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Omgdontdie

Ironfoe Testing

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I can see the point of view of not having procs from Shield Slam and Shield Bash.  But why not fix Sunder Armor procs?  The cited patch notes do not refer to Sunder Armor.

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I 100% understand the decision to deny Shield Slam and Shield Bash. Clearly these were bugs, even though they happened during vanilla.

I am surprised that the QA team isn't willing to fix sunder armor though. I looked through past patch notes saying sunder armor triggering procs was a bug, but I was unable to. As far as I know, sunder armor has always procced main hand triggers. Intuitively, it makes sense too, since it requires a mainhand after all. 

If the QA team has a reference to patch notes saying something along the lines of "sunder armor triggering procs was a bug and has been fixed" that would be great (I'm actually looking for this as we speak because I want to believe the QA team), but I'm worried that the QA team is just making things up and stating it as fact.

Furthermore, dismissing Shield Slam as a bug while coding Shield Bash to proc weapons is inconsistent. Nothing about the QA team's decision adds up, which is why myself and many other warriors are confused about this.

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So shield slam and shield bash were changed in patch 2.0 to not proc MH effects, and this change was categorised under "bug fixes". Not techinically blizzlike in patch 1.3 but understandable. Sunder and Execute however seem odd to leave unfixed.

By the way: is this behaviour confirmed to work for all effects, or just the ones mentioned here specifically? Would something like Darkmoon Card: Maelstrom be worthless when it comes out since it won't proc off anything besides revenge and heroic strike in a typical rotation? 

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I would have to check the code, but I would assume that because trinkets are not weapon procs, that they would behave differently. I specifically tested chance on hit from main hand weapons. Initially with Ironfoe+Crusader, but once I noticed some blaring inconsistencies, I increased my sample size with a 2.8 speed sword+fiery to make sure it wasn't bad RNG.

Abilities which require a weapon and deal damage seem to be working as intended, but literally anything that doesn't fit that category (except for shield bash for some reason) doesn't work correctly.

Bloodthirst, is a little bit different. While it does not require a main hand weapon, I found evidence (lots of it actually) that it triggers main hand procs. Bloodthirst has procced mainhand weapons since it was introduced, even throughout BC and Wotlk if I recall correctly.

Edit: Execute, although it fits that category, is also broken.

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I took some advice from someone in the dev discord and split up the fixes in to separate pull requests for each ability. I made separate pull requests for...

-Removing proc from Shield Bash (Since this is the stance they seem to be taking)

-Fixing proc from Bloodthirst

-Fixing proc from Sunder Armor

-Fixing proc from Execute

Added a special note for the last 3 requesting any patch note that might classify the main hand interactions as bugs. I think the QA team might have been getting the abilities Shield Bash/Slam confused with the last three or were misreading the patch notes. I'm curious as to which of these fixes will go through or if QA supplies any evidence at all if they get denied.

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So it seems like there was a miscommunication on my part. My PRs got denied because I grouped shield slam with BT/SA/Execute. BT/SA/Execute is making another pass through QA. Fingers crossed fellow warriors

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7 hours ago, Zarant said:

Have you ever asked yourself why is that a bug in the first place? Because it does feel like a bug, imagine if you get disarmed, cast a shield slam and get a crusader proc, that doesn't feel right. You could argue the same about bloodthirst, ok, I can go with that. But then you have sunder armor and execute which are both proper main hand attacks but doesn't trigger any main hand proc because of a made up rule, that is, the main hand attack must do damage, which is not blizzlike at all and there is nothing explicitly indicating that sunder armor isn't supposed to behave that way, and which is even more weird is that execute falls into this same category.

There are so many things inconsistent here and even with proper evidence, the response to this whole thing is just: Not a bug, nothing to do here.

Well said.

From a common sense perspective Shieldslam and Shieldbash shouldnt proc stuff, that I agree on, even if it did in vanilla (errously). But to not have Bloodthirst, sunder and other abilities not proccing stuff (depite the fact BT technically isnt a weapon-required ability) is just silly. These abilities SHOULD be proccing and proof seems to be abundant for it being so.

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Sorry, but in my opinion the decision to stick with sunder armor not proccing ironfoe is very weak. It feels like you adhere to this 'bug' interpretation, even though it is definately not working blizzlike right now. Do you guys want to have a blizzlike experience, or modify it to your needs?

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39 minutes ago, Omgdontdie said:

There was a miscommunication. It is now a QA confirmed issue.

The previous reports are still closed. You got a link to the new open one?

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If the proc on sunder armor is added, does ironfoe become the BiS threat tanking weapon for all of Vanilla until thunderfury?

 

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1 hour ago, Gnog said:

If the proc on sunder armor is added, does ironfoe become the BiS threat tanking weapon for all of Vanilla until thunderfury?

 

Quite possible.

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There was a miscommunication I think. The QA team seemed to be against implementing Shield Slam, since it was a bug. They were willing to investigate sunder armor, bloodthirst, and execute tho.

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8 hours ago, Theloras said:

GitHubBOT-Today at 9:47 AM

m-laniakea

[server:development] 1 new commit

1d21eb2 Bloodthirst, Sunder Armor, Execute trigger proc... - Yoshgit

https://github.com/elysium-project/server/commit/1d21eb2ebb714e4b621bf3167a8c7048a688ea7a

so does this mean they are reversing their position?

Oh boy, this is about to become a crusade for "fixing paladins" now. Thread will derail, I repeat thread is about to derail!

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On 6/12/2017 at 3:09 PM, Phoosy said:

The irony is not lost on me*, though to further keep us from derailing the thread I'll leave the discussion of nuance and context aside since that failed in the past.

Hey there, those patch notes were from TBC, if we use future expansion changes then vanilla would be completely different at least the way that i see it.

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10 hours ago, Storfan said:

Oh boy, this is about to become a crusade for "fixing paladins" now. Thread will derail, I repeat thread is about to derail!

did i mention anywhere in this thread anything about Paladins?

I came in here in solidarity with Warriors over the devs' decision affecting you and this is the thanks I get...

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Any news on this? I'm not so familiar with coding so I can't figure out if the changes that were made on github are working.
Will it be implemented in a future development update?

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I've been on vacation and finally getting caught up on some of the deeper listed threads.   All I can say is WOW.......

Do I have to copy and paste my Thunderfury argument here?

Then you have others commenting things have to do damage to proc things.  Wrong - immune targets, absorb, and applicable debuffs that require a weapon or are from a weapon should all proc abilities.  Remember the first TF nerf?  The secondary target DEBUFF (zero damage) was proccing off itself having a 30% chance of doing 300 damage and reproccing TF off each secondary target, creating a chain that was OP.  The weapon alone was nerfed to not proc off itself, not the mechanic of non-damage abilities allowing procs in general.   Shield Slam, Bash, Pummel shouldn't proc things, wrong.  While you are technically not using the arm of the weapon you hold, it follows suite of chance on hit.  Not chance on hit with this arm or not.   As long as a ability is not missed, dodged, parried, it can trigger procs from weapons / enchants / trinkets / armor set bonuses.   Manual restrictions were added for specific cases, TF / Extra Swing restrictions.

Devs and GMs asserting changes and decisions based on updates made beyond the horizon of 1.12.1.  Wrong.   Should TF threat from procs be nerfed?   Cause that was done in TBC....    Poison Elixirs being nerfed because that was done in what... WotLK? That was wrong too.   Thanks for making that change after I dumped 500g on venom sacks btw, I got about 5 gold of that back on AH.   Revenge damage was increased greatly as soon as TBC came out because tank threat was too low based on the damage raid members were doing, you gonna change that for me too?   Procs were given ICG (Internal Global Cooldowns) because stacking proc/chance on hit items deemed too strong when paired with 3/4 stormshroud / 4/8 D2, and other combinations beyond their item levels.  Should we be expecting this as well?

This is an emulation 1.12.1 VANILLA server.   The emulation should end there, not at 2.x.x.

 

On 6/14/2017 at 3:20 PM, Gnog said:

If the proc on sunder armor is added, does ironfoe become the BiS threat tanking weapon for all of Vanilla until thunderfury?

No.   My previous calculations in a different thread in regards to it's value were based on correctly working with Sunder and providing an additional 40 globals possible per minute (ie sunder included).   Ironfoe will still hold the same value for a tank matching a stat-less 56.2 dps weapon.

 

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To answer people with the Ironfoe for threat question, I'll do some paper napkin math for you.

Lets assume you are using an ability for every global, since you should be in a raid setting. Every minute, you will do about 10 shield slams, the rest will be revenge or sunder. Every minute you have 30 special attacks and 25 auto attacks that can proc Ironfoe. With a 5% proc rate, thats 2.75 procs per minute on average. This number is probably higher in reality, since the SQL files show a 6% proc rate.

For the following numbers, im pulling stats off my tank gear (which is mediocre at best). I have 305 AP, and 249 str unbuffed. With raid buffs (kings, mark, might, battle shout etc), as a conservative estimate you can expect about 750 AP on a raid geared tank. This means that using Ironfoe, each hit will do an average of (740/14+43.5)*2.4=231.26 damage (lets assume 0 armor for simplicity). 2.75 procs in a minute gives us 2.75*231.25*2/60=21.2 dps just from the proc.

If we add the value of the proc to Ironfoe's dps, we can see that 21.2+43.5=64.7 dps. The white damage alone from the proc makes it outclass any weapon for TPS except for Thunderfury, without even considering the rage component. The only downside is the unpredictable nature of the proc, but if you consider the rage gained from it in addition to the extra damage, you can see that the expected value of TPS puts Ironfoe miles ahead of any other epic weapon in BWL content. Keep in mind these are VERY conservative estimates. If we assume a player's race is human, gear is T2 BIS, raid buffs like ZG, RC, and Jujus, or a higher procrate (up to 6%), this number only increases (by quite a large amount actually). 

A common mistake that people make when trying to model the damage from this weapon is they don't consider the damage they gain from their attack power. Simply multiplying the weapon's dps by 1.1 and converting extra rage to threat is lazy math. If you really want to get into the details, you would have to consider things like damage reduction from armor, crit chance, weapon skill, rage gain, how you convert that rage into threat, etc. For simplicity, I kept all things equal, since these factors are the same no matter which weapon you use (except for maybe Vael).

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Also, in response to Undertanker, the one relevant thing I saw in your post was 

Quote

Shield Slam, Bash, Pummel shouldn't proc things, wrong.

and I kinda agree, but this is the direction the QA team wants to take. If 2.0 patched it as a bug fix, seems reasonable enough imo.

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5 hours ago, Omgdontdie said:

Also, in response to Undertanker, the one relevant thing I saw in your post was 

and I kinda agree, but this is the direction the QA team wants to take. If 2.0 patched it as a bug fix, seems reasonable enough imo.

I understand their reasoning for doing it but considering the point of this project it is a stretch. In the end, Undertanker is right in his saying:

"This is an emulation 1.12.1 VANILLA server.   The emulation should end there, not at 2.x.x."

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On 6/25/2017 at 7:49 PM, Omgdontdie said:

if you consider the rage gained from it in addition to the extra damage, you can see that the expected value of TPS puts Ironfoe miles ahead of any other epic weapon in BWL content.

The extra damage done is extra rage gain.  You can't consider extra rage gain twice giving additional value.   

PS: 1:1 math.... kek.

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