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Upgraded Blue PvP Set on Elysium

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So something to work for other than titles, mounts, cheap potions, very high quality gear at the last ~3 ranks, the best weapons available in current content, and just proving yourselves the best at pvp?

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Since this became the defacto thread for this:

I actually support making this non-Blizzlike change given that patch progression emulation isn't always perfect and there are inherently some things that should be changed to resolve those overarching issues that Blizzard strove to resolve throughout the Vanilla timeline. Given that respec costs have already been altered I don't see why this is any more controversial and I fail to understand why this hasn't been addressed by the team.

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6 hours ago, Haestingas said:

So something to work for other than titles, mounts, cheap potions, very high quality gear at the last ~3 ranks, the best weapons available in current content, and just proving yourselves the best at pvp?

What titles, you decay every week. What mounts, did you see any pvper rank to 11 without an epic mount? Cheap potions LMAO! Did you even see the r12/13 gear for classes? It is utter dogshit for some classes in the pre update state.

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Nice to see a week has passed and this is still being ignored by the staff.

I've lost 5 regular players in my premades this week because "it's not worth ranking" 

Much fewer people play for these rewards. Only warriors and rogues have any real pve benefit from ranking now due to this change.

 

Had this discussion with whoever ran elysium before the server launch and initially it was stated that the server would update pvp gear at AQ. Still not perfect but a compromise.

 

I'm sure people would settle for that.

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The problem with PvP gear is even more complex than we thought:

  • r7-r10 blue gear (for lvl 58) for now is on par with t0 dungeon set. The situation is quite awkward: why would you ever spend 4-6 weeks to get a blue PvP set if you can easily obtain pre-bis gear from 5-mans? ZG relese will make PvP set even more obsolete and useless. There is no single point to grind up r10 for lvl 58 blue set because it's terrible for most classes.
  • r12-r13 gear has item lvl lower than t1 and is in general worse than t1 (in terms of stats budget). For some classes t1 (to say nothing of t2) is way better than the nerfed Field Marshal's set. What is the point to keep r12/r13 gear nerfed with t2 content release? People spend hundreds of hours to grind these sets to get an equivalent of nerfed t1?
  • If I recall correctly, updated lvl 60 pvp gear was supposed to be slightly worse than t1, while unnerfed r12\r13 was supposed to be slightly worse than t2.

For now it's completely counter-productive not only to rank for a blue gear, but for r12\r13 gear also: in most cases t1 set is much better and is much more accessible.

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1 hour ago, Zak Preston said:

r7-r10 blue gear (for lvl 58) for now is on par with t0 dungeon set

False.

1 hour ago, Zak Preston said:

r12-r13 gear has item lvl lower than t1 and is in general worse than t1 (in terms of stats budget).

Also not quite true.

1 hour ago, Zak Preston said:

If I recall correctly, updated lvl 60 pvp gear was supposed to be slightly worse than t1, while unnerfed r12\r13 was supposed to be slightly worse than t2.

Wrong again. Upgraded 60 PvP gear is better than T1. Upgraded epic PvP gear is better than T2.

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26 minutes ago, Sabre said:

False.

Also not quite true.

Wrong again. Upgraded 60 PvP gear is better than T1. Upgraded epic PvP gear is better than T2.

Proofs?

 

It seems that you don't know that uncommon, rare and epic items of the SAME item level (ilvl) will have completely different stats budget:

 

Let's check rogue sets:

  • Dungen-1/T0 set:  51-63 ilvl, lvl-58 r10 set is 63 ilvl. But who wears full dungeon set anyway?
  • t1 is 66 epic ilvl, while lvl 60 r10 set is 66-71 rare ilvl 
  • t2 is 76 epic ilvl, while upgraded r12\r13 set is 72-74 epic ilvl
  • Right now r12\r13 set seems to be ~60-62 epic ilvl

 

 

The item is assigned its stats. Each stat has a different value denoted by its StatMod, listed in the table below; this is multiplied by the Stat Value to give a true indication of the worth of that statistic. This is then raised to the 1.7095 power (Log2/Log1.5) as shown below:

  • (StatValue[1]*StatMod[1])1.7095

This is repeated for every stat on the item and the totals are summed together, then raised to the 1/1.7095 power, to give the ItemValue:

  • ItemValue = [(StatValue[1]*StatMod[1])1.7095 + (StatValue[2]*StatMod[2])1.7095 + ...]1/1.7095

This sum is divided by the SlotMod to give the value of stats allowed for that particular piece (greatest for Chest/Head/Legs and lower for Rings,Wrists etc)

  • ItemSlotValue = ItemValue / SlotMod

Finally, the quality of the item must be taken into account. For example, a green item at lv70 may have the same stats as a blue item at lv65, but the green item has much higher iLevel:

The third and final modification takes into account item quality. The end result is a calculated value for item level.

  • Uncommon: ilvl = ItemSlotValue * 2.0 + 8.00
  • Rare:           ilvl = ItemSlotValue * 1.8 + 0.75
  • Epic:            ilvl = ItemSlotValue * 1.2 + 26

This calculated item level usually matches Blizzards item level quite well.

 

Let's check rogue sets:

Dungen-1/T0 set:  51-63 ilvl, lvl-58 r10 set is 63 ilvl.

t1 is 66 epic ilvl, while lvl 60 r10 set is 66-71 rare ilvl 

t2 is 76 epic ilvl, while upgraded r12\r13 set is 72-74 epic ilvl

Right now r12\r13 set seems to be ~60-62 epic ilvl

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Guess it depends on the class but caster t0 has no damage stats at all so it's clearly worse than the lvl 58 blue set.  Also the caster t2 is awful right now and doesn't get updated until AQ, yet I don't see any threads asking for them to update it even though by the time AQ is released caster t2 will be obsolete.  It feels like if they update pvp gear now then the whole progressive itemization philosophy becomes inconsistent.  Couldn't someone just say why not add the patch 1.10 dungeon items since by the time patch 1.10 hits they will be mostly useless since most lvl 60s will have done MC/BWL/ZG/AQ40/AQ20 and not worth the time investment to acquire?  Why would anyone get the updated dungeon gear at that point, whereas if they released it now it would be way more useful.  Or do we only do custom itemization progression for pvp items and not dungeon items which have a far greater affect on the player base since only like ~0.1% of the population will get to rank 10+?

I think what they originally planned on doing was updating the pvp gear 2 weeks after AQ is released which seems like a good solution.  I know in order to be blizzlike it's suppose to get updated in 1.11 but I think updating it shortly after AQ has pretty much zero impact on pve and the updated rank 13 pvp gear is more on par with t2.5 than it is for t2, especially since caster t2 doesn't get updated until AQ patch.

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2 hours ago, quasexort said:

Guess it depends on the class but caster t0 has no damage stats at all so it's clearly worse than the lvl 58 blue set.  Also the caster t2 is awful right now and doesn't get updated until AQ, yet I don't see any threads asking for them to update it even though by the time AQ is released caster t2 will be obsolete.  It feels like if they update pvp gear now then the whole progressive itemization philosophy becomes inconsistent.  Couldn't someone just say why not add the patch 1.10 dungeon items since by the time patch 1.10 hits they will be mostly useless since most lvl 60s will have done MC/BWL/ZG/AQ40/AQ20 and not worth the time investment to acquire?  Why would anyone get the updated dungeon gear at that point, whereas if they released it now it would be way more useful.  Or do we only do custom itemization progression for pvp items and not dungeon items which have a far greater affect on the player base since only like ~0.1% of the population will get to rank 10+?

I think what they originally planned on doing was updating the pvp gear 2 weeks after AQ is released which seems like a good solution.  I know in order to be blizzlike it's suppose to get updated in 1.11 but I think updating it shortly after AQ has pretty much zero impact on pve and the updated rank 13 pvp gear is more on par with t2.5 than it is for t2, especially since caster t2 doesn't get updated until AQ patch.

dungeon-2 set or t-0.5 was a catchup set that allowed more or less fresh players to get pre-raid gear. Basically Blizz has updated pre-raid gear.

r12\r13 epic PvP set is has lower item lvl than t2: 72-74 vs 76 respectively, so it's obvious that it should be updated at or after BWL release.

 

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5 hours ago, quasexort said:

Guess it depends on the class but caster t0 has no damage stats at all so it's clearly worse than the lvl 58 blue set.  Also the caster t2 is awful right now and doesn't get updated until AQ, yet I don't see any threads asking for them to update it even though by the time AQ is released caster t2 will be obsolete.  It feels like if they update pvp gear now then the whole progressive itemization philosophy becomes inconsistent.  Couldn't someone just say why not add the patch 1.10 dungeon items since by the time patch 1.10 hits they will be mostly useless since most lvl 60s will have done MC/BWL/ZG/AQ40/AQ20 and not worth the time investment to acquire?  Why would anyone get the updated dungeon gear at that point, whereas if they released it now it would be way more useful.  Or do we only do custom itemization progression for pvp items and not dungeon items which have a far greater affect on the player base since only like ~0.1% of the population will get to rank 10+?

I think what they originally planned on doing was updating the pvp gear 2 weeks after AQ is released which seems like a good solution.  I know in order to be blizzlike it's suppose to get updated in 1.11 but I think updating it shortly after AQ has pretty much zero impact on pve and the updated rank 13 pvp gear is more on par with t2.5 than it is for t2, especially since caster t2 doesn't get updated until AQ patch.

I agree with almost everything you're saying other than one small area.

The reason people are hoping for upgrades is because Nostalrius did so, they set a bit of a precident for it which the vanilla playerbase seems to largely preffer than waiting until Naxx and as such have come to expect it. Furthermore, at least t2 does get updated while it's still relevant (just).

 

I suppose alot of the concern around this topic is that without an alternative timeline the rewards don't even come close to being worth the effort required to attain them which makes it drastically different to updated dungeon blues.

 

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7 hours ago, Jazzwah said:

imo the best solution would be to upgrade the blue set with ZG patch, and purple with AQ

Do you have any specific reasoning for saying that the blue set should be better than the purple set for any amount of time?

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Elysium devs, please look into this if you want a healthy pvp community. I donated so much to you guys only to find out that pvp is basically pointless at 60 with this gear as a reward.

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While I agree that it would be nice to have some decent rewards for PvP you can still PvP with no rewards and have fun.  I still have fun playing BF1942 after 15 years and there's no rewards or progression.

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Ill just confess here that this is the reason I don't rank my other characters. Sure, I might play a game or two with my friends on a rare occasion. But the Elysium staff have made sure that I will not have any rewards for putting in effort there, thus I have decided to not put any effort in it for my alts.

 

I think I'd be awesome to fight for some good rewards, until then, not ranking. 

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Just to offer some evidence, this un-blizzlike change was done in Nostalrius, and it had no negative impact in the gameplay whatsoever.

And yes, before it was implemented a lot of people complained about it. The change didn't affect PVE at all, because most PVErs don't rank so grinding for a few weeks in order to get a piece of blue gear which can be easily replaced makes no sense, and it did make pvp grind a bit easier, particularly for casuals.

Its a good change.

 

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52 minutes ago, Dralek said:

Just to offer some evidence, this un-blizzlike change was done in Nostalrius, and it had no negative impact in the gameplay whatsoever.

And yes, before it was implemented a lot of people complained about it. The change didn't affect PVE at all, because most PVErs don't rank so grinding for a few weeks in order to get a piece of blue gear which can be easily replaced makes no sense, and it did make pvp grind a bit easier, particularly for casuals.

Its a good change.

 

Can you even cite the exact changes they made to the system on Nostalrius? I bet you can't.

If you can, and had actually played PVP (not raidlog PVE) during that 8-9 month period where they fucked the queue system up (something they reversed towards the end of the server's lifetime since they realized it was an awful decision, however the damage was already dealt) you wouldn't be spouting this garbage. 

It sure as shit didn't make the PVP grind easier for 'casuals' when the higher bracket caps were 1mil+ on Alliance where everyone got to play premade v pug all day everyday (due to the skewed premade v premade priority system which benefited the faction which had less people overall queuing, Alliance in this case) - whereas on Horde you had to solo queue/small group and play 20 hours a day to compete with the VPN-equipped individuals who accountshared and played several shifts.

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33 minutes ago, donkey said:

Can you even cite the exact changes they made to the system on Nostalrius? I bet you can't.

If you can, and had actually played PVP (not raidlog PVE) during that 8-9 month period where they fucked the queue system up (something they reversed towards the end of the server's lifetime since they realized it was an awful decision, however the damage was already dealt) you wouldn't be spouting this garbage. 

It sure as shit didn't make the PVP grind easier for 'casuals' when the higher bracket caps were 1mil+ on Alliance where everyone got to play premade v pug all day everyday (due to the skewed premade v premade priority system which benefited the faction which had less people overall queuing, Alliance in this case) - whereas on Horde you had to solo queue/small group and play 20 hours a day to compete with the VPN-equipped individuals who accountshared and played several shifts.

As far as I remember, they implemented the updated versions of the rank 7,8 and 10 sets, along with the epic shoulder/weapon rewards from Arathi Basin rep (Defilers/Arathor). I do not remember if at the time they did update the epic rank items, but then again this isn't what the people are requesting.

Your complain seems to focus on the queue system, rather than the items itself, so your response seems to have little to do with what I said. When they implemented the items most higher ranks blew up in anger, but in the end it didn't change much. The gear gap with raid epics was still large, yet the blue items did not impact PVE content at all.

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