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killerduki

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3 hours ago, Theloras said:

i already did bro

You just claimed for the entire forum that I'm a liar and you aren't going to supply more info?

It should be quite easy for you to claim, but this is all you sent me on discord - disregarding TBC bugs.

Quote

its on the github

its all over the dev discord

wtf

https://github.com/elysium-project/server/issues/802

do u even github bro?

#7Oct 13 2005 at 12:31 PMRating: Decent
Cathela
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961 posts
Quote:
Multiple paladins can stack different ranks of the judgements on the same mob. The last time my raid group killed Ragnaros we didn't have enough priests to do AoE heals on the rogues, so the three paladins in the melee groups coordinated different ranks of Judgement of Light on him, and the rogues and dps warriors ended up healing themselves a lot.

Reportedly this was nerfed in the 1.8 patch so that now you can only have one rank each of JoW and JoL on a monster, though I haven't had a chance to confirm this.

Also, there's apparently some kind of aggro screwup when JoL and JoW proc since the patch. Not sure if this has been hotfixed or not.
http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=243&mid=11287757594799940

As the cherry on top -- if you've got three Paladins you can judge all three different ranks of Wisdom on the target. They stack. Mega mana regain!
http://paladinsucks.blogspot.com/2005/08/best-way-to-regain-your-mana.html

Basically you've got so many procs going off, with each one having a chance to trigger Judgement of Wisdom, that on average you'll see 2 JoW procs per swing (that's +118 mana per swing). It's sick. When you see JoW proc 4 times off a single hit (not uncommon), you'll laugh at how rediculous this is.
http://paladinsucks.blogspot.com/2005/12/super-mana-regen-is-back.html

-Judgement of the Crusader: It is no longer possible to have icons for two different ranks of Judgment of the Crusader appear at the same time when judged by multiple Paladins.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/patch-notes/2-4-0

i was just getting into boxing i started with 2 paladins... they were both using judgement of light and the debuff (heal on hit) effect was stacking for both pallies.
http://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/19271-Is-the-JoL-debuff-still-stacking
http://i41.tinypic.com/29oj3op.jpg

Plus there's also this - which Guybrush alluded to in the github report:

TLDR - Nihilum was never banned for this type of mechanic
"Blizzard if you are going to pick sides, make it a little less obvious...

Was Nihilum/Ensidia ever banned for using "Clever game mechanics" on.....

C'thun (Know anything about a disgusting Oozling Kungen?)
Lady Vashj.....Respawns?
Twins...No video from first kill Kungen? Sat on a torch?
Hodir....Flower power?
Mimiron...JoL stacking?"
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/654702-Ensidia-exploited-on-Mimiron-(-proof)/
and
http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/exodus-banned-for-exploiting-omg.181995804/

plus all the TBC videos showing multiple JotC ranks

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/288159811076620300/318104480732413952/seller.JPG

First two blogpost are pre patch 1.8 - the 2nd post even speculates that its fixed.

Third post isn't even about stacking judgements. But instead is related to the SoW -> Judgement -> Seal of Fury as described here: https://www.mmorpgitalia.it/threads/paladin-mana-regeneration-trick-exploit.63598/

Rest isn't vanilla. I have even proven the math behind the infamous Onyxia Warder, you can see it in the original thread.

Would you please stop the unpleasantly namecalling and stick to the facts.

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58 minutes ago, gamemechanic said:

I'm not sure I'm following you? But you are right, I'm not discussing. I wrote that I want to discuss it, if they have more claims. I have already had several discussions on reddit, discord and in a different thread. Between patch 1.8.0 and 1.12.1 have they only been able to supply one piece of evidence. Its a blogpost describing mana regen from the buggy SoW->Judgement->SoF mechanic.

I will not claim that I know what they are doing and I will not express my thoughts about it.

Your not following what I asked?

i specifically asked you what you thought they been doing if they aren't providing evidence, and what do you think they are doing in regards towards Paladins... for example, do you think they are trying to exploit the class, destroy the server, etc etc...

please discuss and enlighten me.

i had mentioned this question three times only to have a reply that above....

 

I for one was trying to have a discussion. A contrctuve one, but a discussion none the less, but now I think your trolling, since you directly avoided my legit question. I was trying to understand, but then your claimed to be confused on the answer.

normally trolls at this point are cornered and back off, I wonder if this prediction will be true.

 

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3 hours ago, JCarrill0 said:

Your not following what I asked?

i specifically asked you what you thought they been doing if they aren't providing evidence, and what do you think they are doing in regards towards Paladins... for example, do you think they are trying to exploit the class, destroy the server, etc etc...

please discuss and enlighten me.

i had mentioned this question three times only to have a reply that above....

 

I for one was trying to have a discussion. A contrctuve one, but a discussion none the less, but now I think your trolling, since you directly avoided my legit question. I was trying to understand, but then your claimed to be confused on the answer.

My thoughts would just be assumptions. There is no point in sharing em, since I can't see how my perception of their motivation and thoughts in any way could contribute to a constructive debate. And it would quite likely be against the forum rules and its not a discussion I morally can join. That's why I wrote: I will not claim that I know what they are doing and I will not express my thoughts about it.

And yes I wasn't following what you asked. Consider it a language barrier.

Quote

normally trolls at this point are cornered and back off, I wonder if this prediction will be true.

Which is probably why Theloras isn't going to supply more shocking evidence of either the mechanic or me lying.

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@gamemechanic: the whole screwed thing about judgement stacking thing is that if you make a bug report stating judgements DID NOT stack, you have to bring evidence it die not stack. You refer to the one comment, stating it was nerfed with 1.8, but ignore any other evidence by calling it "one comment from a random guy."

 

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12 hours ago, Theloras said:

PS @kingRat - I forgot about this piece of the 126 bitmask shade from Duki:

Re: Crestfall - 1x progressive Vanilla server


This is what Darkrasp cannot grasp and other folks here.
I did not went back to history and rewrite that comment from 2006  .

https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=43506&start=360#p317366

You're actually dense enough to think that comment means holy resist doesn't exist in the game files, when it does; it's being overwritten server side (just like on Elysium), it's even referenced in the post "SO they actually "cheat" to keep your resistance at 0. Buuut, that is a little off this topic :)".

Not speaking for Darkrasp or their project but afaik the issue is fixed on their project so I don't know why in your delusion you keep pushing that point.

 

//kind regards

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10 hours ago, gamemechanic said:

My thoughts would just be assumptions. There is no point in sharing em, since I can't see how my perception of their motivation and thoughts in any way could contribute to a constructive debate. And it would quite likely be against the forum rules and its not a discussion I morally can join. That's why I wrote: I will not claim that I know what they are doing and I will not express my thoughts about it.

And yes I wasn't following what you asked. Consider it a language barrier.

I rest my case.... I was right...

trolls back off and shift the blame, in this case, tossed it to @Theloras.

R.I.P. @killerduki

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7 hours ago, Ram said:

@gamemechanic: the whole screwed thing about judgement stacking thing is that if you make a bug report stating judgements DID NOT stack, you have to bring evidence it die not stack. You refer to the one comment, stating it was nerfed with 1.8, but ignore any other evidence by calling it "one comment from a random guy."

 

I didn't call it that. I'm stating that he couldn't provide any evidence from late Vanilla and that's a fact.

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6 hours ago, JCarrill0 said:

I rest my case.... I was right...

trolls back off and shift the blame, in this case, tossed it to @Theloras.

R.I.P. @killerduki

People who read this could easily think this is an objective observation. But they can't see that you are tagging Theloras on the paladin discord everytime you are white knight'ing him and trying to discredit me.

Stick to discussing facts instead. You where clearly derailing this discussion.

I'll share my thoughts now: They probably thought they where right, they keept digging for evidence and got stuck in a discussion they couldn't win. But being to stubborn about it too admit it. That's why KD left and Theloras called me a liar without anything to support it. Anyone can join the open dev discord and look at the discussion. Its quite clear that no evidence from late vanilla could be supplied.

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24 minutes ago, gamemechanic said:

People who read this could easily think this is an objective observation. But they can't see that you are tagging Theloras on the paladin discord everytime you are white knight'ing him.

Stick to discussing facts instead. You where clearly derailing this discussion.

I'll share my thoughts now: They probably thought they where right, they keept digging for evidence and got stuck in a discussion they couldn't win. But being to stubborn about it too admit it. That's why KD left and Theloras called me a liar without anything to support it. Anyone can join the open dev discord and look at the discussion. Its quite clear that no evidence from late vanilla could be supplied.

cuz you did lie about it - and you have zero proof that it was removed - again this is how things transpired:

First - the 2005 blog poster was incorrect and the mechanic never existed in the first place

Second - the mechanic did exist but was a bug and removed/nerfed/hotfixed by blizzard prior to patch 1.8

Third - the mechanic did exist on retail, was removed prior to patch 1.8 then reappeared on a ptr server that magically never went live

Fourth - the mechanic was only on the 2.0 TBC pre-patch PTR

Fifth - the mechanic was only just a visual bug once TBC went live till Blizzard removed it in 2.4

TLDR - people have come up with THEORIES - no one has come up with any EVIDENCE

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1 minute ago, Theloras said:

cuz you did lie about it - and you have zero proof that it was removed - again this is how things transpired:

First - the 2005 blog poster was incorrect and the mechanic never existed in the first place

Second - the mechanic did exist but was a bug and removed/nerfed/hotfixed by blizzard prior to patch 1.8

Third - the mechanic did exist on retail, was removed prior to patch 1.8 then reappeared on a ptr server that magically never went live

Fourth - the mechanic was only on the 2.0 TBC pre-patch PTR

Fifth - the mechanic was only just a visual bug once TBC went live till Blizzard removed it in 2.4

TLDR - people have come up with THEORIES - no one has come up with any EVIDENCE

First: No evidence from late vanilla. You are calling me a liar, but still cant show any evidence.

Sorry dude. Give us something to work with or just call it GAME OVER.

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8 hours ago, kingRat said:

You're actually dense enough to think that comment means holy resist doesn't exist in the game files, when it does; it's being overwritten server side (just like on Elysium), it's even referenced in the post "SO they actually "cheat" to keep your resistance at 0. Buuut, that is a little off this topic :)".

Not speaking for Darkrasp or their project but afaik the issue is fixed on their project so I don't know why in your delusion you keep pushing that point.

 

//kind regards

cuz you're the one who said that Cornholi was the ONLY one who solved the issue...

and so many others saying logic, common sense for multiple judgements...lol gimme a break

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1 minute ago, gamemechanic said:

First: No evidence from late vanilla. You are calling me a liar, but still cant show any evidence.

Sorry dude. Give us something to work with or just call it GAME OVER.

you have ZERO evidence

again

ZERO EVIDENCE

that it was removed

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28 minutes ago, Theloras said:

you have ZERO evidence

again

ZERO EVIDENCE

that it was removed

Not all bugfixes makes it into the patchnotes.

I'll assume your next post would either be a proper evidence of the mechanic, a evidence of me lying or an apology.

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10 minutes ago, gamemechanic said:

Not all bugfixes makes it into the patchnotes.

I'll assume your next post would either be a proper evidence of the mechanic, a evidence of me lying or an apology.

and none of you can provide any proof that it was removed

you wanna keep going round and round like this?

the mechanic EXISTED and we found actual documented PROOF that it did

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One question, and I'm not trying to stirr up anything, but what is the actual evidence of the seals stacking prior to patch 1.8? One forum poster saying "yes this used to happen" as a side comment on an unnoficial wow forum isn't really evidence in the first place. Its essentially the same thing of someone saying "I remember it used to happen".

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Just now, Dralek said:

One question, and I'm not trying to stirr up anything, but what is the actual evidence of the seals stacking prior to patch 1.8? One forum poster saying "yes this used to happen" isn't really evidence in the first place. Its essentially the same thing of someone saying "I remember it used to happen".

theres more than one source pre and post:

https://forum.elysium-project.org/topic/25951-paladin-bug-compendium/?page=4#comment-399834

plus a ton of videos from 2.0 to 2.4 as well that I found after I posted the above ^

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6 minutes ago, Theloras said:

theres more than one source pre and post:

https://forum.elysium-project.org/topic/25951-paladin-bug-compendium/?page=4#comment-399834

plus a ton of videos from 2.0 to 2.4 as well that I found after I posted the above ^

But the only evidence provided that this might have existed is a forum poster (not official forum) saying that this used to happen. That doesn't really have much value. Furthermore he speaks of Seal of Light, an jumps to assume this includes all seals. Coul have been a bug related only to that particular seal mechanic.

According to the poster, all seals stack. If this was the case, there would probably be a lot of evidence for this, given that multiple ranks of Light and Wisdom would have been amazing for any raid group, thus making it a very popular exploit back in the day :S-

Its not an actual screenshot, video or official forum posting that this used to happen prior to patch 1.8 (or after for the matter), until BC ptr videos.

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1 minute ago, Dralek said:

But the only evidence provided that this might have existed is a forum poster (not official forum) saying that this used to happen. That doesn't really have much value. Furthermore he speaks of Seal of Light, an jumps to assume this includes all seals. Coul have been a bug related only to that particular seal mechanic.

Its not an actual screenshot, video or official forum posting that this used to happen prior to patch 1.8 (or after for the matter), until BC ptr videos.

scroll down further:

As the cherry on top -- if you've got three Paladins you can judge all three different ranks of Wisdom on the target. They stack. Mega mana regain!
http://paladinsucks.blogspot.com/2005/08/best-way-to-regain-your-mana.html

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Basically you've got so many procs going off, with each one having a chance to trigger Judgement of Wisdom, that on average you'll see 2 JoW procs per swing (that's +118 mana per swing). It's sick. When you see JoW proc 4 times off a single hit (not uncommon), you'll laugh at how rediculous this is.
http://paladinsucks.blogspot.com/2005/12/super-mana-regen-is-back.html

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41 minutes ago, Theloras said:

scroll down further:

As the cherry on top -- if you've got three Paladins you can judge all three different ranks of Wisdom on the target. They stack. Mega mana regain!
http://paladinsucks.blogspot.com/2005/08/best-way-to-regain-your-mana.html

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Basically you've got so many procs going off, with each one having a chance to trigger Judgement of Wisdom, that on average you'll see 2 JoW procs per swing (that's +118 mana per swing). It's sick. When you see JoW proc 4 times off a single hit (not uncommon), you'll laugh at how rediculous this is.
http://paladinsucks.blogspot.com/2005/12/super-mana-regen-is-back.html

Well, the blog is still weak evidence just as the forum post, as in the opinion of a not very serious paladin. However, I do agree that compiled both do bring some evidence that the mechanic might have worked (whether intentional or not) that way at some early patch, and may have been popular knowledge that seals did indeed stack.

However given that the same evidence also states that it was removed at some point (supposedly in patch 1.8), what would be the reason to apply the mechanic to our current realms?

The realms operate on class mechanics and talents from patch 1.12, and all the spells work that way. Even if there was a mechanic that used to work in a different manner, lets say in patch 1.4 maybe, what would be the point of applying it? If we did apply this unintended mechanic, then shouldn't we also apply all the mechanics according to patch for every class?

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2 hours ago, gamemechanic said:

I didn't call it that. I'm stating that he couldn't provide any evidence from late Vanilla and that's a fact.

Wait... There was a bug report which stated the judgement stacking should be removed, right?

Now bring fucking evidence that it did not exist. THAT is your fucking job and nothing else.

Now the only evidence you have found is this one comment stating it was removed. No patch notes, no other evidence. This stands against all the other evidence stating it did exist at some point.

The "logic" you use is just not logical.

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Dralek said:

Well, the blog is still weak evidence just as the forum post, as in the opinion of a not very serious paladin. However, I do agree that compiled both do bring some evidence that the mechanic might have worked (whether intentional or not) that way at some early patch, and may have been popular knowledge that seals did indeed stack.

However given that the same evidence also states that it was removed at some point (supposedly in patch 1.8), what would be the reason to apply the mechanic to our current realms?

The realms operate on class mechanics and talents from patch 1.12, and all the spells work that way. Even if there was a mechanic that used to work in a different manner, lets say in patch 1.4 maybe, what would be the point of applying it? If we did apply this unintended mechanic, then shouldn't we also apply all the mechanics according to patch for every class?

You did not play back in the days, right? If you read further in the blog, you will find out that this player is very well informed and his blog is actually very sophisticated for vanilla times, compared to the 95% noob players back then.

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Just now, Ram said:

You did not play back in the days, right? If you read further in the blog, you will find out that this player is very well informed and his blog is actually very sophisticated for vanilla times, compared to the 95% noob players back then.

Only very little in the last patch of vanilla before TBC came out, so I have no functional knowledge of vanilla wow, aside from leveling to 60 (never got to seriously raid). Also please don't take my questions as an attempt to put down the argument in favour of rank stacking.

However, the problem is that personal experience does not qualify as evidence to support a mechanic without factual proof. And the mechanic itself, of having different ranks of judgement stacking is quite controversial, given no other spell of similar nature does that. So it is highly understandble that almost everyone would question it.

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1 hour ago, Theloras said:

scroll down further:

As the cherry on top -- if you've got three Paladins you can judge all three different ranks of Wisdom on the target. They stack. Mega mana regain!
http://paladinsucks.blogspot.com/2005/08/best-way-to-regain-your-mana.html

Posted before patch 1.8. I asked you on discord whats the difference is between the first post comment saying it worked and the second post that says its fixed. Do you remember what you answered? If you haven't figured it out by now, its posted by the same person.

Quote

Basically you've got so many procs going off, with each one having a chance to trigger Judgement of Wisdom, that on average you'll see 2 JoW procs per swing (that's +118 mana per swing). It's sick. When you see JoW proc 4 times off a single hit (not uncommon), you'll laugh at how rediculous this is.
http://paladinsucks.blogspot.com/2005/12/super-mana-regen-is-back.html

This isn't based on stackable judgements.

https://www.mmorpgitalia.it/threads/paladin-mana-regeneration-trick-exploit.63598/
http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=243&mid=11287757594799940

(There's also a weird effect where Seal of Fury pushes the proc rate of Judgement of Wisdom way up. It seems like you get two or three times as many procs from JoW if you have SoF running, and sometimes you'll see two or three procs for a single swing. This does not work for Judgement of Light however. )

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22 minutes ago, Ram said:

Wait... There was a bug report which stated the judgement stacking should be removed, right?

Now bring fucking evidence that it did not exist. THAT is your fucking job and nothing else.

Now the only evidence you have found is this one comment stating it was removed. No patch notes, no other evidence. This stands against all the other evidence stating it did exist at some point.

The "logic" you use is just not logical.

All other evidence? You are aware that Theloras has only found ONE comment from vanilla that says it works. The comment that said it was removed was even posted by the same guy that said it works.

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1 hour ago, Theloras said:

plus a ton of videos from 2.0 to 2.4 as well that I found after I posted the above ^

It's just dumb to bring in TBC mechanics. Since its a know bug due to two spell mod auras being applied.

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