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Buff Thunderfury (the not so legendary weapon)

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Thread has been derailed by the paladin duo yet again. Original discussion was about itemization progression, not which class the item is more appropriate for. 

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51 minutes ago, Mememaster said:

Thread has been derailed by the paladin duo yet again. Original discussion was about itemization progression, not which class the item is more appropriate for. 

Dude, the following items/abilities that I used each and everyday got nerfed to zero spell dmg scaling in order to follow original Blizzard progression timeline but did I go to the forums to bitch and moan about them?

- Force Reactive Disk

- Venomhide Poison

- Lifestealing enchant

If my own Guild Master doesn't want to bother using Thunderfury any longer, why should anyone else?

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=62911&Fight=1
- Atredes at 1253 DPS on Vaelstraz pre-TF nerf

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=63891&Fight=1
- Atredes at 983 DPS on Vaelstraz post-TF nerf

Look at his character screen now - he's gone back to CTS + Maladath setup since TF is such a DPS loss for him:

http://realmplayers.com/CharacterViewer.aspx?realm=Ana&player=Atredes

TLDR - stop bitching about Blizzard progression/itemization timelines because you have no right to complain compared to what Paladins have had to deal with.

Edited by Theloras

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8 hours ago, Theloras said:

Plask and Judgement back on Emerald Dream abusing Oil of Immolation on an industrial level or TF going to a Ret Paladin here on Elysium aside, what warrior or rogue would want this weapon in its current state?

I'm raiding with Edema Ruh now and our GM Atredes got his 2nd binding for his Rogue and made his TF the week before the change.

Since it got nerfed from One-Hand to Main-Hand only he is seriously considering not even using it at all and putting it in his bank:

https://forum.elysium-project.org/topic/40666-request-for-thunderfury-change-to-be-reverted-anathema/

If in the grand scheme of things your number one priority is maintaining the -20% attack speed debuff, then a Ret Paladin using Seal/Judgement of Righteousness will have MUCH higher uptime than a Fury Warrior using TF.

Never mind the fact that at 1.9 swing speed, it is not ideal for Fury as a Main-Hand weapon to begin with...

With the optimizations, tryharding and worldbuff stacking going on these days I'd say your main concern would be having the Tank putting out maximum TPS. Threat is more often a concern these days than tanks dying (except for a few bosses I suppose). However, I'm actually not disputing the fact that TF can indeed be utilized in a good way by a paladin, but I'm still maintaining my position that it's better used by a warrior tank.

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I would have left a supporting comment with first hand TF experience, but then I remembered DS hasn't gotten a TF since 2012.

 

However, I'd like to disagree with the consensus of "don't emulate items at their worst if you can't do it at their best" - It's a grey zone and you don't fix items just for the sake of fixing them, its not only a question of balance and immersion in players between eachother, but also in the pve environment. 

 

Soz, but I couldn't resist, at the very least it'll be a bump from here. 

Edited by Netherfrost

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9 hours ago, Theloras said:

I am currently using Nightfall with Seal/Judgement of Righteousness for Edema Ruh and my +15% spell dmg debuff uptime is insane - not to mention my passive healing from 8/8 Tier 1 set bonus + Judgement of Light:

https://forum.elysium-project.org/topic/41595-how-to-top-healing-meters-without-casting-a-single-heal/

The same would apply to Brock/Saphael getting Thunderfury for his 1Hand Ret DPS setup and rotation - in the hands of a Ret the debuff would be up basically all the time.

TLDR - I never miss a raid and provide great utility to my guild...and I'm not even Ret spec - I'm 11/26/14 Reck spec so I can also provide Blessing of Sanctuary to our raids as well.

Nobody cares about the debuff. It was the highest tps weapon in the game.

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10 hours ago, Theloras said:

Never mind the fact that at 1.9 swing speed, it is not ideal for Fury as a Main-Hand weapon to begin with...

Just out of interest, why does the swingspeed matters at all for a Fury?

8 hours ago, Theloras said:

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=62911&Fight=1
- Atredes at 1253 DPS on Vaelstraz pre-TF nerf

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=63891&Fight=1
- Atredes at 983 DPS on Vaelstraz post-TF nerf

Wait... is your GM really using a Sword on Vael? ... I... err.. well, what to say here...

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2 hours ago, Netherfrost said:

However, I'd like to disagree with the consensus of "don't emulate items at their worst if you can't do it at their best" - It's a grey zone and you don't fix items just for the sake of fixing them, its not only a question of balance and immersion in players between eachother, but also in the pve environment. 

Soz, but I couldn't resist, at the very least it'll be a bump from here. 

I'm questioning the mindset here. TF has changed almost every major patch, including a major TF nerf to its mechanic. That nerf was the major change to TF (as Blizzard reinstated the proc rate % changes). This nerf always existed on Anathema since its first launch. I believe it's MaNGOS default version (the worst TF, which Elysium chooses to emulate).

Instead of changing this weapon all the time (maintaining a different version for all 4 servers) in every major 1.XX.0 patch, including having to code the original TF version for Elysium/Zeth (which we never experienced on Anathema or Darrowshire) just keep the weapon as the default compromised version which Blizzard decided to do, and Nost did as well after constuctive discussion about the weapon. Please read Zetox's thread if you want a full picture as to why players such as myself think the most fair version of TF is the final version. 

This proc rate change is a simple compromise. The issue with Anathema especially is the Main-Hand change that has literally ruined this weapon for guilds and players that have worked for a damage dealer to recieve this weapon prior to any notice of this change. You have to remember Anathema is a server launched in Feb, 2015. Approximately 1.5 years active. A lot of existing guilds are hurt by "negative" unannounced changes. (See PvP gear drama for example)

Edit: Slightly OT - You can see the repercussion of negative changes in the community. Plask the OP wants to take a break because of negative itemization decisions out of the blue. NOPE guild has identified this as one of their problems. I, as one of the reporters of this weapon on old Nost that directly impacted its change, did not want to create a topic about this even though I had known for days because I honestly don't know why the Elysium team made retroactive changes to both TF and PvP sets, both of which have been already decisions argued over and made for Anathema, where is the continuity? Both have negatively impacted me personally as I chose to rank on old Nost because they said they would maintain the PvP armor to incentivise players to PvP high rank and Thunderfury change which a few testers in the community wrote detailed reports (including painstaking research by Zetox) of why the state of TF shouldn't be the worst version. 

Yet we have to rehash the same things again and again for multiple issues. So far no one from Elysium team has even responded to any of my or Plask's posts. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt as Anathema has bigger issues right now, but it wouldn't surprise me if this simply is ignored or rejected.

Edit 2: Anathema just returned as I edited this post with my final thoughts. Perhaps we can get a response soon.

Edited by Walgrave

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55 minutes ago, Walgrave said:

I'm questioning the mindset here. TF has changed almost every major patch, including a major TF nerf to its mechanic. That nerf was the major change to TF (as Blizzard reinstated the proc rate % changes). This nerf always existed on Anathema since its first launch. I believe it's MaNGOS default version (the worst TF, which Elysium chooses to emulate).

Instead of changing this weapon all the time (maintaining a different version for all 4 servers) in every major 1.XX.0 patch, including having to code the original TF version for Elysium/Zeth (which we never experienced on Anathema or Darrowshire) just keep the weapon as the default compromised version which Blizzard decided to do, and Nost did as well after constuctive discussion about the weapon. Please read Zetox's thread if you want a full picture as to why players such as myself think the most fair version of TF is the final version. 

This proc rate change is a simple compromise. The issue with Anathema especially is the Main-Hand change that has literally ruined this weapon for guilds and players that have worked for a damage dealer to recieve this weapon prior to any notice of this change. You have to remember Anathema is a server launched in Feb, 2015. Approximately 1.5 years active. A lot of existing guilds are hurt by "negative" unannounced changes. (See PvP gear drama for example)

Edit: Slightly OT - You can see the repercussion of negative changes in the community. Plask the OP wants to take a break because of negative itemization decisions out of the blue. NOPE guild has identified this as one of their problems. I, as one of the reporters of this weapon on old Nost that directly impacted its change, did not want to create a topic about this even though I had known for days because I honestly don't know why the Elysium team made retroactive changes to both TF and PvP sets, both of which have been already decisions argued over and made for Anathema, where is the continuity? Both have negatively impacted me personally as I chose to rank on old Nost because they said they would maintain the PvP armor to incentivise players to PvP high rank and Thunderfury change which a few testers in the community wrote detailed reports (including painstaking research by Zetox) of why the state of TF shouldn't be the worst version. 

Yet we have to rehash the same things again and again for multiple issues. So far no one from Elysium team has even responded to any of my or Plask's posts. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt as Anathema has bigger issues right now, but it wouldn't surprise me if this simply is ignored or rejected.

Edit 2: Anathema just returned as I edited this post with my final thoughts. Perhaps we can get a response soon.

I can confirm that after looking at the Elysium DB. No itemization patch modifies the PPM of thunderfury, and the PPM of thunderfury is 5.24. It's the stock mangos PPM. My suggestion is running following SQL query to change the PPM of thunderfury:

UPDATE item_template SET spellppmRate_1 = 7.8945 WHERE entry = 19019;

Edited by Plask

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1 hour ago, Walgrave said:

I'm questioning the mindset here. TF has changed almost every major patch, including a major TF nerf to its mechanic. That nerf was the major change to TF (as Blizzard reinstated the proc rate % changes). This nerf always existed on Anathema since its first launch. I believe it's MaNGOS default version (the worst TF, which Elysium chooses to emulate).

Instead of changing this weapon all the time (maintaining a different version for all 4 servers) in every major 1.XX.0 patch, including having to code the original TF version for Elysium/Zeth (which we never experienced on Anathema or Darrowshire) just keep the weapon as the default compromised version which Blizzard decided to do, and Nost did as well after constuctive discussion about the weapon. Please read Zetox's thread if you want a full picture as to why players such as myself think the most fair version of TF is the final version.

The Buffs,Nerfs and changes to Thunderfury was according to the following Patches for the following reasons :

1- Not all the raids was equal regarding the "Difficulty" and Progress , there was reason why on specific patch it was working on a specific way.

Patch 1.8.0 (2005-10-10): The Thunderfury effect's spell damage will no longer be increased by other item effects.

Patch 1.8.4

December 17-22, 2005 – Multiple Poster’s talking about 15% and 18% Static Proc Chance

Patch 1.9

Jan 2,2006– (day before patch) – Thunderfury Proc Rate Nerfed, and Cannot Proc off itself and other damage effects ( poisons, trinkets, enchants etc). Q. “Actual proc-rate are not lowered, except on Thunderfury…..they changed it so that On Next Swing abilities don’t have a chance to proc twice on hit (like they do now), and so that you can’t proc off a proc.

2- Thunderfury got nerf during the patch 1.8 with the proc to not scale off spell damage etc, since this Patch did offer plenty of Spell Damage Gear and it was simple too overpowered with Spell Damage to use.

Patch 1.10.1

April 16 – Cites 19% auto attack Proc Chance – CTRL + F “actual proc rate” to find Q:“actual proc rate is around 19% on auto attack”

Patch 1.12.0 (2006-08-22): Thunderfury may be equipped in either hand.

November 17 - 2015

– Cites going off about 20-25% of attacks.

3- Thunderfury got buff during Naxx era because the Raid is more difficult and require more efforts than the previous contents , as such people had more Gear so the procs had to match their Gear standards and boost the threats for that reason.

Another fact why this was allowed to use on either hand is that during Naxx era  , Thunderfury is nearly useless unlike the Weapons which Naxx Raid offers to the Players.

4- It was never meant to proc "always 25%" this was never proven to be fixed proc rate,  it was between 20%-25% which mean the proc rate should indeed variate.

5- This server have 1.9 Patch and it should be according to the explanation of number 2.

6- If this item get Buffed then Elysium should buff every single items since it will be unfair if you are the only one getting something NOT Blizzlike (according to the patch) and everyone else should stick with their Gear which is NOT 1.12.

Speaking about negative impact = Rage Mechanic was also nerf and this had huge impact to all of the Warriors.

Tthis is just reality of kids crying back in the days and reason why today Retail World of Warcraft is such "Easy Auto Pilot" Mode.

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited by killerduki

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Killerduki here just claimed in this thread that TF is better for Paladins than Warriors guys, so I would take things he says with a grain of salt by default. And his claims are almost always easily refuted, much like this latest post. I don't understand why he is so outspoken without necessary knowledge of the topics involved, or really, why he involves himself in topics he has little creditably in. Just taking points of out of sources and spinning it with your own interpretation does not make it true. So Seal of Righteousness gives Paladins twice the proc rate, therefore it is better for Paladins than Warriors? Take a step back and review why Warriors use TF before you make such claims. 

Regarding his post, TF was not nerfed or buffed based on current content available. This is a bogus claim again. TF was changed multiple amount of times due to feedback of it being strong (early on, 30% + proccing off other stuff and itself, especially in PvP) than eventually it was over nerfed to where people banked the item and the outcry of the community which is why it was buffed back again. Naxxramas content and Thunderfury being linked has 0 evidence. During this content people banked TF because of the low proc rate even at 20%, especially the DPS because it was still MH. It was OneHand the patch after Naxxramas (Patch 1.12.0, the same patch it was confirmed to be buffed back to 25) this is all after Naxxramas. Thunderfury is not "nearly useless" for melee because Naxx offers better weapons, this shows your ignorance of your claims once again. It is literally the best offhand for Rogues until Kel'Thuzad's swordhttp://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=23054 (Edit: corrected link, posted KT's other sword)

Did I claim it was "always 25%"? I said it was a compromise by Blizzard and old Nost team alike. It already does not proc off itself, poisons, trinkets, enchants and it does not scale with SP. Thunderfury proc mechanic nerf =/= Thunderfury not scaling with Spell power nerf. The former is the main nerf to this weapon. It is the ability for it to proc from other damaging effects like rogue poisons/trinkets (HoJ/Maelstrom)/Enchants like Lifestealing/Windfury and so forth. 

I feel like a broken tape recorder at this point. @killerduki You do disservice to your own credibility by making wild guesses and assumptions. 

Below is a video of the pre-nerfed Thunderfury in action in the hands of a Fury Warrior. (One of the reasons the community called for nerfs)

 

Edited by Walgrave

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It's simple, the game should be on set on the last patch for vanilla, meaning TF should be buffed, too bad if warriors get nerfed and it's not a reason to keep example #2, TB was buffed back for a reason b/c it was shit, and warriors probably got nerfed for being so OP that late in the game.

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33 minutes ago, TTL said:

It's simple, the game should be on set on the last patch for vanilla, meaning TF should be buffed, too bad if warriors get nerfed and it's not a reason to keep example #2, TB was buffed back for a reason b/c it was shit, and warriors probably got nerfed for being so OP that late in the game.

The funny thing is that there is no itemization patch that is changing Thunderfury procrate at all on Elysium. It's stock mangos through all their patches. I guess the only time stock mangos is a good thing when you don't get affected by it :)

Edited by Plask

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2 hours ago, TTL said:

It's simple, the game should be on set on the last patch for vanilla, meaning TF should be buffed, too bad if warriors get nerfed and it's not a reason to keep example #2, TB was buffed back for a reason b/c it was shit, and warriors probably got nerfed for being so OP that late in the game.

You're playing on the wrong server then dude - if the devs do what you want then give me back my spell damage scaling on

- Force Reactive Disk

- Venomhide Poison

- Lifestealing Enchant

- Fiery Plate Gauntlets

And we'll call it even.

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3 hours ago, Walgrave said:

Killerduki here just claimed in this thread that TF is better for Paladins than Warriors guys, so I would take things he says with a grain of salt by default. And his claims are almost always easily refuted, much like this latest post. I don't understand why he is so outspoken without necessary knowledge of the topics involved, or really, why he involves himself in topics he has little creditably in. Just taking points of out of sources and spinning it with your own interpretation does not make it true. So Seal of Righteousness gives Paladins twice the proc rate, therefore it is better for Paladins than Warriors? Take a step back and review why Warriors use TF before you make such claims. 

Regarding his post, TF was not nerfed or buffed based on current content available. This is a bogus claim again. TF was changed multiple amount of times due to feedback of it being strong (early on, 30% + proccing off other stuff and itself, especially in PvP) than eventually it was over nerfed to where people banked the item and the outcry of the community which is why it was buffed back again. Naxxramas content and Thunderfury being linked has 0 evidence. During this content people banked TF because of the low proc rate even at 20%, especially the DPS because it was still MH. It was OneHand the patch after Naxxramas (Patch 1.12.0, the same patch it was confirmed to be buffed back to 25) this is all after Naxxramas. Thunderfury is not "nearly useless" for melee because Naxx offers better weapons, this shows your ignorance of your claims once again. It is literally the best offhand for Rogues until Kel'Thuzad's swordhttp://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=23054 (Edit: corrected link, posted KT's other sword)

Did I claim it was "always 25%"? I said it was a compromise by Blizzard and old Nost team alike. It already does not proc off itself, poisons, trinkets, enchants and it does not scale with SP. Thunderfury proc mechanic nerf =/= Thunderfury not scaling with Spell power nerf. The former is the main nerf to this weapon. It is the ability for it to proc from other damaging effects like rogue poisons/trinkets (HoJ/Maelstrom)/Enchants like Lifestealing/Windfury and so forth. 

I feel like a broken tape recorder at this point. @killerduki You do disservice to your own credibility by making wild guesses and assumptions. 

Below is a video of the pre-nerfed Thunderfury in action in the hands of a Fury Warrior. (One of the reasons the community called for nerfs)

 

According to your logic since you point that my opinion should be irrelevant because i am talking Paladins:

Deathbone Set should also be 1.12 Patch , since "items should work like 1.12",

Paladin T2 should never been changed . since over the Patches it was 3 times changed (exactly like Thunderfury), 1st Was Retri and Heal , 2nd was Heal and 3rd was Retribution.

Thunderfury should follow the same logic as Tier 2 Items were , otherwise for someone will be fair while for many goes unfair , because some Thunderfury minority want to Abuse.

Just deal with that and accept the Patch 1.9 , it is meant to work like that and Period.

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited by killerduki

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Tbh, they should remove thunderfury from the game. Everyone satisfied or everyone pissed off, done.

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Abuse? We want to abuse Thunderfury? Did any of us ask for a Thunderfury with 30% proc rate and proccing from itself/enchants/poisons/trinkets and scaling with spell power? Did anyone ask for this? Because that is abuse. That is wanting an overpowered, imbalanced item which existed in Vanilla from Patch 1.6 - Patch 1.8. After 1.8 that item proc mechanic remained overpowered, proc rate changed. Than proc mechanic was nerfed, than the proc rate was increased. See the pattern? It was being balanced around player feedback.

We want a Thunderfury that works. Not too strong, not too weak. This was the point of the 7-page discussion on Nostalrius, who decided we were right. They fixed the weapon and kept it at 25% for all content, all patches. So, no Killerduki, this is not abuse. This is feedback. 

Edited by Walgrave

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14 minutes ago, Walgrave said:

Abuse? We want to abuse Thunderfury? Did any of us ask for a Thunderfury with 30% proc rate and proccing from itself/enchants/poisons/trinkets and scaling with spell power? Did anyone ask for this? Because that is abuse. That is wanting an overpowered, imbalanced item which existed in Vanilla from Patch 1.6 - Patch 1.8. After 1.8 that item proc mechanic remained overpowered, proc rate changed. Than proc mechanic was nerfed, than the proc rate was increased. See the pattern? It was being balanced around player feedback.

We want a Thunderfury that works. Not too strong, not too weak. This was the point of the 7-page discussion on Nostalrius, who decided we were right. They fixed the weapon and kept it at 25% for all content, all patches. So, no Killerduki, this is not abuse. This is feedback. 

Which completely goes against progressive itemization philosophy originally implemented by Nostalrius and continued here on Elysium...if you want 1.12.1 then go play on Feenix.

My Tier 2 Judgement set pieces have literally been rotting in my bank for over a year going back to Nost and I've only now brought them out again since the 1.9 patch here.

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On 3/14/2017 at 2:54 AM, killerduki said:

This Weapon is more viable to Paladin than to a Warrior, actually Warriors should never use it , since they have Thunderclap.

 

This is below /r/wowservers level of stupidity rofl

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Just now, bunbuns said:

This is below /r/wowservers level of stupidity rofl

with the 1.9 mainhand change/nerf it remains true though whether you want to insult people or not bro

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Hey Theloras, what about getting your facts straight or just improving your reading comprehension a tad bit ?

It has been explained here (and you can check on Nost forums) that the least worst version of the weapon (aka usable and good but not overpowered) is with 25% proc rate. That was Nostalrius design choice after a lot of research, digging and discussions.

There is no reason to render the weapon entirely useless here (other than satisfying those who don't have the weapon and are mad about it I guess) if the staff actually cares about their design choices (which is the case since a 100% progressive itemization is simply dumb and would detail towards progression on talents and class mechanics as well with all the "muh blizzlike" white-knights).

You don't have to spill your rage here that Nost didn't make the choice to buff your T2 Judgement set pieces. You can also stop feeling entitled to hijack every single thread to expose for the 2450th time paladin related bugs that needs fixing or not  when it is barely relevant with the actual topic.

Edited by Slicy

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2 minutes ago, Slicy said:

You don't have to spill your rage here that Nost didn't make the choice to buff your T2 Judgement set pieces. You can also stop feeling entitled to hijack every single thread to expose for the 2450th time paladin related bugs that needs fixing or not  when it is barely relevant with the actual topic.

That's why you don't have to spill the rage for Elysium making Thunderfury according to the Patch instead having it overpowered 25% which shouldn't be even 25%  but 20-25 (variate).

/Kind regards Killerduki

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They probably didn't even make it "according to the patch" on purpose you know ? xD

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