 

1. Flasks.

No simple answer to this question, really. It all depends on what kind of guild do you want to create. Whoever tell you that they don't require flasks, they are absolutely right, but there are also certain benefits from requesting flask using, by some or by everyone. Obviously, flasked, you would be able to down content in shorter period of time. Secondly, people usually don't consider that what you lose (gold-wise)for getting those flasks for raid, you kinda make it up by spending less consumables. Personally, I go for flask whenever there is something to be gained from it. Might be best option to ask your officers for opinion, whatever they decide is fine for the raid, just you'll get some plus as leader for not being knucklehead who doesn't listen anyone.

 

2.DKP vs. LC

 

Let's get one thing straight. You won't ever make a perfect loot distribution, those who want to complain will always find the reason to complain. Just, from my own experience, and I guild lead and raid lead since 2011 on different vanilla servers, usually those who complain much aren't exactly top-notch players. You would do best if you combine good sides of both loot systems into one. Here are few things that you should care about:

 

-don't swing loot just in one direction, keep track when each player last time got an item, so that loot can be distributed equally

-avoid by all means officer prio on anything

-reward those who are active and specially those who are being fully prepared for raids in term of consumables that they bring for every raid night

-old raiders should not be entitled to everything, but you also have to reward them when they really need something. Keeping balance between new vs old is key to keep guild running.

 

This is all I can think about right now, but this is really complex topic and it was debated earlier on this forum. I'd suggest that you check those topics and get bit wider view on this matter.

 

3. Raid Composition

 

I raided mostly as alliance, therefor I might miss some important thing regarding shamans, but basic idea should be same-ish. Also, make note that raid composition for progression raids and for farm raids isn't exactly the same. For progression I'd go with:

 

4x tanks

2x hunters

10x melee dps

12x rdps (mages+warlocks, sp only after debuff slot increase)

12x healers

 

Optionally, you can lower number of healers to 10, and replace those two with some dps, but it depends what kind of players do you have in your raid. If there's too many fresh vanilla players, or those who have get rusty trough years, 12 healers seems like safer option.

 

4.Raid/Guild Leading

You should never have too many voices speaking during boss fights. Too many people speaking at same time can cause confusion and in some cases that is what makes difference between kill and wipe. Ideally RL will be rdps, simply because it's best balanced PoV/obligations. More often then not, all that tank see are feet and crotch of boss, therefor simply can't see what's going on in the raid. On other hand, healers are too focused on their healing addons to always notice what's going on for good or bad in the raid. Personally, I found paladins to be exception from this rule (flash heal spam), but since you wanna play on horde that is not option for you.

 

Regarding raid leading it self, i might be telling something that is obvious, so forgive me. But, you should keep camera distance maxed out, to increase your own field of view. Also, if possible, try to keep as calm as possible. Shouting on VoIP when фекал hit the fan can only have effect of deer caught in far lights. On other hand, there are situation that can be fixed only with swift kick in the but. It's all about balancing carrot and stick.

 

Also, you might want to delegate some guys from your leadership to do some specific tasks during raids. Observe buffing, using consumables, assign healers, do some special announcements (f/e melee in and out, for some fights, remind decurse/dispell, etc...)

 

When it comes to guild leading it all depends what kind of environment do you want to create, but basically, you can help your self by letting more people handle all necessities that would otherwise burn out single person sooner or later. Keep an eye on number of active raiders, recruit people before you need them rather then after you start needing them. Yes, you can clear MC with 30 people or less but it wears off players. It is easier if you have full raid, and also, when average player see half empty raid he tend to jump to conclusion that guild is not serious, etc...

 

5. Addons 

 

Raid Leading Addons

 

-CT_Raid Assist+CT_Raid Spy

To perform numerous checks (resistance gear check, number of exact consumable type in players bag, raid vote, raid invite, Tank monitor, Cooldowns for CR/Ankhs/Soul Stones etc...). One important thing to know, everyone in raid must have CT_Raid assist in order to make them self visible to person performing checks. You can also use CT_Raid for Raid Frames, but you can also use some other that are looking better then this one.

 

-Anaron's Wow Mod

Check for missing food/potion/flask or raid buff

 

-Dps Mate

I really like this one. Finaly can see who is slacking on decursing, breaking cc, making friendly fire...on top of regular healing/dps metter

 

Must have addons for your raiders

 

-random healing addon of player's choice 

Healers only. If player can explain you how he is raid healing without addon, that can be accepted, but if they are like "I'm not using addons to keep vanilla feeling", it is quite likely that you have player who can't heal outside party that you put him in. It's up to you to decide how you gonna deal with this issue.

 

-Decursive

Any class capable of clensing/decursing/dispelling...Simplify removing curse/ dispelling magic, guess you horde scum <3 don't have to worry that much about disease and poison with your totems.

 

-NECB 

Enemy castbar, for all classes capable of some kind of interrupt/stun

 

-KTM (KlhThreatMetter)

Must have, for all.

 

-BigWigs

Vanilla boss timers. Must have for all

 

I hope I did not miss anything :)

Edited by Elviss

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I agree with Elviss on all points, with the slight modification that Flask of Titans for tanks is (almost) required for higher raiding (BWL, onward) atleast when progressing but not farming. Normaly guildbank provide Flask of Titans to MT and maybe 1-2 OTs.

 

EDIT: As for credentials, I say this as an MT and occational Raidleader.

Edited by Storfan

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Having been officer in almost all guilds ive been in since vanilla to legion. I can tell you to follow Elviss' advice.

Flasking aint really really required untill late naxx. With the exception of tanks. But the flask requirent can be negated with more gear but it make life easier for sure

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Yeah it's interesting though, 12 healers and 4 tanks? That's nearly 1/2 your raid in just healers and tanks.

Could anyone provide me with what is ideal for tanks? I noticed one guild wanting a feral off-tank, and for the healers is there any pref set up or 4 priest, 4 druids, and 4 shaman?

Edit: Also among 10 melee DPS, I'm guessing 6 rogues, 3 fury warriors, and 1 2h Nightfall or do most guilds use 2 2h nightfalls?

Edited by Ghostly

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Those numbers are not carved in stone. 

 

I put those as safer option, but as I already wrote regarding healers, it is depending on quality (skill-wise) of your raid members, you can also deduct one tank and replace it with something. I would not go with less then 3 tanks till you have fat tanks in t2 (obviously, not till t2 get proper stats). Doesn't really matter how you're gonna split those 10ish melee spots, both classes can bring more then good dps, specially in those fights that are biased toward melee rather then range dps.

 

Regarding NF, I have no idea about enha shamies, from what I get, they are bit more useful then retri paladins, so I guess it can benefit raid if you bring two of those.  You might want to give them NF, also give NF to off-tanks, there are more then one fight where they will basically sit aside and pick their nose, with NF at least they'll do something useful.

Edited by Elviss

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Yeah it's interesting though, 12 healers and 4 tanks? That's nearly 1/2 your raid in just healers and tanks.

Could anyone provide me with what is ideal for tanks? I noticed one guild wanting a feral off-tank, and for the healers is there any pref set up or 4 priest, 4 druids, and 4 shaman?

Edit: Also among 10 melee DPS, I'm guessing 6 rogues, 3 fury warriors, and 1 2h Nightfall or do most guilds use 2 2h nightfalls?

 

A BWL-farming guild will easily plow through MC with a raid consisting of 2 protection tanks, 8 healers and rest DPS. As Elviss said, not carved in stone. As for nightfall, I am aware of no single guild that have fury warriors using it. Nightfall should be put on Offtanks and noone else.

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1) Flasks aren't really needed for MC/Ony/20 mans.  Useful for tanks in BWL and up while progressing.  Useful for other classes in AQ and up while progressing.  I have no experience with Naxx.  But in retail vanilla, flasks were never something that were used raid-wide, except in the most hardcore guilds (or on Loatheb :P ).  They're just too expensive to be a nightly thing.

2) As mentioned above, there are no perfect systems.  The issue with DKP is that there are a few bottleneck items that people will save for, which leads to players skipping upgrades in order to hoard DKP for those items.  You don't want usable upgrades rotting on bosses.  Also, with DKP you can't put gear where it's doing the most good, at least, not without breaking the system and pissing everyone off.  The issue with loot council is that you need officers who can rationally and fairly distribute loot and players that understand that loot distribution is for the good of the raid.  A bad council will kill a guild with a quickness.

DKP = higher floor for effective distribution

LC = higher ceiling for effective distribution

Even with a DKP system, you're probably going to have to have a talk with your tanks and plan out who is getting what loot in what order.  Your MT should be the one getting dibs on most of the tank gear because he/she is probably the biggest focal point of the raid.  Also, and there are people who disagree with me, but the first set of bindings should go to your tank as well, if you can get them.  Thunderfury is the best TPS weapon for tanks by a massive margin.  That opens up your DPS to do more damage and is the most beneficial to the raid as a whole.

3) Guilds with aspirations towards raiding are a dime a dozen.  Often, they simply become leveling guilds, because people will hit 60 and then go somewhere that they can start raiding immediately, rather than waiting a month, or two months, or 6 months for the guild to get enough 60s to start in MC.  You're not going to have the luxury of being picky about raid comp to start with, so that's an issue I wouldn't even worry about.  You'll take what you can get.  Obviously, you can't raid with only 1 tank, or with only half a dozen healers (at least, not until you outgear the instance by a fair margin), but worrying about class balance is like a 15 year old worrying about the camber of their car.  Get your license first, learn how to race, then start tweaking your racecar for maximum efficiency, but that's so far away that it's pointless to talk about now.

 

As far as oddball specs, I'd disallow them to start with.  Once you've got a stable raid, you can add/convert a feral druid or a shadow priest in order to increase the dps of the rest of the raid.  Two reasons for this.  One, when you start raiding, you're not going to have a full 40 people and the people you have aren't going to be geared, and this is a big one, not necessarily going to be particularly skilled at their class.  You're taking some warm bodies just to take warm bodies.  Just the way it is.  Hybrids in dps spec can increase the damage of other dps, but a 10% increase to a guy that's only doing 20% of what his class is capable of is really only a 2% increase.  You'd rather just have another dps that's actually carrying their own weight.  Two, the people that insist on raiding in oddball specs are usually the kind of special snowflakes you want to weed out of your guild anyway, because they're (again, usually) self-centered twats who are just going to cause excessive drama anyway.  This is not 2004, everyone knows what the optimal raid specs are for every class, so if you insist on leveling a toon to 60 and then doing something with it that's out of the norm and don't expect some pushback, you're an idiot.  I've been an enhancement shaman in retail since BC, but in vanilla, I healed in raid.  Of course, sometimes I did it in weird farming specs, but I healed, because that's what shamans do in vanilla.  I think I did one MC as a ele for shits and grins, but at that point, we could have gone in there with any configuration and cleared it.

The one thing I wouldn't compromise on to start with is tanks and at least 2-3 amazing healers.  Don't take shitty tanks, and while you can take shitty healers, you need to have some healers that know their class.  But bad tanks and bad healing will absolutely crush morale.  Fortunately, raid tank is a cut-throat position, because there are so few slots in comparison to healing and dps.  For every tank, you're going to have 3 healers and 5 dps, which is why you see the huge disparity between tanks and other roles in 5 mans.  Have at least 2 capable tanks.  A lot of boss fights, especially in MC, aren't incredibly tank-reliant, so as long as you've got a good MT and your primary OT is reasonably capable, you can muddle through with the other tanks half-assing it.

4) Again, to start off with, you're probably rolling with whatever you can find.  You don't want your officers to just be your RL friends, because that will absolutely lead to accusations of favoritism.  What you want are people with impeccable knowledge of their class and the raids that you're attempting, who have incredibly even temperaments and a lot of charisma, with more free time than a trust fund baby.  You're not going to have that to start with, but that's the goal you're working towards.  Numbers aren't important except that you want to make sure that you have someone on at all times that can invite to guild.  And that it's someone you trust to be inviting people to guild.

 

5) Other than BigWigs and KTM, there's nothing that I would call required addons.  I've always used the standard UI and been very addon-light and I used to be a top raider.  I'm not discouraging the use of addons, they can be really helpful, but you don't NEED them to perform well, they just help.  If a Druid gets by just fine without decursive, good for them.  If they're not doing so hot, tell them they need to download it and use it.  If they still suck, fire them.  I don't remember what healing addon I was using in vanilla; I know it wasn't Grid, but it was something similar.  Tanks are less reliant on addons and more reliant on macros, especially for changing stances and using abilities.  Not really necessary for MC/Ony/20 mans, but the tolerances are a lot tighter on the higher leveling raiding, and you need to be incredibly efficient, which is tough to do manually chaining hotkeys.

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@SpottedCow

While your post was nice read, I disagree with few of your points.

First of all, flasks. While I do agree that you don't necessary have to use flask, it should not be taken that lightly as you said, specially not when you are actually giving advice to fresh guild master. Flask can, and will, improve performance a lot, and it is certainly something that need to be considered. On top of that, while flask can be expensive it can shake off some other expenses for the consumables (bigger mana pool=less mana potions/runes used, more hp=less dying, etc...) Bottom line: I don't say you're wrong with your statement, I just believe that it should not be dismissed so easily as you put it. 

Second thing that I disagree with is mention of addons. Question was what addons members need for raiding and to answer that you need to take into consideration wide spectrum of players, not just those who know what they are doing and why they are doing it, but also those who might not exactly know or understand every strategy, those who may not be best with class that they are playing. Not to mention that using some more addons will enhance performance of those who do know what they are doing, like, say, Classic Snowfall (which btw I forgot to mention above in my post). Things that can simplify game mechanics, specially for those who are somewhat new should not be dismissed with statements like "you don't NEED them to perform well" because you really need them and they will make you perform better then you actually do. To put it this way, you don't bash the wall that you need to bring down with your head just because your skull might turn to be harder, you grab the hammer and outsmat it.

But regardless of this criticism, I actually agree with most of your points who are made from top to bottom in very nicely written post.

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@Elviss

You say  2 Hunter and 10 range DD ( Mage, Warlock )

Why only 2 Hunter?

Sorry i play first time as a hunter and havnt raid in classic. I'm confused....

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Vanilla hunters (in 1.12 patch at least) are lowest dps class, so you bring 2 to cover tranquilizing shots and some other utility assignments: anything more than that is just filling raid spots when there are no other choices.

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Flasks:  Use as needed.  Usually they help bridge the gap between content and gear.  If you're not well geared, flasks can give that extra push.  Usually casters will flask up to race the damage meter (regardless of whether it's required), so it really comes down to your tank's health and healer's mana.

DKP:  I tried a few different DKP systems on retail (vanilla/tbc) and they usually all boil down to the same set of issues.  1)  You will get people that hoard their DKP for the premium items and pass on loot that would otherwise be decent upgrades.  Letting upgrades rot only hurts progression, and giving "rots" away "for free" hurts the validity of DKP.  2) New members usually get dumped with gear because everyone else already has it, which is fine except they end up WAY in the hole and can never roll for something that isn't a rot...they might as well just join a new guild and start over.  You might be able to get around this by setting up some sort of decay, but I always found DKP to be cumbersome for those reasons.

Loot Council:  When our guild started raiding on Old Nost, we used a loot council and still use it today.  It's not without it's own problems, but it's the best system I've seen so long as it is operated in an honest environment.  A corrupt council will corrupt the guild and you will quickly be looking for a new one.  You'll make some mistakes, which will piss people off.  You'll make far more correct decisions, and you'll still piss some people off.  It all depends on the guild culture you cultivate.  If someone takes issue with a decision, make sure to hear them out and reflect on it to see whether you need to modify the decision-making process.  You can't make everyone happy all the time, but I feel that a well-run loot council can make 95% of the raid happy 95% of the time (or better).  On top of that, nothing useful rots, you can direct key pieces of loot to where it will help the raid the most, and new guys can get top-tier pieces if they've proven themselves worthy, helping retention of good players.   Keys to running this well:  Maintain a log for attendance and loot history to help in identifying who hasn't received loot in awhile along with identifying those who show up consistently.  Be flexible, admit when mistakes are made, and communicate how you plan to avoid those mistakes in the future.

Raid Composition:  If you're starting in MC, just bring what you can get.  At least 4 (warrior) tanks and 10 healers (adjust as needed, depending on performance).  You want a mix of mages and warlocks (You'll want enough warlocks to banish adds on Garr that aren't tanked, and 4 mages for sheeps on the Domo fight).  At least 2 hunters for tranquilizing shot, but in MC and into BWL their dps is good enough, so don't be afraid to bring more.  1 shadow priest is good, and we have an enhance shaman running Nightfall, but feral/boom druids and elemental shaman don't add enough to be worthwhile.  If you just need to fill 40 slots, take whoever you can get, but you'll need to optimize the raid the further you go.

Raid Leading:  Have a primary raid leader, but delegate responsibilities as they make sense.  Having a healer in charge of healing assignments separate from the main RL is important.  Have class leads in charge of assigning polymorphs, banishes, decurse/demagics, tranq rotations, etc is important as it leaves the main RL open to deal with higher-level stuff.  Stress the importance of having voice-coms clear during a fight, with only authorized people making calls during the fight.  If the shit hits the fan, you need the clear voice-coms in order to stage a recovery.  Set the tone for the type of guild you want to be.  If you want to race for server firsts and clear-records, you'll have to set the tone accordingly.  I prefer a more relaxed environment, so we set reasonable but not outrageous goals and are more focused on having fun/laughing/joking (but get serious if we're having a rough night).

Addons:  In theory you can clear the game without the use of addons, but they sure make life a lot simpler.  We require Deadly Boss Mods, KTM Threat Meter, and a decursing mod I don't know the name of (as i'm not a decurser).  We also require the use of our voice-coms application so you can listen to raid calls.  What you choose to require is entirely up to your guild and what you find to be important.

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On 5/1/2017 at 0:28 PM, DKD420 said:

@Elviss

You say  2 Hunter and 10 range DD ( Mage, Warlock )

Why only 2 Hunter?

Sorry i play first time as a hunter and havnt raid in classic. I'm confused....

I remember when I raided in VG with my T1/ZG geared hunter that I would always sit in 8-10 dps ranking, even when using the optimal rotation. Their dps is not as good as other classes. I loved that we geared really fast though. Skills like serpent sting dont scale up with AP, so we fall even more as the content progresses.

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