Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Gandah

Speaking my mind about the Ignite by Benalius

Recommended Posts

Pottu could have approached Qgalskap in a diffrent way, i know making this guild with Pottu for President isn't solveing anything however, He could have made a less hateful approach as we say in Denmark, You are innocent until proven guilty, and he is not even a GM anymore, so comming with such a hateful commet out of nowhere is a bit strange when he doesn’t exactly know with 100% certaincy that bug abuse was the intention.
We had no idea that Power Infusion would cause this I mean look at Gotthardssons video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11M--EYik_s 46:35

This is apparently what all our mages and our priest got banned for, and apparently a lot of other mages from different guilds on both alliance and horde side.
Do you think people with the intention of bug abusing/exploit (call it what you want) would Stream / Upload a video like this to YouTube?
 

I mean this madness has to end, I understand this from the admins and GMs point of view as well who doesn’t want to make the server look bad in public so to say harming the servers Elysium Projects Reputation and also their good intention of making the server perfect to provide everyone with the best possible experience on the server that we all already once have lost, but have gotten another chance to play on thanks to them.

However Vanilla was never perfect I mean take a look at enhancement shamans stacking the nature damage buff from Stormstrike for an Elemental shaman to do crazy damage, also Retribution paladins one-shotting a world boss, warriors using nature damage and what not, all this proves that vanilla was never perfect, there is a reason that Blizzard didn’t go on with Vanilla, and made new expansions striving to achieve perfection so to say, and that they are very close to do with current retail wow in Legion where everything scales and feels balanced. However I don’t think that is what people who strives to play vanilla wants if you think about it this is a 12 year old game, so it’s obvious that people in time will learn all the tricks and the science about making a lot of debuffs help causing tremendous damage.

We in Conspiracy knew that we could make the ignite tick for a lot, and have put a lot of thought into that, we will not deny that, since we have a mage going for max intellect and max crit spamming scorch with more than 55% crit with full world buffs with a low cast time fire spell preventing the ignite to drop off.

What we did not know is the fact that power infusion was what caused the ignites to roll as high as newly explored in the Sorry video https://streamable.com/7ya86 on C’thun where the Ignite on a vulnerable C’thun the end boss of the newly released content appears to be “just a joke” can seem like a problem to the server and that it is something that has to be fixed.

Which leads me to this that if we really wanted to intentionally exploit don’t you think we would have tried to hide it and avoid publicity, when what we really have done is the complete opposite like uploading a video to YouTube, streaming and uploading logs, do you think we would have done any of this well-knowing that we were exploiting something?

I know that it might seem like that to some people who see or learns about this on second hand, but why is it not allways the mage who got the ignite in our run who gets the power infusion?

Also I know that this is a problem, but you could have approached us, asking us what we know about the matter before you were swinging the banhammer on all our mages, coz if this is exploiting we would gladly provide any info needed in order to fix the issue if that would be the case
 

However this is also a matter of server vs players, I know that both the server and the players doesn’t want to be blamed because who want to take blame?
It is a kinda like a split so to say, if this really is a bug on the server who is then to blame?
The people in charge of the server which has the bug? Or the players abusing it?
And as much as I have turned it around back and forth this is how I see it atleast as above mentioned no one has to take blame for anything because it’s not about who’s blame it is, that doesn’t matter, what matters is if this really is a bug then it has to be fixed, I know we as players are Obliged to report bugs, but if a player is unaware of the abuseing anything, how can the player then report it?

No one want to be blamed for it, but instead casting mud, we should take a look at the problem and fix it together if it really is a bug then it should be certainly be fixed in the best possible way overacting by banning a lot of mages from a lot of guilds will not solve the problem.

I hope we as a community all see this now.

 


Yours Sincerely,

Benalius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Do you think people with the intention of bug abusing/exploit (call it what you want) would Stream / Upload a video like this to YouTube?

 

Quote

if a player is unaware of the abuseing anything, how can the player then report it?

This summarizes the situation pretty well. I don't see how you can justify a ban in those conditions. Especially when you know it happened in a ZG - like why would they exploit to kill Hakkar ? It's not like it's a difficult boss, or if they would gain anything by exploiting for that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We actually didn't get any loot from Hakkar this run (the vid), because the mage with aggro (the POV from vid) was mind controlled whilst the boss died. I submitted a ticket regarding loot, and we actually got the loot two days later for this "abusive" kill. If it actually was abusing, I would've thought the GM who awarded us the loot would tell us/ban us then, not months later... This all just reeks of unprofessionalism. The fun thing is, if you look at other kills we have, for instace my 3.5k world reckord dps at the fish boss, I didn't even have PI. It's NOT PI that's bugged. If something is bugged it's got to be how Ignite stack. The cooldowns like PI and Arcane Power only adds to the stacking, and I'm also suspecting that the PI/AP applies to the whole duration of Ignite, not just for it's own duration (as it should - remember this is vanilla, not legion). 

If anyone should be banned it's me. I am the Mage CL in Conspiracy, and I was the one preparing for this for months and months. I've done exstensive maths and countless spreadsheets to perfect the Ignite dmg. Would I have done this, and involved all my mages in this if I thought it was bannable? No. I simply believed, after reading a lot of sources online, that Ignite is working just as it should in a vanilla server. Why should I report something I don't personally think is a bug? If everyone reported everything they ever wondered, the elysium bugtracker would be a total shitfest. 

I can confirm everything Benalius has stated in OP. I take full responsibility for our ZG runs that basically broke the meters on every ZG boss we tried with our setup, involving a critmage & 9 other Ignite mages. We also tried it in MC once, but only worked properly in 1 try - 3500dps on golemagg, world #1. 

Like benalius is stating - do you really think we would have uploaded these logs/videos if we thought we were abusing? Do you really think we are that reckless/care so little? In fact, the reason me and many others have acted borderline childish and idiotic since ban yesterday is because we were caught so off guard in the mids of our AQ progression. So many months of exiting waiting for a fun experience with our amazing guild community, all down the drain because of a fun run where we actaully got NO benefits, apart from cool logs, 2months ago. 

 

The injustice I feel is hard to discribe. I lost my full bis mage (-2items), my Druid with eye of rag and very close to finished mats to craft Mace, and my biggest banks containing insane ammounts of valuables, Mounts, mats and ingots. Even tho I still have 2x lvl 60 good geared chars left on other accs, I feel there is no reason to keep playing at this serv now. I feel my next theorycrafting will just be concidered a new abuse, even tho I stay within the parameters of the game mechanics, since there seem to be no way for me to tell whats abusive exploiting or not.

- Nenyana

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When something seems to be too good to be true, it usually is the case that it isn't true. Or in this case, it's a bug and a number of guilds exploited that bug to easily kill bosses and trash in AQ40, AQ20 and ZG.

My outburst in Discord was unfortunate and I've apologized to Qgalskap. He was the latest in a long line of players who came into Discord, usually not identifying which guild/raid they were from, and then tried to turn the tables around by accusing us that it was somehow OUR fault, that WE forced YOU to exploit. This is what every exploiter always claims.

When a node instantly respawns and you farm dozens or hundreds of herbs/ore instead of reporting it, you get banned. When a mob gives excessive amount of XP and respawns near-instantly and you gain multiple levels per hour instead of reporting it, you get banned. When a buff/spell combo ticks for never-before-seen numbers and a raid continues to utilize it instead of reporting it, you get banned. Always in uncertain situation, make a ticket and STOP DOING IT. GMs will clarify the situation as soon as they can. I cannot stress this enough.

We are currently investigating this situation and separating the wheat from the chaff as they say. I expect some of the bans will be overturned and others commuted from permanent to a temporary suspension, which is why I suggest that everyone involved make a ban appeal if they have not done so yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Pottu said:

(...) When something seems to be too good to be true, it usually is the case that it isn't true. Or in this case, it's a bug and a number of guilds exploited that bug to easily kill bosses and trash in AQ40, AQ20 and ZG.

 
1

Banning us and giving reason "we looked at ur logs, you cheating exploiting scumbags".

If you actually had looked at our logs you would have seen that we only did it on bosses we had on easy free-loot farm. As I explained in above post, we even got loot from a GM for the Hakkar kill we got banned for. This all just makes no sense to me. 

28 minutes ago, Pottu said:

 When a buff/spell combo ticks for never-before-seen numbers and a raid continues to utilize it instead of reporting it, you get banned.

 
1

Never before seen numbers? One quick look at youtube prove u otherwise -> 

Our highest tickes ever isnt far from these numbers, and in this video is just seems like a lucky Ignite-rolling. We are actually basing our whole comp/gameplay around maxing Ignite dmg - ofc its going to get bigger than someone who didn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe there are at least 2 things to differentiate here :

- The possible bug from PI interaction with Combustion / Ignite / AP, pick your poison.

- The "blizzlike" bug with Ignite that allows you to ramp up its dmg if you keep on critting fire spells before the 1st tick of dmg (since it refreshes the DoT duration, it can go up to insane amounts until mages stop critting kinda). Blizzard has considered this to be a bug with the mechanic itself, hence why they gave every mage their OWN ignite debuff in TBC and didn't bother fixing the original Ignite.

The latter is just how the spell sadly works in vanilla. The first isn't and has been intentionally (ab)used in some cases apparently.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Nenyana said:

Banning us and giving reason "we looked at ur logs, you cheating exploiting scumbags".

If you actually had looked at our logs you would have seen that we only did it on bosses we had on easy free-loot farm. As I explained in above post, we even got loot from a GM for the Hakkar kill we got banned for. This all just makes no sense to me. 

Never before seen numbers? One quick look at youtube prove u otherwise -> 

Our highest tickes ever isnt far from these numbers, and in this video is just seems like a lucky Ignite-rolling. We are actually basing our whole comp/gameplay around maxing Ignite dmg - ofc its going to get bigger than someone who didn't.

Thaddius gives you +200% damage though... :) Find another video if you want to prove large numbers (I don't think you can though).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

When a node instantly respawns and you farm dozens or hundreds of herbs/ore instead of reporting it, you get banned. When a mob gives excessive amount of XP and respawns near-instantly and you gain multiple levels per hour instead of reporting it, you get banned. When a buff/spell combo ticks for never-before-seen numbers and a raid continues to utilize it instead of reporting it, you get banned.

In the 2 first examples, you gain an unfair in-game advantage over other players, hence the ban. Same for the third example if you do so in new content (i.e. AQ in our case). But in ZG for a guild that has it on farm for months... it's an entirely different story. At least that's my thought. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, so we did some digging to prove that 1) it's NOT PI that's bugged, and 2) we didn't intentionally put PI on the one who got the ignite. Since u can't track debuffs in raidstats, legacy logs is a much more reliable source of information when it comes to "proof" in this case. 

https://legacy-logs.com/Vanilla/Raids/Evaluation/DmgDone/index.php?rid=7161&attempts=351418,351427,351440,351449,351457,351463,351476,351483&player=&sel=0&pet=0&tarid=&mode=0

Take a look at these logs from a ZG some days after the run we apparently got banned for. I (Nenyana) is the only one receiving PI throughout the whole ZG run - yet I only crush the meters once. Nevertheless, we have other players able to get their Ignite to stack to insane numbers like this one where Mazkin (newly ranked with bad pve gear actually) get 2585 dps on Hakkar WITHOUT PI!. https://legacy-logs.com/Vanilla/Raids/Evaluation/DmgDone/index.php?rid=7161&attempts=351418,351427,351440,351449,351457,351463,351476,351483&player=54464&sel=351418&pet=0&tarid=&mode=0

If you examine all our logs from this time in ZG, you can find exactly the same proof over and over. We did NOT pair the Ignite with PI - PI was just assigned to our normal players (e.g. the ones who always get it in 40man raids), and the initial Ignite was FFA. 

So first of all PI is NOT bugged, neither is AP.

Second, Ignite is "bugged" in the way Slicy is saying, just like it was in original vanilla retail. Out of ALL the players outside our guild, devs and GMs I've seen spoken about it, Slicy is actually the only one that gets it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Scuba Cops has raided a few times with fire mages now and we have always used PI extensively. I don't believe we've ever managed to accidentally trigger this bug.

Maybe we are just really lucky but from our experience it's not something you can do by accident.

I would be interested to hear if Dreamstate and Coalition have similar experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Nenyana said:

Banning us and giving reason "we looked at ur logs, you cheating exploiting scumbags".

If you actually had looked at our logs you would have seen that we only did it on bosses we had on easy free-loot farm. As I explained in above post, we even got loot from a GM for the Hakkar kill we got banned for. This all just makes no sense to me. 

Never before seen numbers? One quick look at youtube prove u otherwise -> 

Our highest tickes ever isnt far from these numbers, and in this video is just seems like a lucky Ignite-rolling. We are actually basing our whole comp/gameplay around maxing Ignite dmg - ofc its going to get bigger than someone who didn't.

Each ++++ or each ----  increase by a % amount your Damage, which is legit Mechanic for "specific" Boss , this has nothing with "Every single Boss" .

Giving this as example is same as you give Chromaggus Arcane Vulnerability with Boomkin DPS to prove "Boomkin" dps as "viable" .

/Kind regards Killerduki

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He gives a +dmg bonus, yes. Yet we are actually comparing this to another example that also infact have the same dmg multiplier of 200% (<Sorry> C'thun kill). 

On a sidenote, kinda nice of u to join the debate killerduki, as it was u (iirc) who made the initial bug report to get ignite fixed? Actually, it might be the very same "fix" that has made Ignite work as intended back in retail vanilla. Sadly none seemingly understood fully what this actually ment. 

To me it is important to emphasize that we are actually getting punished for a ZG fun run that we got no gains ingame for. Being compared to someone who used it to down one of the most hardcore fights known to wow hist, pre-nerf c'thun, is just ridiculus in my opinion...

Why would we post logs and videos in open forums, share it with our friends etc. if we were, to quote Pottu "exploiting scumbags" planning to use this to gain unvaforable advantages in progression? Need I remind everyone we just spent 2 nights wiping on skeram before getting banned. The logical rationale of the ban just doesn't fit here...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Armilus said:

Scuba Cops has raided a few times with fire mages now and we have always used PI extensively. I don't believe we've ever managed to accidentally trigger this bug.

Maybe we are just really lucky but from our experience it's not something you can do by accident.

I would be interested to hear if Dreamstate and Coalition have similar experience.

 
 

That's because this bug has nothing to do with PI. The fact that the devs have found a correlation between high ignite ticks and PI is just a statistical error IMO (e.g. not done thorough enough research before banhammer + PI disable). I have seen plenty of logs, including own experience with very impressive ignite ticks without PI. I've even linked u logs with sick ignite dmg where I didn't have PI. In future I hope ppl will READ the posts before replying to them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Armilus said:

Scuba Cops has raided a few times with fire mages now and we have always used PI extensively. I don't believe we've ever managed to accidentally trigger this bug.

Maybe we are just really lucky but from our experience it's not something you can do by accident.

I would be interested to hear if Dreamstate and Coalition have similar experience.

We never had this bug / interaction either. Keep note though that Coalition's full clear was with insanely high resistances and armor on mobs (I'm unsure if it was trash and/or bosses, but remembering how our casters were hyped af when getting an actual spell hit instead of chain resists or partials, seems it was close to everything in the raid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Nenyana said:

He gives a +dmg bonus, yes. Yet we are actually comparing this to another example that also infact have the same dmg multiplier of 200% (<Sorry> C'thun kill). 

On a sidenote, kinda nice of u to join the debate killerduki, as it was u (iirc) who made the initial bug report to get ignite fixed? Actually, it might be the very same "fix" that has made Ignite work as intended back in retail vanilla. Sadly none seemingly understood fully what this actually ment. 

To me it is important to emphasize that we are actually getting punished for a ZG fun run that we got no gains ingame for. Being compared to someone who used it to down one of the most hardcore fights known to wow hist, pre-nerf c'thun, is just ridiculus in my opinion...

Why would we post logs and videos in open forums, share it with our friends etc. if we were, to quote Pottu "exploiting scumbags" planning to use this to gain unvaforable advantages in progression? Need I remind everyone we just spent 2 nights wiping on skeram before getting banned. The logical rationale of the ban just doesn't fit here...

There is no mechanic in the C'Thun fight that gives 200% damage increase. What are you talking about?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I heard C'thun takes double dmg in his vulnerable phase? I've never killed c'thun before, my guild didn't come past phase 1 in vanilla retail so. Please enlighten me if I'm wrong? Still a bit on the side of the point tho. ATM me and my fellow officers are studying all our old logs trying to find out how we bugged/abused it. We have no clue tbh...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Nenyana said:

I heard C'thun takes double dmg in his vulnerable phase? I've never killed c'thun before, my guild didn't come past phase 1 in vanilla retail so. Please enlighten me if I'm wrong? Still a bit on the side of the point tho. ATM me and my fellow officers are studying all out olød logs trying to find out how we bugged/abused it. We have no clue tbh.

He doesn't, he takes normal damage. I don't agree with you that it's beside the point. You bring it up as evidence that huge ignite ticks were a thing back then, when it in fact wasn't. Check these videos for example:

 and

And these guys most likely had gear that was way better than what your mages have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Nenyana said:

I heard C'thun takes double dmg in his vulnerable phase? I've never killed c'thun before, my guild didn't come past phase 1 in vanilla retail so. Please enlighten me if I'm wrong? Still a bit on the side of the point tho. ATM me and my fellow officers are studying all our old logs trying to find out how we bugged/abused it. We have no clue tbh...

What his "vulnerable phase" means is that he is simply taking normal damage as opposed to close to no damage at all when not weakened from killed tentacles inside the stomach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ait, keep in mind I had nothing to do with that kill, and I don't like comparing our fun-run ZG kills to a progressional c'thun kill in the 1st(?) day of progress. We have never ever come close to numbers like these anyway. when looking through our logs now we mostly find ticks of 8-12k, some few higher than that. Atm we're looking at this figth: https://legacy-logs.com/Vanilla/Raids/Evaluation/DmgDone/index.php?rid=7161&attempts=351418,351427,351440,351449,351457,351463,351476,351483&player=43307&sel=351483&pet=0&tarid=&mode=0

 

Look at the dmg spike at the end there: from 9k ignite to 17k in 2sec. We have no idea how we accomplished that, but we're trying to find out. I did not have PI in that fight, only MQG, Berserking and Combustion. The closest thing we've found to PI in this kill is that we found one guy (Mazkin) using AP 8 seconds before the huge Ignite increase, with his first crit 10 seconds into AP. My ignite builds from 4149 (exactly at the time the AP Fireball crit hits) to 9497 (2 secs later), and then a whopping 17018 Ignite 2sec after that. 

What do you guys think?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Nenyana said:

Ait, keep in mind I had nothing to do with that kill, and I don't like comparing our fun-run ZG kills to a progressional c'thun kill in the 1st(?) day of progress. We have never ever come close to numbers like these anyway. when looking through our logs now we mostly find ticks of 8-12k, some few higher than that. Atm we're looking at this figth: https://legacy-logs.com/Vanilla/Raids/Evaluation/DmgDone/index.php?rid=7161&attempts=351418,351427,351440,351449,351457,351463,351476,351483&player=43307&sel=351483&pet=0&tarid=&mode=0

 

Look at the dmg spike at the end there: from 9k ignite to 17k in 2sec. We have no idea how we accomplished that, but we're trying to find out. I did not have PI in that fight, only MQG, Berserking and Combustion. We have found one guy using AP 8 seconds before the huge Ignite increase, with his first crit 10 seconds into AP. My ignite builds from 4149 (exactly at the time the AP Fireball crit hits) to 9497 (2 secs later), and then a whopping 17018 Ignite 2sec after that. 

What do you guys think?

After the ban, we decided to test this on someone's personal server running on Anathema code. We gave each of the mages 100% critical strike, and he was able to get ignite to tick for 50k+ without Power Infusion. Testing with Power Infusion greatly accelerated the accumulation of ignite damage (it was ticking for 250k+). Ignite has been known to be an extremely difficult ability to code and Blizzard themselves changed it to where mages each get his/her own ignite. So the bug most likely lies within ignite and not Power Infusion or other modifiers like AP.

 

The chances for this bug to occur greatly increases with critical strike chance from world buffs and a higher number of mages.

See:

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Ignite_(old)#Known_bugs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've brought this issue multiple times , not just in Elysium but also back in Nostalrius too and even after merge too.

https://forum.elysium-project.org/topic/22298-ignite/

Posted September 25, 2016 (edited)

 

The problem is this :

1- It's been said by Nano that Ignite got fixed , i don't know if they "truly" fixed or either ignored my report.

2- Probably this got bugged when Nost core was removed and we switch to "Anathema" which was duplicate of Nost core.

 

And yep , i do believe the Guilds should been warned and Items removed from "Abuse" before the ban, and they should have fix the "Bug" which was already reported giving to community patch name calling it "fixed" which in reality proved that it wasn't "Fixed".

/Kind regards Killerduki

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

×