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3 hours ago, Caber said:

Limit respec costs please. 10g or something. You sure as fuck won't see me in a BG anymore because if the choice is between spending anywhere from 200-400g a week to do it... and just not doing it.... I'm just not doing it. I'm certainly not the only one in this predicament, and you could pull the assumption "well, I guess they're just not dedicated enough about pvp!" but I think I'm a bit of an antithesis to that one in a way, given that people who dont care much about pvp generally don't get server first r14.

Now I know, the argument that's usually made here is "BUT THAT'S NOT BLIZZLIKE! FUCK THAT! IT'S CUSTOM FUNSERVER DOGSHIT!"

The important counter-argument to this is that THIS SERVER ALREADY ISN'T BLIZZLIKE! And it's arguably not a bad thing, sometimes. Here's some relevant examples:

  • Relevant to gold economy that isn't blizzlike: various DM gold farming "finetuning" isn't exactly blizzlike either. We got nerfed possibilities for gold income here, but completely blizzlike goldsinks... hurts and I don't see the point.
  • Relevant to changes that benefit the PvP community a lot: AB is already out!

Given these two things are ALREADY HERE and ARE NOT BLIZZLIKE, why is "it's not blizzlike so it shouldn't be done" an argument? It isn't. I sure as fuck haven't heard anyone complain that AB being released is custom funserver bullshit because it's generally a great change that everyone enjoys.
Given that AB being added is a great change and certainly helps PvP be fresh and varied to an extent, I don't think there should be much hesitation to finetune other things that would benefit the community in this same way.

If your goal is making the pvp community last aslong as the pve community, then this is the number one way to do it, as it will help un-separate the two.

 

And let's be completely honest, respec costs are entirely fucking pointless to begin with. What were they thinking? Why necessiate someone to farm gold for hundreds of hours if all he wants to do is switch specs a lot? Was the purpose to "lock" people into one playstyle? Why would people have to be locked into one playstyle? Why is that a good thing? This is just my opinion and not at all related to the argument I'm making here, so please don't get sidetracked by this and mistakenly view it as point in favor i'm making. It's still true tho.

Also, in addition to all this, it would surely reduce raid logging because it will give more one-dimensional raid specced players more things to do in the world and would make the entire game more active.

The benefits of removing respec costs heavily outweight the (small to begin with) issue that it's not blizzlike in every aspect of the game, and there's a good reason so many servers do it.

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- Register for BGs at the innkeepers.

- Decrease the cost of the respec.

- Allow only premades vs premades and pugs vs pugs.

- Permaban dodgers, wintraders, BG exploiters and AFKers.

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Outside of Battlegrounds and Silithus gankings it seems that world pvp is something to be avoided because your time can be better well spent farming items and gold for raiding purposes. This is because of course players wish to be as efficient as possible. Vanilla pvp was different because people did it for the sake of pvp. There's nothing can be done on the side of the administration to remedy this.

 

I can think of one thing however: Make it so World Defense channel ACTUALLY works. On my retail server this is what we used to find and kill enemy players. And then they would call in their friends to help them and then we would call in our friends and so on. World Defense assists in generating content.

 

As for respec costs: Don't do it. Tons of people will bitch that Elysium is a FUN server now.

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8 hours ago, levran said:

Try to blizzards lessons, they know what players would to see in WoW.  They do multiqueue, remote registration, matchmaking by group and gear, etc.  Yes, most cases from later WoW but it work.

Which is why we're all here instead of retail...

People, please stop suggesting they make the game more casual friendly. That's precisely what killed WoW.

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World PvP is fine.  Sure, horde have numbers, but they're not used to fighting even matches so when you do get a few Ally together usually the horde lose.  

BG PvP is being hurt by two main things.  AFKers and pug vs premade.

There should be an easier tool to report AFKers and bug abusers (like right click name ---> report).  Then start handing out frequent and escalating bans for people who habitually AFK in BGs.  Not AFK as in "my cat knocked over my food so I left, went afk, and the bg kicked me", but AFK like "I stood at stables with a jump macro the whole game, not contributing to fights and letting the flag get capped in front of me while I was watching netflix"

Ques need to be handled fairly.  Queing as a raid can be fun.  Queing with friends is a desirable part of the game.  But it shouldn't be putting 15 warlords against 8 pugs all day.  Make the system bracketed by the que size of the group with four brackets.  1-4 players queing are pug/filler, you can have both sides filled with these without unbalancing it too bad.  5 players are a group, used as fillers for larger groups or matched against other groups of 5 with pugs.  6-10 players queing get matched with another group of 6-10 and then fill the rest of both sides with pugs.  11-15 get qued against another group of 11-15 and then fill with pugs.  

Make it mandatory for groups of 5 and over to be balanced by another group in their size bracket before their que will pop.  Now we have groups over 10 fighting another group over 10.  Even if some pugs get pulled in to fight a premade, at least they have a premade on their side too.

This will result in longer ques for premades.  So what?  If your goal is to have epic premade battles then you know you're going to have a good fight on your hands against another premade instead of a boring pubstomp.  If your goal is to maximize honor then either get good and beat other premades or que as a 4 man and co-ordinate the pugs you get put in with.  Now the pugs learn how to play, honor farmers keep pug games interesting by adding SMALL groups of organized players into the mix, and you have at least a chance of fighting off the other side in each game.  And premade players can still have a challenge and competition.

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10 minutes ago, Lifealert said:

As for respec costs: Don't do it. Tons of people will bitch that Elysium is a FUN server now.

What a terrible fucking fate for Elysium that would be. I only play on servers that absolutely are not labeled "fun" by any sources, and this would def ruin it all for me.

 

It's also funny that you say world pvp has to be avoided because farming gold is more important... while you defend keeping a completely pointless goldsink in the game. You're literally making a point against yourself.

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  • In the game's current state (At least on Elysium), there is very little incentive for queuing for BG's unless you are a hardcore ranker
    1. Respec costs are too high.  While I believe this has a negative effect on the player base as a whole, I think this has a larger effect on individuals that are not hardcore rankers. It takes a substantial amount of gold &  time spent farming honour for most people to justify it being worth 50g every respec, this alone is a huge deterrent for casual players & less hardcore rankers. A solution would be to reduce the cap for changing specs to 10-20g.
    2. The vast majority of games include a premade stomping a pug
    3. Queue times are often horribly long
    4. PVP Gear isn't that great (I'm not saying it should be improved, just listing reasons)
  • I understand that this is a very complicated issue, because as soon as you prevent players from forming full premades, you are likely upsetting many hardcore rankers.  Because of this, I believe you should first aim to increase participation in battlegrounds. Lowering respect costs would likely result in much more players doing BG's, which would help the premade problem as well as the queue time problem. 
  • If you have implemented this, and after a month or so there are still massive issues with queue times and premades, then at this point maybe consider limited the number of people you can queue with for battlegrounds 
  • Overall, I think if you take measures to increase battleground participation amongst less hardcore players, it will be healthy for the PVP system as a whole.

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Just now, Caber said:

What a terrible fucking fate for Elysium that would be. I only play on servers that absolutely are not labeled "fun" by any sources, and this would def ruin it all for me

What is Elysium known for? Providing a vanilla experience that tries to be as authentic as possible (blizzlike). Once you start adding custom changes that drives people away because now it has become a CUSTOM server in their eyes. Then people start crying FUN SERVER! FUN SERVER!

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Just now, Lifealert said:

What is Elysium known for? Providing a vanilla experience that tries to be as authentic as possible (blizzlike). Once you start adding custom changes that drives people away because now it has become a CUSTOM server in their eyes. Then people start crying FUN SERVER! FUN SERVER!

Do you enjoy playing AB on Ely + Zeth'kur?

Too bad, that's not blizzlike. You've been enjoying a funserver and you haven't cared so far because... it's fun. Wow!

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5 minutes ago, Lifealert said:

Arathi Basin isn't custom content you dumbass. Something like Azshara Crater would be.

Content that is in the game before it's supposed to be in the game is indeed custom. Yet nobody cares because it's a good change, much like nobody will care if respec costs are gone.

 

Also, finishing and adding azshara crater would probably draw more people in than it would drive away, just saying.

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As far as lowering respec costs goes, what are the arguments against it? Why should it be so expensive to respec? How does that benefit anyone?

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1 hour ago, Jcus said:

As far as lowering respec costs goes, what are the arguments against it? Why should it be so expensive to respec? How does that benefit anyone?

Blizzlike purists (even though it is an ironic thing to be upset about since Elysium is the opposite of Blizzlike), its also built in gold-sink.

Those are the only arguments I can think of that someone who would be in favor of keeping respecs the same cost.

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19 minutes ago, indi said:

Blizzlike purists (even though it is an ironic thing to be upset about since Elysium is the opposite of Blizzlike), its also built in gold-sink.

Those are the only arguments I can think of that someone who would be in favor of keeping respecs the same cost.

save pupper pals!

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2 hours ago, Ourk said:

- Allow only premades vs premades and pugs vs pugs.

- Permaban dodgers, wintraders, BG exploiters and AFKers.

How do you enforce premades vs. premades? Kick them to world PVP so they can face challenges like raiding Org or Stormwind just like PVErs have to work hard in their raids to avoid wipes. There is no way to allow group or raid queueing in BGs. Premades are not going to do the honorable thing and will exploit with simultaneous clicking to face PUGs in BG for much faster honor via 5-caps and 3-flags. Premades (and especially twinks) are designed solely to faceroll PUGs and levelers, not to fight other premades.  Make it impossible for groups to stay together by randomizing the order of BG entry with a decay on the randomization after x minutes. Wintrading is a lot harder when BGs are mixed up. 

Respec should not be necessary if premades are torn apart in the BG queue.

 

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High respec cost serves to make the game world more consistent. World where character that you run in to are something; that guy is enhancement shaman and this guy resto. Basically the same reasoning as why you have to run in to dungeons and whatnot; to make it feel like a world.

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25 minutes ago, sreaver said:

High respec cost serves to make the game world more consistent. World where character that you run in to are something; that guy is enhancement shaman and this guy resto. Basically the same reasoning as why you have to run in to dungeons and whatnot; to make it feel like a world.

Except you wont see the resto guy because he's only raidlogging and not actually doing anything else because it's fucking terrible to do anything as resto and his only other option is farming up to 400g a week just to respec.

 

So yes, it makes the game world more consistent...ly empty.

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I think a lot of players don't PvP because they prefer to raid and simply don't have the time to grind gold to swap between PvP and raid spec every week. As a mage, my raid spec is complete garbage in PvP and vice versa in PvE.

It's not blizzlike, but removing the respec cost could provide incentive for more people to PvP. Besides, Blizz implemented this later in the game. They just weren't thinking back in vanilla.

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7 minutes ago, NoGnomo said:

fucking PLEB go play another expansion or retail or even a fucking FUNSERVER if u dont like premade vs premade, this is V A N I L L A

Theres no reason to resort to insulting fellow members of the community... 

Ive come to the conclusion you are a troll Nognomo, you're just insulting and raging without actually engaging in the discussion. its not that I dont agree with your point of view, its that your point of view is troll.

The BG scene on Anathema and Elysium is not Bliz like, no way shape or form is it bliz like. When people started acting like this bliz changed the whole structure. The problem is 12 years of experience has changed dramatically play styles and its interacting with a system that never worked in the first place. 

PvP needs to be overhauled to provide a reason for anyone with less than 60 hours a week x 3 months to sink into it to participate. As i said earlier, PvP is a pillar of end-game content. Without PvP players raid log, and the server population slowly dwindles as people get bored/quit. To maintain a healthy community as a whole we need people to be able to enjoy PvP. That doesnt mean 50 people get to farm R14 gear ad infinitum. 

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I don't agree with making respecs completely free.  If the problem is that people can't respec for pvp, why not like, halve or even third the respec cost but only on BG weekends?  I play priest in pvp, sometimes I like to play shadow and sometimes I like to heal, but it's extremely cost-prohibitive to do both or to switch back and forth.  Sometimes in such cases it feels like I'm locked into a certain role and locked out of half of my class's features, not to mention locked out of half the game. 

My other idea was to set a certain exchange rate of marks of honor to gold(but only for the purpose of buying a respec), and allow people to pay for their respec using any combination of them.  For example respec would still cap at 50 gold, but one mark of honor is worth 5 gold to your class trainer.  So you could pay with 25 gold and 5 marks of honor, or 10 marks of honor, or just pay the full 50 gold, etc.  I don't know how hard that would be to implement or if it's even possible, though.  Also the 1 mark = 5g was just an arbitrary number i used as an example, it could be any value.

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1 hour ago, indi said:

Blizzlike purists (even though it is an ironic thing to be upset about since Elysium is the opposite of Blizzlike), its also built in gold-sink.

I dont think it is a gold sink. Only a few people will respec, because it is to expensive. So the people will just save the money. When you lower the cost it is more likely, that a lot of people will respec many times. They will also try different pve specs or pvp specs.

i would like the idea of lowering respec costs.

An other idea is to have something like a dual spec. The player can have on spec that is active in the normal world and an other spec that get active if you join a bg. This will probably kill world pvp.

 

The biggest problem i have is, that getting a high rank has nothing to do with your skill. It is just the time you can afford. Even as a super bad player, playing 24/7 you can get rank 12-13.

When you are a skilled player with a real life who can play 5-10h per week or less you will never get a high rank.

To avoid this it could be possible to use an other system. I hope i can explain it well enough. When the staff is interested in this system i can also make some calculations and simulations. To check if its possible to create such a system. I would also provide the formula the staff need to use.

The system has several steps. To take world pvp, premade bgs and pug bgs into account. It is possible to get a high rank if you are a very good player or if you have to much time and can play 24/7.

Core element is a rating system where you get rating points if you win a bg and loose rating points if you lose a bg. The amount of points is based on the rating points of the opposite fraction and the number of bg objectives you got. If the winning side has higher rating points then the losing side they will get only a small amount of rp. If the match was a close call they will get less points then a group which dominate the game.

You get also rp for world pvp. But it is not possible to farm 24/7 low lvl people. When you have high rp and you kill someone with low rp (because hes doing barely pvp) it is possible that you will get only a small amount of rp, it is also possible that you wont get any rp. If you die against someone with nearly no rp you will lose a lot of points. This rp adjustment will not happen in a bg, because the influence would be to big due to high amount of dying people.

Based on the rp some has farmed during one week the ranks for the next week will be calculated. So the distribution of ranks among the players stays the same.

The rp of player will decay a little bit after one week, so the matchmaking in the beginning of the next week is based on there current and good player are more likely to fight against other good players and still need to do pvp regular, so they can keep there rank.

When you do something like this it is necessary to have a matchmaking system which takes your rating points and the size of your group into account.

The people can still farm honor, the honor will decay weekly and to buy an item you need to have a certain rank or a certain amount of honor. So the 24/7 farmer can still get there items. When the honor decays by 20% per week and a top farmer collects 2.000.000 honor per week you can set the costs of an epic quality item to 6.000.000 honor. The player need to farm 5 weeks for one item.

(Or you can just have a second rank calculation based on the farmed honor of the players, and the player will get the higher rank, either based on honor or on rp)

A third step could be implemented to take care of players with less time per week and who are not very good player. They can get a specific honor mark for doing bgs and world pvp (one for winning a bg, one for killing 10 people in world pvp, objectives in silithus or plaguelands). But they can get only one mark of each type (ws, av, kills, silithus, etc.) per day. They can buy items with this marks too (costs per item 200-400 marks) and a player will lose all his marks when he buy a item with his honor points. So a casual player can farm his item (when he collect 3 marks per day, winning ws, ab and kill 10 people in world pvp, and a item costs 300 marks he need to farm 100 days for this item).

In my opinion from a system like this everybody will benefit. The 24/7 farmers can still farm. Every player have a reason to do some world pvp (he can "easily" farm epic items, without a big advantage due to the number of days he would need) and got players get restricted by ganking low lvl players 24/7 (loose a lot of rp). And good players can get a high rank without playing 24/7. And it is still not to easy to get the items. (A casual player, who gets 2 marks per day and want to have the epic armor and two epic weapons. The r12 armor costs 250marks, r13 costs 300 and r14 costs 350 marks, he need to play 1175 days. If he can obtain 6 marks per day (killing 10 people in world pvp, win a ws, ab and av, doing objectives in plaguelands and silithus) he still need to play 391 days.

The hardest part of a system like this is the matchmaking. But i think you can easily copy the matchmaking from games like dota or lol.

To handle the problems with premades you can use the player with the highest rp of a group to search for a bg. Example: You need 2 ppl for a bg, 4 are maximum.

In the beginning the algorithm for a bg will search for ppl with the same rp. After a certain time he will increase the difference between the rp of players

When a players start to queue, the algorithm check if there is a queue with the rp of the player.

H1:7rp (player number 1, horde side, 7 raking points) start to search for a bg. Currently there is nor queue so a bg will be "created" but the player wont get an invitation. He will get one, when there are enough players.

The bg will allow only player with the same amount of rp in the beginning. So there is a bg1:7rp(battleground 1, 7 ranking points)

Several other players are joining the queue H2:7rp, H3:9rp, H4:6rp, H5:8rp, h6:10rp and A1:7rp, A2:5rp, A3:9rp, A4:8rp, a5:9. a6:10rp, a7:11rp

Player a5,a6,a7 are premades. So the algorithm will say both of them are rp11

The player h2 will go into bg1:7rp, the player a1 will go there two. The bg wont open, because there are not enough players.

there are no queues for the other players so several new bg queues will open. bg2:9rp, bg3:6rp, bg4:8rp, bg5:5rp, bg6:10rp and bg7:11rp

After one minute the bg queues will increase there rp area. bg1 will contain also rp 6 and 8. bg1:7rp will change to bg1:6-8rp.

This bg intersects with bg3:6rp and bg4:8rp. This bgs dont have an area, so the bgs can easily merge. in bg3:6rp was the player h4 and in bg4:8rp was the player a4 and h5.

so bg1:6-8rp contains player h1,h2,h4,h5,a1,a4. Now there enough players and the bg will open. Now he will immediately search for other players in other ranks, so they dont have to wait for a full bg.

the other existing bg queues at this time are bg2:9rp, bg5:5rp, bg6:10rp, bg7:11rp. First the bg will look to the ranks 5 and 9. In the queue of bg2:9rp is only one horde and one ally player. Only the ally player can join, because horde is full. In bg5:5rp is on ally player, he can also join bg1.

So after the invite there is bg1 with the player h1:7rp,h2:7rp,h4:6rp,h5:8rp and a1:7rp,a4:8rp,a2:5rp,a3:9rp

After this merge the are three more queues. bg2:9rp with player h3:9rp, bg6:10rp and bg7:11rp.

After the next timestep these queues will also merge and open the next bg.

I hope the matchmaking based on the rank points is clear.

And i apologize for my english

 

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6 hours ago, Lifealert said:

What is Elysium known for? Providing a vanilla experience that tries to be as authentic as possible (blizzlike). Once you start adding custom changes that drives people away because now it has become a CUSTOM server in their eyes. Then people start crying FUN SERVER! FUN SERVER!

The server already has many custom changes. Notice how you're not queuing from Arathi and Ashenvale every time you want to play? The ability for some classes to farm, and what they can farm, was directly and significantly changed in an attempt to have our servers better off overall, in spite of intentionally being un-Blizzlike.

Blizzlike is a general standard, not the single governing principle by which to judge any suggestion or proposal. It's not that respec costs are too high, or are unreasonable, by themselves - that would be governed by the "Blizzlike principle." The problem is that sticking to high respec costs feeds into an already large problem - the ability and enjoyability of PvP. The benefits, if any, of high respec costs pale in comparison to the benefits of encouraging more casual PvP. As is, the barrier is simply too high.

 

Small PvP-centric changes aren't the end of the world. If they're convenient, with minimal downside, and no trivializing upside, it is fair to consider.

 

2 hours ago, sreaver said:

High respec cost serves to make the game world more consistent. World where character that you run in to are something; that guy is enhancement shaman and this guy resto. Basically the same reasoning as why you have to run in to dungeons and whatnot; to make it feel like a world.

I don't see how respec costs being lower or different for PvP would make the world feel in any way less like a world. I don't think that dual spec as we came to have it on retail, is the way to go (any time, any place, no cost, no downside). But there is a huge benefit to allowing for people to enjoy casual PvP or casual PvE without either breaking the bank on respec costs or having to perform as a build not designed at all for that type of content, which I believe dwarfs any potential downsides.

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