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Oakenlix

Rules regarding Aux's autobuy feature

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Advocating to allow currently bannnable offenses due to botting because only a few get caught is simply not an argument to make.  You should be asking what can we do as a community to help the gms with this issue.

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1 minute ago, Hurricane2 said:

Advocating to allow currently bannnable offenses due to botting because only a few get caught is simply not an argument to make.  You should be asking what can we do as a community to help the gms with this issue.

It is though, if you just think about it. 

No rules should be unable to be enforced, and this is exactly what happens here. 

What we currently have is what I've described above - people who get reported in few cases get punished, but the vast majority is able to use it freely because it's simply impossible to track them unless someone reports it, and people usually only report when their stuff got sniped on neutral AH.

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The rule is being enforced which is why this thread exists.  You just don't agree with it.  Report botters if you think there's uneven enforcement.

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2 minutes ago, Hurricane2 said:

The rule is being enforced which is why this thread exists.  You just don't agree with it.  Report botters if you think there's uneven enforcement.

Lol what the fuck, do you even read anything I type? :D

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45 minutes ago, rawen45 said:

this addon is not against our rules for now and using it is allowed.
 

Of course this is not the addon that is is not allowed to use but one of its functions which makes an unnecessary human presence to buy things at AH.

And This functionnality was removed from clients API during patch 2.0.1 because Blizzard considered that it was not legitimate to use it.

"Trading, placing auction bids, querying LFG, crafting, and reloading the UI are only allowed interactively."

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Patch_2.0.1/API_changes

 

EDIT : didn't see the Pottu's answer before posting ; tyvm, Pottu, for clarifying this question.

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Big issue is that most people don't even know this is forbidden, hell, a lot of GM's even... 

Hurricane: OP's problem is, that unlike actual botting, there is abosolutely no way to tell if someone is actually "botting" making the rule extremely hard to enforce properly.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Ourk said:

Of course this is not the addon that is is not allowed to use but one of its functions which makes an unnecessary human presence to buy things at AH.

And This functionnality was removed from clients API during patch 2.0.1 because Blizzard considered that it was not legitimate to use it.

"Trading, placing auction bids, querying LFG, crafting, and reloading the UI are only allowed interactively."

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Patch_2.0.1/API_changes

Did you read the link? It was a reply to a one trick pony addon made specifically for autosniping, before this function was added into Aux.

Also a lot more functions were removed/restricted in the API in 2.0.1 because Blizzard figured they're bad for the game. For instance it completely broke Decursive.

Edit: sory for the doublepost, somehow this ended up in a new post instead of an edit of previous.

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6 minutes ago, rawen45 said:

Did you read the link? It was a reply to a one trick pony addon made specifically for autosniping, before this function was added into Aux.

I read the "FOR NOW" at the date of Thu Feb 11, 2016.

We are now 2017. Things, rules and people have the right to evolve.

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27 minutes ago, Oakenlix said:

Lol what the fuck, do you even read anything I type? :D

You are positing an opinion from a biased point of view that does not benefit the community in any way.  I read and understood your points and I disagree with you that in this instance botting should be allowed.

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11 minutes ago, Hurricane2 said:

You are positing an opinion from a biased point of view that does not benefit the community in any way.  I read and understood your points and I disagree with you that in this instance botting should be allowed.

- A lot of people use Aux and autobuy feature.

- Almost none of them get caught.

I'm fairly sure those are not my biased opinion but facts, and also the fact that I've been using auto-buy for 5 month before ever being contacted my a GM, and even that was only after I sniped some stuff from neutral AH and got reported by people who were upset about that.

And by the way, how does the community suffer from auto-buy feature? If anything, the market would be more active and healthier if more people were using it.

21 minutes ago, Ourk said:

I read the "FOR NOW" at the date of Thu Feb 11, 2016.

We are now 2017. Things, rules and people have the right to evolve.

Then why make a point based on feb 2016 post in the first place?

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"A lot of people use Aux and autobuy feature."  An assumption that is very likely to be incorrect.  I'd guess that maybe 10% of the server pop uses this add-on and only a small % of them use the part of it that is not allowed.

"Almost none of them get caught."  An assumption that is likely correct but irrelevant since botting is not allowed.

These are assumptions that led you to form the opinion that botting the AH should be allowed because you like it and you don't think it harms the community.  

I don't agree that it doesn't hurt the community.  As someone who does not bot the AH, allowing botters can only lower the chances of me buying out or winning a bid since botters can automatically do what I do manually.  

I shouldn't have to spell out self evident logic like this to explain why botting is bad.

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Many violations of the rules are only able to be enforced via player reports (or occasionally from a GM randomly encountering it), but that is not a reason to remove those rules. If you do violate the rules, you do so at your own risk and it doesn't matter whether you got away with it for 5 months or 5 minutes.

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3 hours ago, Hurricane2 said:

"A lot of people use Aux and autobuy feature."  An assumption that is very likely to be incorrect.  I'd guess that maybe 10% of the server pop uses this add-on and only a small % of them use the part of it that is not allowed.

Not gonna argue with that, but seeing Aux being in many recommended addon lists provided by known people I assume that it is indeed a lot. And even if you're right, 10% is huge in this context.

3 hours ago, Hurricane2 said:

"Almost none of them get caught."  An assumption that is likely correct but irrelevant since botting is not allowed.

It is relevant in the sense that it makes this rule non-existent in practise, and so this rule shouldn't be there in the first place, but we already been there and I see that you disagree with that for whatever reason.

3 hours ago, Hurricane2 said:

I don't agree that it doesn't hurt the community.  As someone who does not bot the AH, allowing botters can only lower the chances of me buying out or winning a bid since botters can automatically do what I do manually.  

I can see why you would think that, but you're confusing harm to some people with the advantage for other people, which is not always the same. Aux also allows you to sort auctions by price which gives you an advantage over someone who doesn't use it, yet nobody advocates for prohibiting Aux altogether. Same with any other addon - all of them give some sort of advantage to those who use it. And this is what you call "hurt the community".

A good way to tell whether something is good or bad in the game is to imagine everyone would use it. If every player used a farming bot, would that be good? Definitely not. Now, if everyone used auto-buy for things they are ready to buy anytime, what would be bad about it? Nothing really.

 

2 hours ago, Hudson said:

Many violations of the rules are only able to be enforced via player reports (or occasionally from a GM randomly encountering it), but that is not a reason to remove those rules. 

Yet it's not the same.

Yes, a farming bot would only be punished via player reports or GM encounter too, the difference here is that bot is being fairly obvious to everyone and any player can record a video and report him easily.

With auto-buy though, the only possible way it may happen is when someone has put something on AH and it got bought instantly, which also only happens on neutral AH because nobody ever snipes faction ones. I think you may agree, that those are very rare occasions, and someone who only uses auto-buy for a faction AH will most likely never get caught.

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I honestly do not think autobuy is healthy for the economy, as the sniping game devolves into making the perfect string and having better ping than everone else.

The risk of being sniped is crucial in my opinion, and very healthy for the game, as alliance and horde actually compete for the resources the server provides. There is a very good reason for the 15% neutral AH cut, the faction with stronger world presence will obviously have cheaper materials to enjoy, but the weaker side has more profit in it, free item transfer would make Alliance farming way less incetivized and competitive.

The real issue here is that without autobuy you are severely crippled in your ability to snipe, making it nearly impossible and basically handing over the hunting grounds to people considered cheaters.

 

We have really dug ourselves into a hole here and the only way out seems to be if Shirshig provides a legal alternative that can somewhat compete in speed.

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7 minutes ago, rawen45 said:

I honestly do not think autobuy is healthy for the economy, as the sniping game devolves into making the perfect string and having better ping than everone else.

The only people who get sniped are the people who tried to bypass the neutral AH 15% cut, so I say it's a well balanced risk-reward situation. You don't wanna get sniped - you put items on AH for normal value and not 1 copper. As for the ping and better-tuned addon, its beneficial in all aspects of the game and not just this one, and it's ok. 

7 minutes ago, rawen45 said:

The risk of being sniped is crucial in my opinion, and very healthy for the game, as alliance and horde actually compete for the resources the server provides. There is a very good reason for the 15% neutral AH cut, the faction with stronger world presence will obviously have cheaper materials to enjoy, but the weaker side has more profit in it, free item transfer would make Alliance farming way less incetivized and competitive.

I agree. Still I had no problems transferring stuff between factions myself. Auto-buy scanning isn't instant, and if you do it all quickly, I don't believe you could get sniped.

7 minutes ago, rawen45 said:

The real issue here is that without autobuy you are severely crippled in your ability to snipe, making it nearly impossible and basically handing over the hunting grounds to people considered cheaters.

If sniping is the problem, the rules should be made about neutral AH specifically, and not about auto-buy in general, in my opinion.

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Autobuy is no different than botting, and is detected the same exact way. I think this all comes down to how it is indistuinishable from actual botters, and because of this the rule that any form of automation is sanctionable exists. We've left this thread open because we encourage open dialogue about things that players believe should be changed, but I can definitely tell you that this is something that will not be considered for changing. We have caught plenty of players using functions like autobuy extremely maliciously, which is why we will never change this rule.

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2 minutes ago, Oakenlix said:

The only people who get sniped are the people who tried to bypass the neutral AH 15% cut, so I say it's a well balanced risk-reward situation. You don't wanna get sniped - you put items on AH for normal value and not 1 copper.

Not true, I ninja anything of value I can turn a beefy profit on.

5 minutes ago, Oakenlix said:

If sniping is the problem, the rules should be made about neutral AH specifically, and not about auto-buy in general, in my opinion.

Sniping isn't the problem, people are always going to cry about losing when trying to turn a risky profit/save on arbitrage. The problem is the principle itself, that you can do impactful things without actually playing yourself, but many addons take advantage of that, albeit nowhere near as extremely, and it's just a problem of the early WoW. A line must be drawn somewhere but it's tough when it can be barely enforced.

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16 minutes ago, Hamblin said:

We have caught plenty of players using functions like autobuy extremely maliciously, which is why we will never change this rule.

I'd love to know that you have a reliable way to catch people who break this rule, but I just can't think of any, and player reports isn't one either, in this case.

I imagine you have caught a lot of people via reports, but also you will most likely never catch the rest ~80% who uses auto-buy in a less malicious way and probably don't even know it's forbidden since it's not a 3rd party program but just an ingame addon, just like I assumed.

And don't get me wrong, I do dislike it when addons give too big advantage and I wish it wasn't possible for addons to do that. But once they exist, I want it to be a fair ground for everyone, which for now it isn't.

14 minutes ago, rawen45 said:

Not true, I ninja anything of value I can turn a beefy profit on.

Now sure what you mean, by sniping I mean mostly the stuff that was put on AH for an absurdly low price and not expected to be bought by someone else, of course 1 copper price might be an exxageration, but you get the idea.

But of course auto-buy is useful for anything else that can bring profit too.

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17 minutes ago, Hamblin said:

Autobuy is no different than botting, and is detected the same exact way. I think this all comes down to how it is indistuinishable from actual botters, and because of this the rule that any form of automation is sanctionable exists. We've left this thread open because we encourage open dialogue about things that players believe should be changed, but I can definitely tell you that this is something that will not be considered for changing. We have caught plenty of players using functions like autobuy extremely maliciously, which is why we will never change this rule.

My only issue with this is that as far as things like herb farming are concerned, you can compete with bots, as they can't (not that I'm aware of on this server) teleport all over the map and farm out all the nodes in minutes, also aren't as widespread. If simply sniping for items using autobuy is going to be always punished, there needs to be a strong push for this, as autobuy completely stifles out any competition not using it.

Now sure what you mean, by sniping I mean mostly the stuff that was put on AH for an absurdly low price and not expected to be bought by someone else, of course 1 copper price might be an exxageration, but you get the idea.

Some people feel safer posting stuff that's worth 100g+ for let's say 10g, that's where I come in.

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6 minutes ago, rawen45 said:

My only issue with this is that as far as things like herb farming are concerned, you can compete with bots, as they can't (not that I'm aware of on this server) teleport all over the map and farm out all the nodes in minutes, also aren't as widespread. If simply sniping for items using autobuy is going to be always punished, there needs to be a strong push for this, as autobuy completely stifles out any competition not using it.

That's not entirely true, as scanning the whole auction takes up to an hour, but it's still a valid point.

6 minutes ago, rawen45 said:

Some people feel safer posting stuff that's worth 100g+ for let's say 10g, that's where I come in.

Well, not sure how you do that, I only checked if the price was less than the vendor value and if the price was less than 3 coppers. Which of course didn't always work (I also bought quite a few Raw Longjaw Mud Snappers this way), but still good enough.

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I understand the point you are making here and will refer this thread to the lead staff. I think if something like this is so readily available and even advertised on our own forum, it is sort of sucky to realise automation like this is against the rules. I think the issue here is two pronged. You can use aux without using any sort of automation at all. Which is fine. But any autobuy feature is a definite no no and you will get caught. It is pretty obvious when investigating and we don't have much trouble identifying it.

 

So aux in itself is not against the rules, but a function on it is. I believe this should be viewed no different than a multihack that had some features that are completely okay, but some that will end up with your account being permanent banned.

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On 5/12/2017 at 6:09 AM, Oakenlix said:

Hello.

So using autobuy function of Aux addon counts as botting and is prohibited.

This makes very little sense to me, and my suggestion is to reconsider the rules for this case and allow autobuy, the reasons for that are:

1. It's an addon feature, and addons can only use the functions the game allows them to use. 

2. It's impossible to police effectively. I've been using Aux and autobuy since I started playing in January and today was the first time I was contacted by a GM about it. Given that this addon is very popular, I'm sure there are hundreds of other players who use autobuy regularly too. The only way to tell if someone buys something manually or using autobuy is to ask them about it. If you can't effectively prohibit something, there's no point prohibiting it, since it would only put the good players who want to follow the rules at a disadvantage but do nothing to all the people who'll keep using it without any concerns. 

3. It doesn't give that much advantage in the first place. If anything, it also makes the market more active the more people use autobuy. 

4. Come on, everyone uses it anyway.

Would very much appreciate if the GM team changed the rules regarding this, because at this point I feel like an idiot, bound by a promise not to use it yet knowing that most people most likely do. Thank you.

 

You would have to explain a little more indepth.

Can you set this program up to automatically buy items that get listed "cheap" or "below" a price you set in for? In that case it is indeed unfair and cheating. Players should be allowed to check the AH from time to time and find deals, not the person who has an auto-buy feature on and montioring the AH while busy jerking off.

If all it does is buy 20 stacks of items off the AH then I would find this no different then the bulk mailing add-on or listing single auction houses on it's own which is basically the same.

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10 hours ago, Oakenlix said:

 

With auto-buy though, the only possible way it may happen is when someone has put something on AH and it got bought instantly, which also only happens on neutral AH because nobody ever snipes faction ones. I think you may agree, that those are very rare occasions, and someone who only uses auto-buy for a faction AH will most likely never get caught.

Nvm I rest my case. Yes this is lame and should be bannable, this is considered "sniping" which is fine but using bots to do such should be banned period.

This gives players an unfair advantage, as they can snipe cheap items off the auction house without actually having to put the effort in to find them.

Even considering this not against the rules would be lame.

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@Hamblin

Thanks for the replies. I wish something would be done about it, but even if not, I guess I can live with that.

For example, a specific mention of Aux, or addons in general, in the ToU would be nice, since I'm sure many people assume just like I did that if it's an addon, then it's ok.

1 hour ago, TTL said:

This gives players an unfair advantage, as they can snipe cheap items off the auction house without actually having to put the effort in to find them.

Even considering this not against the rules would be lame.

This isn't as obvious as you might think. Any addon gives an advantage, some bigger than others, the definition of "fair" advantage can be tricky.

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