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Plask

Buff Thunderfury (the not so legendary weapon)

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As some Thunderfury (TF) users probably are aware of, during 1.9 patch release on Anathema TF received a stealth nerf reducing it's procrate from 25% to 15%. While it actually got nerfed for 2 patches by blizzard to 15%, it got buffed again later on as it simply wasn't worth using after the nerfs. Current state of TF would make sense if the itemization patches were consistent, but we have for example buffed PvP gear that didn't come until later patches as it would remove the incentive for PvPing otherwise. Also there is the fact that TF was never in it's overpowering pre 1.8 state where the proc was around 25-30% and could proc of ANYTHING. On Nostalrius, TF started out at 15% procrate but later on got buffed to 25% to match their other itemization choices (such as PvP gear for example). 

The important thing here to note is that since the weapon was never emulated in the strongest state nor did Nostalrius have the intention to do so, they choose to not emulate it's worst state.

To Summarize

1. Considering the PvP Gear are kept at their latest version according to Nostalrius item patches, Thunderfury should be no exception. It should have the procrate 25% that it had on Nostalrius (It used to be 15% but they buffed it to 25%).
2. Thunderfury was never at it's pre 1.8 state where it could proc from maelstrom, HoJ, poisons etc with procrate of 30%. It's worst state is being emulated while it's best state never was. If you cannot emulate the best state you should not emulate the worst either.
3. Nost intentions was never to make Thunderfury useless like blizzard did, nor keep it overpowered as in it's original state. They instead choose to put it in it's 1.12 state as a compromise to still make it useful.

4. No itemization patches alters the PPM of Thunderfury, and Thunderfury has stock mangos 5.24 PPM (source: Elysium database https://github.com/elysium-project)

I suggest the following two solutions:

  • Nerf all gear that are using itemization newer than current patch 1.9, such as PvP gear which got buffed in Naxxramas patch
  • Buff Thunderfury to 25% procrate

I made a bugtracker post https://elysium-project.org/bugtracker/issue/3649 for the issue, if you also want legendaries in this nostalgic game to actually be legendary, feel free to upvote and contribute to it!

Suggested fix:

UPDATE item_template SET spellppmRate_1 = 7.8945 WHERE entry = 19019;

It would either need to be applied to every itemization patch from when TF got attainable or just manually applied to the database. Since there is no patch altering TF ppm at all any of those should work.

/out

Edited by Plask

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Excellent bug report, Plask. I encourage people to read it in order to better grasp the history of TF. (Credits to Zetox as well)

Tested this myself a few days ago and found a similar proc rate nerf. 

What I feel the team is missing here: Thunderfury was essentially nerfed massively due to it's nature of proccing of itself, poisons, trinkets, enchants, etc. You can see this thought process in the timeline of the "Triple nerfs", the main being the nerf to the proc mechanic. Thunderfury on old nost, now Anathema, never had the mechanic of proccing off itself or other damage effects. I tested this personally on Live servers, including the proc rate and single/aoe threat generation in November, 2015 and posted the results on Nost's forums including their bug tracker confirming Zetox's conclusions from the stress test pre-Nostalrius launch. (The original posts are still on their forums, if anyone wants I can link it to them in PM)

A few weeks after my post, their team adjusted the proc rate to 25%. The reason being clear that this weapon was adjusted many times in vanilla but the version emulated on their core was the most nerfed version making the weapon a lot less beneficial to acquire or use. The community backlash faced by Blizzard for overnerfing the weapon (from it's 30%, proccing off of itself and other damage effects) forced them to readjust this weapon, ending at 25% proc rate without its ability to proc off of itself or other dmg effects.

The overpowered version of TF never existed on Anathema (Mangos), yet for some reason we go out of our way to emulate it's most nerfed version?

I request that the team readjust this weapon to 25%, and leave it be. For Anathema and other servers as well. If the most strongest version can't be emulated, the worst should not be either.

 

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As a 1-binding-chump I'd also like to get it "properly" fixed until I get my other binding. Speaking of legendaries, anyone gotten around to testing if Sulfuras procs are correctly tuned here? I got it both here and on retail but I havnt been able to test it out yet. I would assume the proc on retail is unchanged from vanilla days since there's never really been a reason to do that. TF was nerfed in TBC as we know due to the fact that tanks was using it well into TBC endgame due to lack of a "real" upgrade.

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4 hours ago, Walgrave said:

I request that the team readjust this weapon to 25%, and leave it be. For Anathema and other servers as well. If the most strongest version can't be emulated, the worst should not be either.

Amen. This. 

I really didn't expect them to touch Thunderfury as it was already balanced between the different states. Of course this is not Nostalrius but Anathema kept their philosophy for PvP items so I figured they would stay consistent with Thunderfury aswell. The decision to not emulate best nor worst state on Nost makes sense aswell from a balance perspective. This weapon is not really a legendary nor that great when you put it in it's worst state.. and it's relevance for the game is diminished. We already know the outrage from PvP community when PvP gear was nerfed to pre 1.1 stats.. Some compromises has to be made imo.

Edited by Plask

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I commend the Elysium team trying to revert mechanics of items alongside stats to earlier states to accurately emulate vanilla, it is a very positive thing. However, I highlight my earlier point that the original (overpowered) TF never existed on Anathema. We only had the most-nerfed version on Anathema until the previous team compromised and gave us a 25% proc rate TF (which Blizz eventually did as well) ~2 months before it shutdown. 

The debate should be really about the 2nd nerf Elysium applied to TF which is completely new as far as I know in the private server scene. Haven't seen any other team reverting the weapon to its original "Main-Hand" only state. 

History of TF by Zetox: (Brief version quoted below)

Quote

Blizzard’s ‘Official’ Vanilla Timeline History 
Patch 1.12.0 (22-Aug-2006): Thunderfury may be equipped in either hand.
 Patch 1.9.0(3-January-2006): The attack speed slowing effect from Thunderfury has been reduced to 20%, and no longer stacks with other such effects such as Thunderclap. The rate at which the weapon procs has also been lowered.
 Patch 1.8.0 (10-Oct-2005): The Thunderfury effect's spell damage will no longer be increased by other item effects.
 Patch 1.6.0 (12-Jul-2005): Added.
Source: http://www.wowwiki.com/Thunderfury,_Ble ... Windseeker 
Source: http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_1.9.0 
Note: The 1.9 Patch Nerf also took away the ability for Thunderfury to proc from itself not from the AOE debuff portion, but rather from the single target 300+ damage component which you’ll later hear referenced by many users and in our video response.

Patch 1.12.0 is when TF changed to One-Hand. Only one other project tried to emulate original vanilla itemization. As you can see, Zetox had reported the original TF during the stress test Feb 07, 2015. That team did not change TF; no buff to 25%, no MH only state. When I made my post in the very thread Zetox authored, their QA team lead Nano replied and it got to reach Daemon who applied the 25% proc rate compromise seeing the arguments made.

The TF I acquired (5th on the server) was originally going to our GM, a rogue, who decided I should get it instead as MT. (Thanks Clay, total bro) This is because the discovery and discussion of TF MH only got into the mainstream forum discussion very late into the server's life (near the shutdown). Nothing was done to this weapon because many guilds already gave their dedicated damage dealers (Rogue/Fury) this weapon, or part of this weapon after hundreds of hours of grinding. This change is far too late for a servers like Anathema or even Darrowshire. Decisions made by guilds and hundreds of hours invested by DPS can't be reverted, all of that effort is totally wasted until the end of Anathema (patch 1.12) when they get to use this weapon again. 

Once again, thanks for all the work, Elysium team, the attention to detail of these item and mechanic reversions is nothing short of awesome. Please be careful though with retroactively making decisions to nerf such incredibly difficult to obtain items. The effort that has been invested by the players and their guilds to acquire such legendary weapons (not to mention the prayers for Bindings) can't be underestimated and their experience in Vanilla not diminished for the sake of retroactive changes. 

 

Edited by Walgrave

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There are duplicates of this thread unfortunately (Warrior forums). So I'm posting my comment there to this thread for anyone wanting a quick recap.
 

@killerduki said:

Quote

 

So many items got nerf , like Deathbone , Ironfoe etc etc .

Why do you guys want something to work as 1.12 when it is 1.9 Patch ?

This should be invalid until late patch.

Otherwise - Give Upgrades on all Gear...

 

My reply to him:

Quote

 

As for Killerduki. There was a different TF nearly every major patch. The earlier patches (strongest TF - 30% proc rate and proccing from itself/poisons/trinkets/enchants) was never emulated on any project. Old Nost also had the worst version of TF (15% and no proccing off itself/poisons/trinkets/enchants) until Zetox, myself, Armilus and others pointed it out to Nost team. Old nost compromised (like Blizzard did) to keep the nerfed proccing mechanic, but change proc rate to 25%. This is the balanced TF version. Rest of the TFs were too strong, or too weak. Elysium chooses to emulate the too weak TF only, literally the worst version of TF and ignore the strong glory day TF versions. This is inconsistent, unfair and absolutely a slap in the face for players who worked hard to acquire the weapon. 

In Patch 1.9 on Sunday 5th of March, Elysium decided to make 2 changes; first they nerfed TF to 15% proc rate (so now TF has gone from 15%->25%->15% on Anathema in its full history) and second they made TF Main-Hand only. TF became One-Hand in patch 1.12.0. The MH change was not done on Nost, the devs realized it was supposed to be MH only very late into the life of Anathema (1 year+ since launch) because already guilds in the community gave TF to dedicated damage dealers to use as Off-Hand months before people talked about that TF should be MH only. An item can be reverted, but people's time and energy investment can't be reverted. It hurts the community that already invested hundreds of hours into getting said item. This is a legendary item, not Ironfoe that you can get from doing 15min Lava runs.

 

 

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I'm starting to understand why Nope mentioned the itemization drama as part of their reason leaving . It pisses me off more than I want to admit that I farmed this weapon for nothing, and that it's gonna be worthless until the servers endgame is reached. Nostalrius was able to make a reasonable compromise when looking over the circumstances but Elysium seems completely incapable of that kind of thought process. Yes, I'm stupid for expecting this to be Nostalrius and gonna stop ranting.

Time to take a break from this server.. hopefully it will have it's shit together in near future.

Edited by Plask

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I don't think that kinda of attitude helps anybody or persuades the one you're negotiating with to take you seriously. You undermine your own previous arguments just by bringing the whole "I'll quit since you did this" to the table. The argument about TF is the topic and the rest of us would like to hear from the Elysium team about this once they have Anathema up and running. 

Nerfing TF to its 1.9 state is actually understandable from a certain viewpoint. Perhaps they don't know of its history, like the Old Nost team. There's no need to think this will not be resolved. 

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Just now, Walgrave said:

I don't think that kinda of attitude helps anybody or persuades the one you're negotiating with to take you seriously. You undermine your own previous arguments just by bringing the whole "I'll quit since you did this" to the table. The argument about TF is the topic and the rest of us would like to hear from the Elysium team about this once they have Anathema up and running. 

Nerfing TF to its 1.9 state is actually understandable from a certain viewpoint. Perhaps they don't know of its history, like the Old Nost team. There's no need to think this will not be resolved. 

Maybe it will, maybe it won't. I know I'm definitely not helping the case and that's why I'm going out of the picture. Atleast someone brought it up now.

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1 hour ago, Plask said:

I'm starting to understand why Nope mentioned the itemization drama as part of their reason leaving . It pisses me off more than I want to admit that I farmed this weapon for nothing, and that it's gonna be worthless until the servers endgame is reached. Nostalrius was able to make a reasonable compromise when looking over the circumstances but Elysium seems completely incapable of that kind of thought process. Yes, I'm stupid for expecting this to be Nostalrius and gonna stop ranting.

Time to take a break from this server.. hopefully it will have it's shit together in near future.

If that is the case,  then why would any Paladin donate to any server "because this doesn't work like it need" ?

Heh and they call us Retard?! .... We saw who are the Retards right now . .. unfortunately. ..

That was the same < NOPE > who abused 40 Immolation Oil back in Peenix with Spell Damage stacking...

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited by killerduki

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8 minutes ago, killerduki said:

If that is the case,  then why would any Paladin donate to any server "because this doesn't work like it need" ?

Heh and they call us Retard?! .... We saw who are the Retards right now . .. unfortunately. ..

/Kind regards Killerduki

Yes.

Edited by Plask

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Agreed it should be changed to 25% chance to proc on white hit and yellow hit.

Anyways can anyone confirm if bindings can drop pre-BWL as long as someone got the shard of the bindings to drop first? The context on the timeline is a bit confusing.

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The autism of giving TF to a paladin is LITERALLY puttin my sides in orbit. Infact, they are already half-way to the andromeda galaxy.

Source: Am autist so I know it when I see it.

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10 minutes ago, Storfan said:

The autism of giving TF to a paladin is LITERALLY puttin my sides in orbit. Infact, they are already half-way to the andromeda galaxy.

Source: Am autist so I know it when I see it.

Let me teach you few things about your galaxy:

Just for your information since you are not aware of it.

Paladin using Seal of Righteousness have double chance to proc compare to anyone.

If Sword have 25% proc rate,  for Paladin this is 50% proc rate.

If sword have 15% proc rate, for Paladin this is 30% proc rate.

This Weapon is more viable to Paladin than to a Warrior, actually Warriors should never use it , since they have Thunderclap.

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited by killerduki

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14 hours ago, Plask said:

Time to take a break from this server.. hopefully it will have it's shit together in near future.

Quitting because of one item?

Damn, did you quit wow for good when TBC got launched? Since most quest greens replaced your hard earned vanilla raiding gear in notime.

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1 hour ago, smokeit said:

Quitting because of one item?

Damn, did you quit wow for good when TBC got launched? Since most quest greens replaced your hard earned vanilla raiding gear in notime.

The new Meme incoming soon < NOPE > and Thunderfury .

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited by killerduki

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Thunderfury was well investigated by Grave on Nostalrius forums, and I remember at least one admin approving his work.  I farmed the weapon based on the stats it had there (admins was aware it was in a balanced state), because it was actually good.

This nerf is not logical consistent with the buff of pvp gear, that i approve of, as it make gear balanced and worth getting. 

Personally I see no reason to make thunderfury weapon an roleplay weapon, as the nerf was obviously a mistake from blizzards side (why buff items from old content). 

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4 hours ago, killerduki said:

This Weapon is more viable to Paladin than to a Warrior, actually Warriors should never use it , since they have Thunderclap.

/Kind regards Killerduki

KeiQSS5.jpg

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14 hours ago, Storfan said:

The autism of giving TF to a paladin is LITERALLY puttin my sides in orbit. Infact, they are already half-way to the andromeda galaxy.

Source: Am autist so I know it when I see it.

Plask and Judgement back on Emerald Dream abusing Oil of Immolation on an industrial level or TF going to a Ret Paladin here on Elysium aside, what warrior or rogue would want this weapon in its current state?

I'm raiding with Edema Ruh now and our GM Atredes got his 2nd binding for his Rogue and made his TF the week before the change.

Since it got nerfed from One-Hand to Main-Hand only he is seriously considering not even using it at all and putting it in his bank:

https://forum.elysium-project.org/topic/40666-request-for-thunderfury-change-to-be-reverted-anathema/

If in the grand scheme of things your number one priority is maintaining the -20% attack speed debuff, then a Ret Paladin using Seal/Judgement of Righteousness will have MUCH higher uptime than a Fury Warrior using TF.

Never mind the fact that at 1.9 swing speed, it is not ideal for Fury as a Main-Hand weapon to begin with...

Edited by Theloras

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10 minutes ago, taladril said:

Giving thunderfury to a ret has a big downside. You always have to bring that ret to raids.

I am currently using Nightfall with Seal/Judgement of Righteousness for Edema Ruh and my +15% spell dmg debuff uptime is insane - not to mention my passive healing from 8/8 Tier 1 set bonus + Judgement of Light:

https://forum.elysium-project.org/topic/41595-how-to-top-healing-meters-without-casting-a-single-heal/

The same would apply to Brock/Saphael getting Thunderfury for his 1Hand Ret DPS setup and rotation - in the hands of a Ret the debuff would be up basically all the time.

TLDR - I never miss a raid and provide great utility to my guild...and I'm not even Ret spec - I'm 11/26/14 Reck spec so I can also provide Blessing of Sanctuary to our raids as well.

Edited by Theloras

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