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Decoy

So about these AVs lately...

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Just had a very typical battle.

They grouped on their hill, we grouped on ours. They went for Balinda, we went for Galv. 

They wiped on Balinda, we killed Galv. They charged our base and took Aid station, we charged and 1/2 our team wiped on the towers, 2 mages, 1 hunter and the army of defenders we have to run through. We didn't have enough to push into their base so had to take FW graveyard while the rest of the team regrouped on hill and did a 2nd push. They took control of Aid while we took FW G... we pushed to FWR while they pushed into Vann... Vann died before we flipped FWR. Game over. 

Happens often. Simple fact is, we cannot get to their GY before they get to ours because we lose 1/2 our team getting there. They lose nobody. 

Capping towers would not have helped here. We had time to kill galv, flip 1 GY then it was game over. If that 1 GY was a tower and Galv was another tower it would have been 2 towers down and they win. Same outcome. 

To stop this, some Alliance have resorted to defending rather than losing 100% of their games.

 

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Horde have an easy chokepoint on the way to Aid Station.  Put a few mages there and half the offense gets rolled before they even get down to FW.  That causes them to rez midfield and go back to play defense because there's no way they're making it through the archers solo or as a small group.  Horde forces turtles by causing the offense of Alliance to wipe at the chokepoint.

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So you idiots don't have anyone defending while horde has 5ish, and complain that horde gets to your aid first? You realize alliance have a greater defenders advantage than you do, it only takes ~5 alliance to defend for forever, with 1 frost mage + paladin at the backdoor, and 3ish people on the bridge. Your archers are actually relevant, the backdoor needs one aoe slow to stop the jump, AND YOU HAVE LANDMINES TO HELP. You have the EXACT SAME CHOKE horde has after the field of strife at your 2nd bunker. You have landmines, archers, 2 LTs, and a single choke.

If both sides are equally organized, alliance will win 3/4 of the time. Your road to the relief hut is easier, faster, and doesn't involve jumping, mines, and crazy amounts of NPCs. If you are dying to 5ish mages at the choke, then you are beyond horrible. You could have your ~30people dismount and global those mages, clear the ~1 LT that's on you, then continue past that choke and you are home free.

Why the hell are you even killing Galv if they are wiping on Balinda then turtling? If you just charged right for relief hut they wouldn't get there quick enough to stop you. You realize its far higher rep per hour if you just rush the win and ignore Galv right? The only time you go Galv is if they are already turtling and you want to get some rep before leaving. 

I'm saying this as a player that has reached exalted with 4 alliance chars, and 3 horde chars. Alliance has the advantage FULL STOP if you disregard the period where horde was exploit pulling vann.

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37 minutes ago, Haestingas said:

Your archers are actually relevant, the backdoor needs one aoe slow to stop the jump, AND YOU HAVE LANDMINES TO HELP. You have the EXACT SAME CHOKE horde has after the field of strife at your 2nd bunker. You have landmines, archers, 2 LTs, and a single choke.

 

Can't read any more after this part. I'm not sure if you've even played the map despite your claim of exalted with 7 chars.

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43 minutes ago, adamkm said:

Can't read any more after this part. I'm not sure if you've even played the map despite your claim of exalted with 7 chars.

Icewing bunker has mines in front of it, 2 Lt.s patrolling and you are exposed to 3 archers in the bunker on the run by. Iceblood has 2 Lt's, a bunch of mines, and 2 archers you are exposed to in the front, and 2 archers in the back from tower point you are exposed to on the run by. While the IB choke you are exposed to 1 more archer, they are essentially the same. The main difference is that the horde actually defends that choke, and the alliance do not.

That's what defenders do if you have a single brain cell in your body, you defend the first choke, kill as many as possible, then rez, trinket back to the main base, and continue defending back there.

I'm not sure if you've ever played this map on both sides.

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19 minutes ago, Haestingas said:

Icewing bunker has mines in front of it, 2 Lt.s patrolling and you are exposed to 3 archers in the bunker on the run by. Iceblood has 2 Lt's, a bunch of mines, and 2 archers you are exposed to in the front, and 2 archers in the back from tower point you are exposed to on the run by. While the IB choke you are exposed to 1 more archer, they are essentially the same. The main difference is that the horde actually defends that choke, and the alliance do not.

It doesn't work like that at all. 

Alliance have to follow the road the whole way, it aggros all the wandering guards INCLUDING the ones at the GY. Horde run past Balinda ignoring SH entirely, up the hill and down the side of the tower, can heal up here if needed. Then jump off into the wilderness where there are 0 guards/mines. Run past a few lvl 50ish harpies and into the base. Run behind the ram collecting building and up into the GY. Not aggroing a single mob in our entire base.

Lonadin and Southhandle <sp> lieutenants take such a long path, they don't interfere at all and attack the Horde.

How is that path remotely same as the challenge Alliance have to overcome? 

Who are you trying to kid? I don't get it. As you very well know, you can get into the Alliance base SOLO as a horde!! How on Earth is that possible as Alliance? It's not. Even with 20+ people you're lucky if you get past the second tower with even half! mostly its about 5 or 6 people. You need 30+ to go at the same time to guarantee getting 15 through.

Lets all keep pretending that ALL Alliance are simply complete retards, despite the higher % win on all other BG's, and it's all completely balanced.

The simple fact is, the Alliance need 40 coordinated people to pull off the same stunt that Horde can pull off with 20 people. That's what it boils down to. If both teams just rush horde win every time. They get more people into the base without getting killed on route. The ONLY way to prevent that is if SOMEHOW 5 mages in the 40 man PUG decide to defend the jump for the Alliance. Even though they aren't coordinated, possibly don't speak the same language, dont really want to do that job every game, some wont even know it exists, not everyone reads the forums. They also need a healer with them otherwise all the large % of hunter population simply kill them by out ranging/sending pets in them while rest of the team do the jump.

This is pointless. It's like banging your head against a brick wall. Lets just have some statistics released by the Devs for win/loss by faction and we can all have a good laugh at Alliance 10% win ratio.

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47 minutes ago, adamkm said:

It doesn't work like that at all. 

Alliance have to follow the road the whole way, it aggros all the wandering guards INCLUDING the ones at the GY. Horde run past Balinda ignoring SH entirely, up the hill and down the side of the tower, can heal up here if needed. Then jump off into the wilderness where there are 0 guards/mines. Run past a few lvl 50ish harpies and into the base. Run behind the ram collecting building and up into the GY. Not aggroing a single mob in our entire base.

Lonadin and Southhandle <sp> lieutenants take such a long path, they don't interfere at all and attack the Horde.

How is that path remotely same as the challenge Alliance have to overcome? 

Who are you trying to kid? I don't get it. As you very well know, you can get into the Alliance base SOLO as a horde!! How on Earth is that possible as Alliance? It's not. Even with 20+ people you're lucky if you get past the second tower with even half! mostly its about 5 or 6 people. You need 30+ to go at the same time to guarantee getting 15 through.

Lets all keep pretending that ALL Alliance are simply complete retards, despite the higher % win on all other BG's, and it's all completely balanced.

The simple fact is, the Alliance need 40 coordinated people to pull off the same stunt that Horde can pull off with 20 people. That's what it boils down to. If both teams just rush horde win every time. They get more people into the base without getting killed on route. The ONLY way to prevent that is if SOMEHOW 5 mages in the 40 man PUG decide to defend the jump for the Alliance. Even though they aren't coordinated, possibly don't speak the same language, dont really want to do that job every game, some wont even know it exists, not everyone reads the forums. They also need a healer with them otherwise all the large % of hunter population simply kill them by out ranging/sending pets in them while rest of the team do the jump.

This is pointless. It's like banging your head against a brick wall. Lets just have some statistics released by the Devs for win/loss by faction and we can all have a good laugh at Alliance 10% win ratio.

What? Please tell me how you can get into the alliance base solo. You realize theres ~7 mines in the backdoor right? I guess you can stealth in there as a rogue, same with the horde base?

You can literally just do exactly what you said with the ally right?

Alliance run past Galv ignoring IB completely entirely, up the hill and down the side of the tower, can heal up here if needed. Then through the wilderness where there are 0 guards/mines. Run past a few lvl 50ish wolves and into the base. Run through the horde base only agroing the guards on the ground, never get dismounted. Run past the towers into the relief hut, where there's just the standard guards and no NPCS.

Meanwhile the alliance base is a god damn nightmare, after you have cleared the mines, done the jump, ran behind the ram dude you then have to actually cap the flag. Too bad there's ~5 places for ally ranged classes to stop the tap, and ALL OF THEM guarded by guards or elite NPCs with a ton of health. Horde theres ZERO NPCS, and ZERO guards, you can just run into the frozen ravine and deal with NOTHING except the GY guards.

You even have FW to cap if the base zerg doesn't go well. It's right on top of our main base and you have a very short runback once that is capped. Meanwhile on horde you either cap SH and have to run for forever to the backdoor, or you can cap SP and have to run through the valley of a million mines, do the jump again (and hope there's not a frost mage there making it impossible) and then you are back at the flag. Or you can go bridge which is the hardest choke ever invented by 2 fold. 6+ archers, tiny ass choke, gl with that.

 

I would love if they released winrates, I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Especially if they had the breakdown on premade games and such.

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On 11.7.2017 at 0:05 AM, adamkm said:

It doesn't work like that at all. 

Alliance have to follow the road the whole way, it aggros all the wandering guards INCLUDING the ones at the GY. Horde run past Balinda ignoring SH entirely, up the hill and down the side of the tower, can heal up here if needed. Then jump off into the wilderness where there are 0 guards/mines. Run past a few lvl 50ish harpies and into the base. Run behind the ram collecting building and up into the GY. Not aggroing a single mob in our entire base.

Lonadin and Southhandle <sp> lieutenants take such a long path, they don't interfere at all and attack the Horde.

How is that path remotely same as the challenge Alliance have to overcome? 

Who are you trying to kid? I don't get it. As you very well know, you can get into the Alliance base SOLO as a horde!! How on Earth is that possible as Alliance? It's not. Even with 20+ people you're lucky if you get past the second tower with even half! mostly its about 5 or 6 people. You need 30+ to go at the same time to guarantee getting 15 through.

Lets all keep pretending that ALL Alliance are simply complete retards, despite the higher % win on all other BG's, and it's all completely balanced.

The simple fact is, the Alliance need 40 coordinated people to pull off the same stunt that Horde can pull off with 20 people. That's what it boils down to. If both teams just rush horde win every time. They get more people into the base without getting killed on route. The ONLY way to prevent that is if SOMEHOW 5 mages in the 40 man PUG decide to defend the jump for the Alliance. Even though they aren't coordinated, possibly don't speak the same language, dont really want to do that job every game, some wont even know it exists, not everyone reads the forums. They also need a healer with them otherwise all the large % of hunter population simply kill them by out ranging/sending pets in them while rest of the team do the jump.

This is pointless. It's like banging your head against a brick wall. Lets just have some statistics released by the Devs for win/loss by faction and we can all have a good laugh at Alliance 10% win ratio.

you shouldnt even try arguing with these guys. its amazing they think pugs on horde are different than pugs on alliance.

you are just wasting your energy / nerves

 

the win % is way higher (pug vs pug) for the horde (thinking of 70 - 30 or close to that), thats all there is to know. 

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The only reason ally have a higher win rate in ab/wsg is because there are far more ally premades. Horde always dominates ally in pug v pug. You are in denial if you think ally aren't playing like total mouth breathers in AV.

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Just to throw in my 2 cents. The IBT-TP chokepoint is a nightmare. There are 5 elites inside that area: 2 abominations, 2 Lt. commanders, and the Mine Layer. None of these elites can be CC'd and at least 3 will be aggro'd (Lt. Commanders 100% as well as an abomination). This is on top of 3-4 patrols of 2-3 regular NPCs as well as 4 archers in IBT and 3-4 archers in TP. All of that is within this 15-20 second mount run stretch.

The road is also an issue. The entire stretch from IBT to TP is like one long hallway. From IBGY to TP there are dozens of mines on either side that do 1400-1500 AoE damage. That means if you take one step off the road you and everyone around you takes loads of damage. The Mine Layer is a huge threat here because he does 1400-1500 AoE damage around himself. Everyone has to stick to the road or you blow up, everyone also has to stick near the tank who will hopefully be out front getting aggro. Everyone is in a tight pack running down this hallway, no room to go left or right, and Horde almost always have a group of defenders (mages) at this chokepoint spamming AoE slows.

You now have 20-30 people slowed down on a slim stretch of road with mines on either side, elites running wild, the Mine Layer doing his AoE that will hit most if not all of the people there, and the Horde players spamming their own AoE. Anyone that survives has to make it through the TP archers, and anyone that survives that gets picked off by Horde defenders.

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20 hours ago, thirsty said:

The only reason ally have a higher win rate in ab/wsg is because there are far more ally premades. Horde always dominates ally in pug v pug. You are in denial if you think ally aren't playing like total mouth breathers in AV.

if you fail to realize that both sides are mostly full of bad players without a brain, id say you are one of these players.

if horde has such a high winratio in pugs vs pugs, than something is wrong.

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2 hours ago, flowqz said:

if you fail to realize that both sides are mostly full of bad players without a brain, id say you are one of these players.

if horde has such a high winratio in pugs vs pugs, than something is wrong.

If the good alliance all gravitate to premades (leaving only the shitters) and the typical horde are forced to pug due to queue times, it shouldn't be surprising that horde pugs beat alliance pugs.

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Just now, icedwards said:

If the good alliance all gravitate to premades (leaving only the shitters) and the typical horde are forced to pug due to queue times, it shouldn't be surprising that horde pugs beat alliance pugs.

i was talking about av, not ab/wsg.

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2 minutes ago, flowqz said:

i was talking about av, not ab/wsg.

Ahh gotcha. I'd say @StrawberryShake hit the nail on the head for AV.

Horde get to skip all of that. Sure, alliance could park a team of mages and support at backdoor to stop it, but then we're just back to OP's complaints about turtling with no win in sight. Most of us just want our rep, so Galv + loss in < 20min does the trick.

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On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 6:13 PM, Decoy said:

I feel like the strategy from Alliance side recently is to just delay the Horde push by playing 100% defense with little/no attempts at offense - what gives?

I hope that everyone realizes that Alterac Valley is a pretty "low honor" battleground, recognizing that you get 0 (zero) honor after you've gotten credit for a kill on someone after the 10th time due to diminishing returns.  http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Honor_system_(pre-2.0_formulas)

You're losing your time, your honor, and your rep rewards by delaying games with the turtle-log-jam-knuckledragging strategy

You know.. you can stop horde or drastically ruin their push by having 1-2 mages and 1 hunter at IWB. Merely place a FROST trap with IM traps spec (entangling roots) between the bunker and the mountain where horde already zerg, have mages AOE IMP BLizzard, rinse and repeat. Horde will either completely wipe, or will have so few actually make it out alive that ALLIANCE will (hopefully) push for the win.

On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 6:13 PM, Decoy said:

 

 

 

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There's a reason why the NOST team patched that backdoor entrance. Because it's basically cheating and bypassing the whole base mechanics!! It wasn't there by design!

I think it is still used in legion.

In legion however, we have to deal with knockback spells.  That makes crossing that bridge next to impossible if 5 or so people wished it to be.

The distance alliance has to travel, directly to horde boss is less of that than horde having to travel to the alliance boss.

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 7:17 PM, adamkm said:

Once the initial Alliance rush gets nuked in by the towers you're screwed. Out of 25 people it's lucky if 10 make it to the destination, then you have to pray those 15 killed on route isn't your tank/healers! 

Could this not be changed to "Once the initial Horde rush gets nuked in by the towers you're screwed. Out of 25 people it's lucky if 10 make it to the destination, then you have to pray those 15 killed on route isn't your tank/healers!"?

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13 hours ago, stomposaurus said:

 

Could this not be changed to "Once the initial Horde rush gets nuked in by the towers you're screwed. Out of 25 people it's lucky if 10 make it to the destination, then you have to pray those 15 killed on route isn't your tank/healers!"?

i actually saw hordes making the route on their own, after the first horderush went through, so i call bs on this.

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Back dooring is the equivalent of having each team /random 100 and then just award the winner 3 marks and end the game.  There is no actual "strategy" involved.  Successful back doors only happen when the stars are aligned.  Since we're talking about a game with a completely random comp there sometimes may not be enough tanks or healers to do a back door.  What then?  Just "give up and lose"?  No. 

There are actually a lot of people who enjoy playing Alterac Valley, and those of us who do enjoy it actually want to win the game even if it takes longer than 15 minutes.  For us, it is pointless to wait for a 40v40 pvp battleground queue then go in and race to a PVE boss. 

I've gotten exalted leading maybe 10 premade AV's that lasted about 1.5 hr to 2 hr.  I've only joined maybe 5 pug games total since it came out.  Premades take a while to get in to a game, so we make the best of it.  It's just a bunch of random people so sometimes I don't have many tanks or healers.  Yet my team always wins.  We burn every tower, kill every commander/lieutenant/captain, summon the Ice Lord and force the other team to PVP.  We have a 100% win rate.  I average 2k-3k rep per game and 5-6k honor.  The honor keeps flowing with no diminishing returns because when you  hold the other team at a choke point they rage quit and are replaced with fresh honor. 

It's not the fastest way to gain rep or honor, but I'm not in there for honor or rep.  I'm in there to have fun, and to win.  Slash ignore the back door whiners in chat and enjoy your Alterac Valley folks.

In summary, you can win every game of AV if you know how to play it.  Now, start peeling that onion!

 

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If things were equal then yes it would be a coin flip.  But things are not equal so that's not a relevant argument.  

And yes you are going to lose if you have bad group composition.  Like in WSG if you don't have a flag runner (druid/mage) then you are likely going to lose.

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That makes no sense.  Random <> Equal.

You're zoning into a battleground with completely random people, who may or may not contribute anything to the team (random), who may or may not give a crap whether they win or lose (random). The comp is also random.  Hence, you may as well just /random 100 and give the winner 3 marks and end the BG without doing anything. 

When I run premades, I invite anyone that wants to join. I don't have any gear, skill, class or spec requirements. All I require is for people to follow the calls. Therefore, the only difference between my premade and solo queuing in is that you have made a commitment to follow the leader. 

"Back doorers" have no desire to PVP, and so they don't belong in a PVP battleground.  They just want easy rep so they don't care whether they win or lose.   They just want it to be over ASAP and get whatever rep they get. 

I can lead AV to a win with a bad group composition, and I do it all the time; no problem.  A battleground with 80 people in it cannot be compared to one with 20. Group comp makes a much bigger difference in WSG than it does in AV.  In AV, you don't need group comp to win. You just need a good leader and people who can follow instructions.  Of course it helps to have tanks and healers, and geared and/or skilled players, but none is required to win, it will just take longer without.

 

https://www.engadget.com/2012/08/31/rage-against-the-zerg-horde-premades-sew-up-alterac-valley-with/

 

(Disclaimer: I do not use any preform AV enabler or any other add-on to get my premade group in. We simply solo queue at the same time)

 

Pre vs Pre is a different story. With equally skilled leaders on either side, the team with the best comp, gear & skill will win, or in the case of equal teams, the best strategy.

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1 hour ago, piastoax said:

That makes no sense.  Random <> Equal.

You're zoning into a battleground with completely random people, who may or may not contribute anything to the team (random), who may or may not give a crap whether they win or lose (random). The comp is also random.  Hence, you may as well just /random 100 and give the winner 3 marks and end the BG without doing anything.

Again that is true if things were equal like WSG and AB. AV is not equal, only 1 team can go backdoor.

AV is a PvE BG so it makes sense for people to race to finish it instead of 2 hours of minimal honor and rep.  The problem is it's not a coin flip for horde so alliance turtle to mitigate horde's advantage which makes for long drawn games that most people do not enjoy.

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You're wrong.  The Alliance can rush into an undefended FW keep and cap relief hut just as easily as the Horde can jump into the undefended aid station.  If there are any defenders on either side, the blitz is not viable.  If people are rage quitting or coming into the battle late, the new players automatically become defenders; sometimes they have no choice as they meet the opposing blitz team en route.  The problem is that most of the time Alliance spend too much time grouping up in the field, and in some cases waste time killing Galv, which buys the Horde the time they need to finish first.  It's a completely random crap shoot whether either team will make it to the opposing boss without dying, let alone get in and cap the graveyard while it's undefended.  However, the truth of the matter is, I can win a game fairly quick even with the Alliance turtling. 

Anyway, it's so funny how Alliance are complaining about this EXACTLY the way they did in retail back in the day.  They complained so much that Bliz moved the Horde cave farther south, swaying the win ratio of these "back door" games to favor the Alliance.  However, it made absolutely no difference in games where players actually used the choke points and graveyards to control the battleground and did all the objectives.  We still won our games when doing the objectives on the map and forcing the enemy to PVP.  In most cases, we were able to push them into the starting cave and farm them in there for hours.  It was then that they added reinforcements so that the game wouldn't be an everlasting honor farm.  However, what that actually meant was we could finish the game without even killing the boss.  We would just kill 600 players and the game was over.  It made honor farming even faster. Both factions can utilize the same choke points by the way.

AV is definitely NOT a PVE BG.  It is a 40v40 epic PVP battleground  with PVE objectives on the side.  In a 90 minute game of AV I can get 3000+ rep and honor with people cheering "Lok Tar Ogar" and "For the Horde", begging to join the next game, and that's not even on AV weekend.  It may not compare per hour to spamming other battlegrounds, but it's a decent amount and people usually have much more fun.  Your statement of "most people do not enjoy" is actually nothing but speculation with no statistics or factual information to back it up.  In other words, pure rubbish.

There is in fact a very large community of folks out there who enjoy playing Alterac Valley for what it is.  If you don't, then just move along get your rep from lost games, the same way Horde do in the other BG's.  After all, once you hit exalted you'll never come back to AV, so why do you even care?

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Most people do not enjoy 2+ hour games.  There's a reason why 0 players who originally joined the game have all left 2 hours in.  Pretty much everything you stated in your thread is incorrect.  The only thing that you said that may have some merit are you experiences on blizz's servers so I can't refute that but everything else you said was "pure rubbish".

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2 hours ago, gambinho said:

i still cant believe that there are people in 2017 that think horde has the upperhand in av.

So horde's 75% win percentage is attributable to something other than an unintended map design flaw?  Why don't they have a win rate like that in the other bgs too?

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