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Nirinia

Give a pala a taunt...

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22 minutes ago, DPS said:

Oh my God! You're really blind and selfish...

Im i bit busy right now. Will answer a bit later. Jsut noticed you're totally not readyig what I'm talking to you. Ret pala cant do 2.5k hits with shields, fury can't miss(cause of hit cap), KTM is 100% accurate addon(cause using blizzlike values), warrior need really low ammount of rage for rotation and other things you simply didn't read.

 

Will answer a bit later.

I think you are the person who don't bother reading or tend to ignore things. I am just trying to answer all of your statements and questions given , you deny everything without any evidence given.

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Ret pala cant do 2.5k hits with shields, fury can't miss(cause of hit cap),

Neither Fury Warrior would do 1k TPS with Shields and Def Stance , nor he will ever spam HS on cd , even if he have hit cap , he still have change to Dodge/Parry.

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KTM is 100% accurate addon(cause using blizzlike values), warrior need really low ammount of rage for rotation and other things you simply didn't read.

Since you push over your propaganda too much , here is an evidence for you that KTM is not at any cost accurate addon and it is not using any proper values :

You can see here , each time the mob knock me , it shows threats reduction , in reality it doesn't reduce the threats at all .

2:00 you will see the other Paladin have 20% more threats than me , according to real values if he do more than 10% threats then he should over aggro, as you can see he stays next to the mob (which counts the melee values) .  In this Video you can see this is not the case.

3:11 you will see the other Paladin have nearly 50% more threats than me , this should have been 100% overaggro , but in reality it was not.

Neither the current mob , neither the current knockback shown should do any threats reduction.

Your logic and propaganda about KTM again goes Titanic.

/Kind regards Killerduki

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Killer you are not taking into account the global cooldowns that warriors spam that also proc TF.  Yes pally get more TF procs, but it isn't 2x at many in 1 minute, but it is a lot more.

They need to bring back shield slam and shield bash proccing MH as well.  All abilities and chance on hit procs including DMC: Maelstrom, and fiery weapon enchant / lifestealing should be able to proc MH abilities.

Just like SoR does.  

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@killerduki

KTM is 100% accurate when theres talking about threat regen. Server scripters are using same sources with threat formulas as KTM creators did back to that days.

Vid you showing isn't good enough "proof" cause just that mob is using knockback spell name same as some bosses uses. Thats not mean that this mob is reducing your threat. Thats bug dont have anything to compare with KTM formulas, as you stated em "wrong".

 

I checked your BiS pala items:

3tvIpcl.jpg

R94BYmL.jpg

As we can see, paladin is only 8k HP while raid buffed and only 275 spell damage.

While warrior is on 11k HP....  8k HP is really toooooo low numbers for tanks! Ok, you can swap supreme power to titans, but then you'll get 9.4k HP and ONLY 125 spell damage! And still, 9.4k HP is not so much, mean your healers should be highly focused to keep you alive at most Naxx bosses.

As we can see, warrior is better at EACH point: HP, armor, avoidance, block, block value and yeah, def stance in additional (and Last Stand, Shield Wall, Lifegiving Gem).

What pally can counter to this? TankPoints (true HP addon) talks that warrior can eat ~67% more damage than pally, before he dies.

 

Still you can talk bullshit about  you can tank hard bosses, and I will agree you, since I tanked em too with fury gear ;-)

 

 

 

 

And go again about fury with shield TPS:

vqehWU9.jpg

So, as we can see, primal tank stats is a bit higher than your prot pally, buts its also 1884AP and 30% to crit, while hit capped. 468 avg white hit with 2.6 speed(~2.0, because flurry uptime is ~95+%)

So, lets go again:

BT: 850 hit, +crit -armor (10%) -def stance penalty = ~900 avg hit * 1.3 threat mod = ~1200 threat per BT = ~200 TPS

Sunder: 2x sunders in rotation(6sec)= 261*2*1.3= 680 threat each 6sec = ~110 TPS

Revenge: 1x per rotation(6sec) = 315 + 140(crit,t3 and armor/def stance penalty) *1.3 =  ~600 threat = ~100 TPS

HS: 625 default, avg ~700dmg(crit, def stance, armor counted) = ~1100 avg threat = ~550 TPS

White: ~430 avg hit (glance(vs305), armor, crit, def stance included), with avg AS 2.0 we're got ~ 280 TPS

Summary:

~960 TPS w/o counting miss/dodge, but still I didn't counted Crusader enchant too(that is rocks here) if you're fighting hard hitting boss(or you can get more DPS items for any boss!)

~700 TPS with BT+Revenge+2 sunders+autoattack rotation (w/o HS at all!)

 

Keep in mind that this calculations where made for pretty low damage stats, mean changing some tank items to lower your tank stats will highly buff this numbers!

Oh, yeah, and If you'll get 15 talents in Prot for +15% threat in def stance this numbers will be much higher! and only things you lost will be 5%parry.

P.S. Impale talent isn't counted in my calculations.

 

 

So, show us ur TPS calculations for prot pala with 125 and 275 spell damage. Or you can only bla-bla-bla?

 

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6 hours ago, Undertanker said:

Killer you are not taking into account the global cooldowns that warriors spam that also proc TF.  Yes pally get more TF procs, but it isn't 2x at many in 1 minute, but it is a lot more.

They need to bring back shield slam and shield bash proccing MH as well.  All abilities and chance on hit procs including DMC: Maelstrom, and fiery weapon enchant / lifestealing should be able to proc MH abilities.

Just like SoR does.  

That's why i said , with all abilities he would go up to probably 30-35% proc rate , i didn't deny that.

Speaking about Abilities and Trinkets , if paladin have Maelstrom and fiery weapon in combination with Seal of Righteousness , this mean proc fiesta , you would probably have 80% proc rate on TF according to that logic , Seal of Righteousness will also boost the procs of Maelstrom and Fiery weapon where they will once again boost TF procs too and eachother procs too.

3 hours ago, DPS said:

@killerduki

KTM is 100% accurate when theres talking about threat regen. Server scripters are using same sources with threat formulas as KTM creators did back to that days.

Vid you showing isn't good enough "proof" cause just that mob is using knockback spell name same as some bosses uses. Thats not mean that this mob is reducing your threat. Thats bug dont have anything to compare with KTM formulas, as you stated em "wrong".

 

I checked your BiS pala items:

3tvIpcl.jpg

R94BYmL.jpg

As we can see, paladin is only 8k HP while raid buffed and only 275 spell damage.

While warrior is on 11k HP....  8k HP is really toooooo low numbers for tanks! Ok, you can swap supreme power to titans, but then you'll get 9.4k HP and ONLY 125 spell damage! And still, 9.4k HP is not so much, mean your healers should be highly focused to keep you alive at most Naxx bosses.

As we can see, warrior is better at EACH point: HP, armor, avoidance, block, block value and yeah, def stance in additional (and Last Stand, Shield Wall, Lifegiving Gem).

What pally can counter to this? TankPoints (true HP addon) talks that warrior can eat ~67% more damage than pally, before he dies.

 

Still you can talk bullshit about  you can tank hard bosses, and I will agree you, since I tanked em too with fury gear ;-)

 

 

 

 

And go again about fury with shield TPS:

vqehWU9.jpg

So, as we can see, primal tank stats is a bit higher than your prot pally, buts its also 1884AP and 30% to crit, while hit capped. 468 avg white hit with 2.6 speed(~2.0, because flurry uptime is ~95+%)

So, lets go again:

BT: 850 hit, +crit -armor (10%) -def stance penalty = ~900 avg hit * 1.3 threat mod = ~1200 threat per BT = ~200 TPS

Sunder: 2x sunders in rotation(6sec)= 261*2*1.3= 680 threat each 6sec = ~110 TPS

Revenge: 1x per rotation(6sec) = 315 + 140(crit,t3 and armor/def stance penalty) *1.3 =  ~600 threat = ~100 TPS

HS: 625 default, avg ~700dmg(crit, def stance, armor counted) = ~1100 avg threat = ~550 TPS

White: ~430 avg hit (glance(vs305), armor, crit, def stance included), with avg AS 2.0 we're got ~ 280 TPS

Summary:

~960 TPS w/o counting miss/dodge, but still I didn't counted Crusader enchant too(that is rocks here) if you're fighting hard hitting boss(or you can get more DPS items for any boss!)

~700 TPS with BT+Revenge+2 sunders+autoattack rotation (w/o HS at all!)

 

Keep in mind that this calculations where made for pretty low damage stats, mean changing some tank items to lower your tank stats will highly buff this numbers!

Oh, yeah, and If you'll get 15 talents in Prot for +15% threat in def stance this numbers will be much higher! and only things you lost will be 5%parry.

P.S. Impale talent isn't counted in my calculations.

 

 

So, show us ur TPS calculations for prot pala with 125 and 275 spell damage. Or you can only bla-bla-bla?

 

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KTM is 100% accurate when theres talking about threat regen. Server scripters are using same sources with threat formulas as KTM creators did back to that days.

Vid you showing isn't good enough "proof" cause just that mob is using knockback spell name same as some bosses uses. Thats not mean that this mob is reducing your threat. Thats bug dont have anything to compare with KTM formulas, as you stated em "wrong".

 

Gosh Jesus Christ dude , you got Video evidence how KTM is working incorrect and you tend to ignore that?!

Blessing of Wisdom does not also increase threats, with KTM it shows threats increasing which is again wrong and incorrect.

10661930_10152381277015418_8988045747656

10633189_10152399822770418_1310966322561

Why i am not on KTM number 1??? You can clearly see the Bosses in both screenshots pointing at me and i have the threats.

Stop making fun of yourself regarding KTM , is not accurate at all , or you will again try to compensate us another 60 damage = 6 stamina top kek theory.

As we can see, paladin is only 8k HP while raid buffed and only 275 spell damage.

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While warrior is on 11k HP....  8k HP is really toooooo low numbers for tanks! Ok, you can swap supreme power to titans, but then you'll get 9.4k HP and ONLY 125 spell damage! And still, 9.4k HP is not so much, mean your healers should be highly focused to keep you alive at most Naxx bosses.

1- Tanking you would use Titan flask when you try to compare frogs with cabbages in order to survive .

2- What kind of Talents are you using ?

3- What server are you testing this ? (we all know the private servers are using wrong formula for Base Dodge and Agi/Dodge scaling).

4- How come Paladin with more Agility have less Dodge than the Warrior?  Paladin does scale higher than Warrior with dodge and have higher base Dodge rating.

We can all see your addon is either showing incorrect or the server you test have wrong values. (For example Nost had flat 5% dodge for everyone regardless which was incorrect).

1965644_10152377886100418_58781310289077

You can see i am not even in BiS gear and i got 11.3k HP fully buffed , with BiSf gear i would go up to 14k HP.

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As we can see, warrior is better at EACH point: HP, armor, avoidance, block, block value and yeah, def stance in additional (and Last Stand, Shield Wall, Lifegiving Gem).

There is nothing better about armor, it's instead worse for Warriors because they loose the damage reduction from Def Stance from it, Paladin increases it as opposite of Warriors.

The stats you shown (pointing out the Dodge) is completely incorrect because the Project you play there have incorrect values, Paladin scale higher with Agility compare to Warrior and has bigger Base Dodge than Warrior. (Which is not the case you show), give please next time values from Elysium project at current fixes.

You completely forget the LoH replacing Last Stand , Bubble replacing Shield wall and most important is the Block Value you get from Sapphiron Trinket.

Your Lifegiving Gem will turn into dust if paladin use Sapphiron Trinket , since it gives him 30% more Block Value.

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What pally can counter to this? TankPoints (true HP addon) talks that warrior can eat ~67% more damage than pally, before he dies.

Your true addons are like always Titanic showing incorrect stuffs. But even if your addon is "Correct" , it disapproves you by miles away , everyone can see the difference between Warrior Tank and Paladin tank regarding to Damage reduction is 2% (WoW , HUGE). Not to mention you didn't show Talents used , measured Block Value and most important , you didn't even use Flask of Titans to Paladin compare to the Warrior with it.

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Still you can talk bullshit about  you can tank hard bosses, and I will agree you, since I tanked em too with fury gear ;-)

Go ahead and tank Twins with Fury Gear/Spec , make sure you do this in Anathema, otherwise your logic goes Titanic again.
 

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And most important , with your Tank Gear/Spec , everyone can see that even Attack Power for Paladin is much bigger than the Warrior , not to mention the Spell Damage by Consumes, your Prot Warrior will turn into Dust regarding threats.

So, as we can see, primal tank stats is a bit higher than your prot pally, buts its also 1884AP and 30% to crit, while hit capped. 468 avg white hit with 2.6 speed(~2.0, because flurry uptime is ~95+%)

So, lets go again:

BT: 850 hit, +crit -armor (10%) -def stance penalty = ~900 avg hit * 1.3 threat mod = ~1200 threat per BT = ~200 TPS

Sunder: 2x sunders in rotation(6sec)= 261*2*1.3= 680 threat each 6sec = ~110 TPS

Revenge: 1x per rotation(6sec) = 315 + 140(crit,t3 and armor/def stance penalty) *1.3 =  ~600 threat = ~100 TPS

HS: 625 default, avg ~700dmg(crit, def stance, armor counted) = ~1100 avg threat = ~550 TPS

White: ~430 avg hit (glance(vs305), armor, crit, def stance included), with avg AS 2.0 we're got ~ 280 TPS

Summary:

~960 TPS w/o counting miss/dodge, but still I didn't counted Crusader enchant too(that is rocks here) if you're fighting hard hitting boss(or you can get more DPS items for any boss!)

~700 TPS with BT+Revenge+2 sunders+autoattack rotation (w/o HS at all!)

 

Keep in mind that this calculations where made for pretty low damage stats, mean changing some tank items to lower your tank stats will highly buff this numbers!

Oh, yeah, and If you'll get 15 talents in Prot for +15% threat in def stance this numbers will be much higher! and only things you lost will be 5%parry.

P.S. Impale talent isn't counted in my calculations.

 

 

So, show us ur TPS calculations for prot pala with 125 and 275 spell damage. Or you can only bla-bla-bla?

 

You still compare Frogs and Cabbages.

If Paladin get full 2.5 , mixed with some Tanking Gear + spec Retribution , your Warrior will turn into Dust regarding threats.

All your bla-bla-bla theory goes Titanic anytime you try to prove something, you have no clue about Paladins at all , therefore you try to get away showing "Fury Warrior" theat, Retribution Paladin in that case is something you will gladly ignore , but i am sorry it doesn't work that way.

/Kind regards Killerduki

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@killerduki

Are you serious? You're trolling? 

Okay, you're using KTM <Mesmerize> edition, I'm creator of that mod. 

Any person with at least average analyzing skills can get that KTM calculates only your own threat, that mean that if you want correct values for all raid members, all of your raidmembers should use correct version of KTM. At Twins there wasn't blizzlike trigger for aggro wipe, thats why players with old KTM version wouldn't wipe threat in KTM on teleport, thats not addon issue but server and players(who are too stupid to get the reason of that bug).

At thaddius there were server bug, when sometimes random persons goes out of combat for milliseconds (but boss still saves their aggro), each time you're leaving combat KTM will wipe your threat, also BoW was manually set as aggro gaining spell cause that KTM version was made to fit Feenix server, at Feenix BoW generates aggro (all healing/powergain spells(and items a-ka potions) except few are generating threat). All threat regen formulas (rules, spells coef, aggro buffs etc) are absolutely same as all private servers are running (cause everyone claims that this is blizzlike formulas). Yeah, there's still possible bugs, but only cause of players who's not using(or using wrong KTM version) or server flaws(no or wrong triggers, custom aggro rules/values, leaving combat issues, boss evade issues).

 

All screenshots are made at elysium server core. Warrior got higher dodge cause of T3 got 4% to dodge(head,chest,legs,boots) ;-) When pala get on his armor only 1% at shoulders. Agi/Dodge are ~same (20agi for warrior and 19.8agi for pala, while pala base dodge is 0.7% higher, so pala dodge wouldn't be much higher)

Oh, yeah and 4more agi paladin have is looks so funny :-) only 4!!!!

 

11k HP as prot pala? With full world buffs? Are you going to tank only with world buffs up? Yeah lol, T1 warrior able to get ~11k HP world buffed.

And T3 warrior got 3k more HP while world buffed, and still warrior have enough HP to tank hard bosses w/o world buffs. and btw with Lordaeron's buff warriors are able to hit 15k HP w/o using Last Stand/Lifegiving gem. Overgeared and worldbuffed warriors can easy tank KT even w/o interrupting him.

ovPKISh.jpg

 

And you forgot that with titan flask your paladin got ONLY 125 spell damage = your TPS fucked up.

Talents? Both warrior and paladin got maxed all tanking stats talents (parry, armor, def) so dont worry about that - you can reproduct it yourself if you're not believing ;-)

My addon shows 100% correct values, they are identical with values in spellbook - I can make new ss to show you ;-)

 

Again about flask of the titans: I didn't used it because you told that you're using Supreme power ;-) Wanna add titans? - just simply add 1200hp = 9481 HP hahaha, still very low!

 

 

Block value is shit stat VS bosses. If boss hits you for ~4k, 200 block value won't show any proffit. And ofc its useless again spells. Go pwn Anub corpse scarabs with your block! And leave boss fights to Warriors!

 

 

And yeah, right now "bla-bla-bla" its you! Cause I'm showing proofs, calculations. You're just claiming yourself as THE ONE AND ONLY tanking paladin, and ofc you rocks! Just everyone around is so stupid if they can't allow paladins to tank raids.

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Guys, can't we agree that besides tanking aoe trash paladin tanks are a liability (as in consuming raid relevant debuff slots, no taunts, non reliable crushing blow mitigation, slowing down raid progression due to mana breaks, no spec specific cooldowns to react properly to high inbound damage situations)? Sure thing, they could tank most of the bosses without taunt rotations, but with todays raids being all about optimizing run times and dps I would not see that working in any efficient way.

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21 минуту назад, wurzlsepp сказал:

Guys, can't we agree that besides tanking aoe trash paladin tanks are a liability (as in consuming raid relevant debuff slots, no taunts, non reliable crushing blow mitigation, slowing down raid progression due to mana breaks, no spec specific cooldowns to react properly to high inbound damage situations)? Sure thing, they could tank most of the bosses without taunt rotations, but with todays raids being all about optimizing run times and dps I would not see that working in any efficient way.

Im totally agree with you! =)

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Especially if you consider that a feral druid would make a better off tank:

- Can easily hit the armor cap

- Brings an awesome group buff

- Battlerez / Innervate

- Has higher rage gen / tps than prot warriors

- Def cooldowns

- CC immunities

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1 hour ago, DPS said:

@killerduki

Are you serious? You're trolling? 

Okay, you're using KTM <Mesmerize> edition, I'm creator of that mod. 

Any person with at least average analyzing skills can get that KTM calculates only your own threat, that mean that if you want correct values for all raid members, all of your raidmembers should use correct version of KTM. At Twins there wasn't blizzlike trigger for aggro wipe, thats why players with old KTM version wouldn't wipe threat in KTM on teleport, thats not addon issue but server and players(who are too stupid to get the reason of that bug).

At thaddius there were server bug, when sometimes random persons goes out of combat for milliseconds (but boss still saves their aggro), each time you're leaving combat KTM will wipe your threat, also BoW was manually set as aggro gaining spell cause that KTM version was made to fit Feenix server, at Feenix BoW generates aggro (all healing/powergain spells(and items a-ka potions) except few are generating threat). All threat regen formulas (rules, spells coef, aggro buffs etc) are absolutely same as all private servers are running (cause everyone claims that this is blizzlike formulas). Yeah, there's still possible bugs, but only cause of players who's not using(or using wrong KTM version) or server flaws(no or wrong triggers, custom aggro rules/values, leaving combat issues, boss evade issues).

 

All screenshots are made at elysium server core. Warrior got higher dodge cause of T3 got 4% to dodge(head,chest,legs,boots) ;-) When pala get on his armor only 1% at shoulders. Agi/Dodge are ~same (20agi for warrior and 19.8agi for pala, while pala base dodge is 0.7% higher, so pala dodge wouldn't be much higher)

Oh, yeah and 4more agi paladin have is looks so funny :-) only 4!!!!

 

11k HP as prot pala? With full world buffs? Are you going to tank only with world buffs up? Yeah lol, T1 warrior able to get ~11k HP world buffed.

And T3 warrior got 3k more HP while world buffed, and still warrior have enough HP to tank hard bosses w/o world buffs. and btw with Lordaeron's buff warriors are able to hit 15k HP w/o using Last Stand/Lifegiving gem. Overgeared and worldbuffed warriors can easy tank KT even w/o interrupting him.

ovPKISh.jpg

 

And you forgot that with titan flask your paladin got ONLY 125 spell damage = your TPS fucked up.

Talents? Both warrior and paladin got maxed all tanking stats talents (parry, armor, def) so dont worry about that - you can reproduct it yourself if you're not believing ;-)

My addon shows 100% correct values, they are identical with values in spellbook - I can make new ss to show you ;-)

 

Again about flask of the titans: I didn't used it because you told that you're using Supreme power ;-) Wanna add titans? - just simply add 1200hp = 9481 HP hahaha, still very low!

 

 

Block value is shit stat VS bosses. If boss hits you for ~4k, 200 block value won't show any proffit. And ofc its useless again spells. Go pwn Anub corpse scarabs with your block! And leave boss fights to Warriors!

 

 

And yeah, right now "bla-bla-bla" its you! Cause I'm showing proofs, calculations. You're just claiming yourself as THE ONE AND ONLY tanking paladin, and ofc you rocks! Just everyone around is so stupid if they can't allow paladins to tank raids.

Quote

Are you serious? You're trolling? 

Okay, you're using KTM <Mesmerize> edition, I'm creator of that mod. 

Any person with at least average analyzing skills can get that KTM calculates only your own threat, that mean that if you want correct values for all raid members, all of your raidmembers should use correct version of KTM. At Twins there wasn't blizzlike trigger for aggro wipe, thats why players with old KTM version wouldn't wipe threat in KTM on teleport, thats not addon issue but server and players(who are too stupid to get the reason of that bug).

At thaddius there were server bug, when sometimes random persons goes out of combat for milliseconds (but boss still saves their aggro), each time you're leaving combat KTM will wipe your threat, also BoW was manually set as aggro gaining spell cause that KTM version was made to fit Feenix server, at Feenix BoW generates aggro (all healing/powergain spells(and items a-ka potions) except few are generating threat). All threat regen formulas (rules, spells coef, aggro buffs etc) are absolutely same as all private servers are running (cause everyone claims that this is blizzlike formulas). Yeah, there's still possible bugs, but only cause of players who's not using(or using wrong KTM version) or server flaws(no or wrong triggers, custom aggro rules/values, leaving combat issues, boss evade issues).

Too much bla bla bla with excuses when you got 2 different version of evidence (video and screenshot) that KTM is not reliable addon at all.

Neither i am using KTM Mesmerise (deleted because it was garbage and not working) , neither Feenix had any issue with BoW aggro, you are again making fool of your self bringing another Titanic logic.

You just said KTM is Blizzlike , well , everyone saw that is disaster to measure.
 

Quote

 

All screenshots are made at elysium server core. Warrior got higher dodge cause of T3 got 4% to dodge(head,chest,legs,boots) ;-) When pala get on his armor only 1% at shoulders. Agi/Dodge are ~same (20agi for warrior and 19.8agi for pala, while pala base dodge is 0.7% higher, so pala dodge wouldn't be much higher)

Oh, yeah and 4more agi paladin have is looks so funny :-) only 4!!!!

 

You completely dodged the part where Paladin have more Parry and the difference between Paladin and Warrior Tank are 2% on surviving according to your addon. (Well done).

Now you neglect and ignore the part about Block Value where Paladin will get 30% extra from the Items + Sapphiron trinket turning your Warrior into Dust.

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11k HP as prot pala? With full world buffs? Are you going to tank only with world buffs up? Yeah lol, T1 warrior able to get ~11k HP world buffed.

Where you again , ignore the part of the screenshot which shows you i am still using 50% Blue Gear (Pre Raid), not even BiS .

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And T3 warrior got 3k more HP while world buffed, and still warrior have enough HP to tank hard bosses w/o world buffs. and btw with Lordaeron's buff warriors are able to hit 15k HP w/o using Last Stand/Lifegiving gem. Overgeared and worldbuffed warriors can easy tank KT even w/o interrupting him.

Paladin with full BiSf (which you deny the blue gear from the Screenshot shown) will have 14k HP , i never denied the more Stamina Warrior get , but Paladin Block Value turns your extra Stamina into Dust.

Oh , i forgot your logic 60 damage = 6 stamina.

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And you forgot that with titan flask your paladin got ONLY 125 spell damage = your TPS fucked up.

And the part where it was still better TPS than your Warrior tank shown in the screenshot by miles, even with Attack Power shown in the screenshots.
 

Quote

 

Talents? Both warrior and paladin got maxed all tanking stats talents (parry, armor, def) so dont worry about that - you can reproduct it yourself if you're not believing ;-)

My addon shows 100% correct values, they are identical with values in spellbook - I can make new ss to show you ;-)

 

Why you didn't shown then the screenshots with Talents used and the screenshot from "Base Dodge","Base Parry","Base Block" from the "Spell Book"?

I don't need any Addon to preach how much defense i got , when i can see from original sources without any fake and false modification.

Your Addon , again , same as KTM can be wrong , where you could simple show the original sources instead.

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Again about flask of the titans: I didn't used it because you told that you're using Supreme power ;-) Wanna add titans? - just simply add 1200hp = 9481 HP hahaha, still very low!

You try to manipulate comparison between "Warrior Tank surviving" and "Warrior Fury TPS" , this is why you are getting ridiculous and confused .

When you said "Fury TPS" , then i have posted about Supreme power , but when you say "Warrior Tank surviving" , then you should talk about surviving.

You can't be Fury and Prot at the same time , this is not Wrath of the Lich King to use Duel Spec , your logic goes Titanic once again.

Either Prot Paladin vs Prot Warrior or Either Retri Paladin vs Fury Warrior , no matter which one you will choose , Paladin will turn your warrior into Dust regarding threats.

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Block value is shit stat VS bosses. If boss hits you for ~4k, 200 block value won't show any proffit. And ofc its useless again spells. Go pwn Anub corpse scarabs with your block! And leave boss fights to Warriors!

You probably live in different world as it seems , Block Value is indeed more viable stat than Stamina , but right , everyone can see your logic 60 damage = 6 stamina , no wonder why you trash talk and why your logic is Titanic.

If you have 60 Block Value , thru the whole duration of fight , this is probably as i mention 10k damage over 5 minutes (depend on the fight and stats) , 10k damage equal to 1k Stamina , talking that Block Value is shit stat vs Bosses is nonsence and Garbage.

Quote

And yeah, right now "bla-bla-bla" its you! Cause I'm showing proofs, calculations. You're just claiming yourself as THE ONE AND ONLY tanking paladin, and ofc you rocks! Just everyone around is so stupid if they can't allow paladins to tank raids.

You gave 0 evidence,the only thing you talk is Garbage and Nonsense , trying to get away from the evidence given by ignoring it,  i am still waiting you to tank Twins as Fury Warrior and give evidence for that, where you claimed yourself can do it , or Maexxna tanking as a Fury.

51 minutes ago, wurzlsepp said:

Guys, can't we agree that besides tanking aoe trash paladin tanks are a liability (as in consuming raid relevant debuff slots, no taunts, non reliable crushing blow mitigation, slowing down raid progression due to mana breaks, no spec specific cooldowns to react properly to high inbound damage situations)? Sure thing, they could tank most of the bosses without taunt rotations, but with todays raids being all about optimizing run times and dps I would not see that working in any efficient way.

If you had at least 1% IQ in your brain , then you would gone thru the Topic and read instead talking the exactly same story which was disapproved with facts and evidence.

22 minutes ago, wurzlsepp said:

Especially if you consider that a feral druid would make a better off tank:

- Can easily hit the armor cap

- Brings an awesome group buff

- Battlerez / Innervate

- Has higher rage gen / tps than prot warriors

- Def cooldowns

- CC immunities

Have you ever seen Feral Tanking Maexxna and Twins ?

None of the things you talk is actually correct , neither any of the tanks are better or worse , every tank has it's own ups and downs , first give me at least 1 Video or Screenshot with Feral Tanking Maexxna and Twins , then i might believe you, otherwise you talk nonsense with theory based of a garbage.

/Kind regards Killerduki

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@killerduki

14k HP? hahaha....  GL! 12k and 125 SPELL DAMAGE ONLY!

rXubI0F.jpg

 

and yeah, according to my addon, Total reduction between bis pally and warrior is ~3%(2.9% to be fair). But warrior is also got 22% more HP. Cmon! Are you blind? Shield Wall, Last Stand, Lifegiving gem are also making warrior undying.

Go tank adds with ur block value! Its useless stat! Block is  good, while it gives you crit/crush immune, but block vallue is just "bonus" "secondary" stat.

 

 

About Feral tanks:

Do you know why there's no Feral tank vids? - cause Feral tank gear is even much more pain to get than pally, while pally is using warrior gear! 

And btw at Maexxna feral looks much more better than pally: you cant dodge/parry/block while stunned. The only thing will help you to survive Maexxna is HP and Armor. In HP-Armor vallues druid goes even better numbers than warrior. But still you need to play it to get enough gear to tank Naxx. Nobody just wants to spend his time for such retarded thing, as you doing with your tankodin.

 

When you're talking about protodin HP/Armor/Avoidance I'm talking about prot warrior.

When you're talking about protodin TPS -  I'm showing you fury warrior TPS. 

Prot warrior is much better than prot pally in surviving. Fury warrior is much better than prot pally in aggroregen.

BTW even block value warrior #1! Pally in that gear: 174 block value(+30% block value talent checked ofc!), Warrior: 252! 

 

So what you're talking about? Pally way is to tank huge packs with Engi Shield+Consecration. For other things you should roll Warrior if you're wanna do your best.

 

P.S. If you wanna me to tank Twins in fury spec - gimme T2.5 at least, Flask of the Titans, Greater Stoneshield and guild with skilled healers first please.

P.S. I can replace Lifegiving Gem with Ony blood talisman, that will raise warrior's avoidance by 2% But still, IMO Lifegiving gem provides more surv.

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just found vids:

Feral tanking Nef and Huhu(w/o titan flask) and Fury tank ~1600 TPS (btw if this guy get more DPS gear instead of tanking, he can ez hit 2k TPS).

 

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2 hours ago, killerduki said:

If you had at least 1% IQ in your brain , then you would gone thru the Topic and read instead talking the exactly same story which was disapproved with facts and evidence.

Have you ever seen Feral Tanking Maexxna and Twins ?

None of the things you talk is actually correct , neither any of the tanks are better or worse , every tank has it's own ups and downs , first give me at least 1 Video or Screenshot with Feral Tanking Maexxna and Twins , then i might believe you, otherwise you talk nonsense with theory based of a garbage.

/Kind regards Killerduki

Cannot agree more with you. Maexxna and Twins are two of the hardest hitting encounters in the game. Im 100% certain a Pally and a Feral will be able to tank them under optimal conditions. The thing is though, in "modern" vanilla raiding you are jumping with full world buffs from one boss to the next (often completely disabling their main mechanics and outdsping the whole encounter due to world buffs). Why would a raidlead bring a prot pally who can only tank some encounters when you can have warriors doing them all? There is not a single bossfight in vanilla wow that cannot be tanked maintanked by a warrior. The whole its interesting because noone is doing it thing gets old pretty fast. Especially if you have to live with comprises.

@DPS: the deep fury/prot spec from your patchwork video works wonders when fighting vael. Almost double the tps of a traditional prot warrior (due to flurry and enrage) on that fight :)

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2 hours ago, DPS said:

just found vids:

Feral tanking Nef and Huhu(w/o titan flask) and Fury tank ~1600 TPS (btw if this guy get more DPS gear instead of tanking, he can ez hit 2k TPS).

 

But in the Video everyone can see the Fury you talk about , is using Tank Gear , not the one you mention previously.

What Fury Tank can do , Retribution Paladin Tank can also do even better,your logic as i said is still Titanic.

Patchwerk is not even hitting hard the Main Tank and he hit fast which is good for any Warrior Rage, but that's it , only 1 boss for threats increasing.

I never said Druid can't tank Neffarian , i said Druid can't tank Twins or Maexxna, they will get raped.

I am still waiting you to give Druid Feral and Fury Warrior tanking Twins and Maexxna , for second time in a row you getaway ignoring this.

1 hour ago, wurzlsepp said:

Cannot agree more with you. Maexxna and Twins are two of the hardest hitting encounters in the game. Im 100% certain a Pally and a Feral will be able to tank them under optimal conditions. The thing is though, in "modern" vanilla raiding you are jumping with full world buffs from one boss to the next (often completely disabling their main mechanics and outdsping the whole encounter due to world buffs). Why would a raidlead bring a prot pally who can only tank some encounters when you can have warriors doing them all? There is not a single bossfight in vanilla wow that cannot be tanked maintanked by a warrior. The whole its interesting because noone is doing it thing gets old pretty fast. Especially if you have to live with comprises.

@DPS: the deep fury/prot spec from your patchwork video works wonders when fighting vael. Almost double the tps of a traditional prot warrior (due to flurry and enrage) on that fight :)

Quote

Cannot agree more with you. Maexxna and Twins are two of the hardest hitting encounters in the game. Im 100% certain a Pally and a Feral will be able to tank them under optimal conditions.

Unless you provide any evidence for Druids regarding these 2 Bosses , i will deny about it.

Paladins can tank them , Druids can't . That's the difference there.

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Why would a raidlead bring a prot pally who can only tank some encounters when you can have warriors doing them all?

Because using 1 Paladin in group will make Raid optimal and easier, with Warriors it will go slow and inferior.

Unlike you using 4 Warriors and slowing down the raid , you will be more efficient and better using 1 Paladin and 3 Warriors or even better 1 Paladin , 1 Druid and 2 Warriors.

Quote

There is not a single bossfight in vanilla wow that cannot be tanked maintanked by a warrior.

Same as every single bossfight in vanilla wow can be maintanked by a paladin either, your logic goes Titanic , once again i already said and will repeat , if you had at least 0000.1% IQ in your brain , you would switch thru the pages and read before you talk nonsense garbage.

/Kind regards Killerduki

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@killerduki

Hello! He's using fury gear!

His gear is pretty similar to my fwarry on that screen:

vqehWU9.jpg

 

Guy in vid is ~ on 2100-2200 AP and his crit chance is ~31-35%(with Songflower buff it can be 40%!)

So, yes, this guy easy can replace few semi-tank items for pure DPS items (he is on 12k HP! He can lower it to 10500-11k with DPS items and still able to tank it)

 

 

Why dru can't tank Maexxna? Untill you'll provide me any proofs that dru can't do this I will  deni your words.

 

Why raidleader should get prot pally in raid? When you have tankadin you will wipe each time healers fail/sleep/afk cause you need Shield Wall/Last Stand/Lifegiving to keep raid in save! With paladin tank whole raid should be 120% focused during full raid duration, cause any healer slack or overaggro will wipe raid or kill some DPSers.

The best raid Setup is 2x Prot warriors and 2x Fury warriors with tanking gear. (you need 100% attendance, cause if 1 of this prot warriors skip raid you'll got problems, thats why most guilds have 3-4 prot warriors and 4-5 fury)

 

 

Why you're talking Warrior tanks will slow raid? Warriors are able to keep aggro at any boss, just have some issues with Thaddius (if your DPSers are overbuffed beasts). If your warrior tank got enough skill and ping brain-fingers is good anyone will overaggro warrior tank. 

 

"I am still waiting you to give Druid Feral and Fury Warrior tanking Twins and Maexxna , for second time in a row you getaway ignoring this."

HELLO! I answered you that there is no such kind vids! Same as there is no any Protpala vids from such bosses except your screenshots! 

Cause any good players are playing protpala/tankodru! Protpala, Tankodru just simply can't get guild who is able to kill this bosses, thats why there's no any kind of thats vids! Everyone is using prot warriors for tanking! 99.9% Vanilla PvE vids are tanked by Prot Warriors.

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4 hours ago, DPS said:

@killerduki

Hello! He's using fury gear!

His gear is pretty similar to my fwarry on that screen:

vqehWU9.jpg

 

Guy in vid is ~ on 2100-2200 AP and his crit chance is ~31-35%(with Songflower buff it can be 40%!)

So, yes, this guy easy can replace few semi-tank items for pure DPS items (he is on 12k HP! He can lower it to 10500-11k with DPS items and still able to tank it)

 

 

Why dru can't tank Maexxna? Untill you'll provide me any proofs that dru can't do this I will  deni your words.

 

Why raidleader should get prot pally in raid? When you have tankadin you will wipe each time healers fail/sleep/afk cause you need Shield Wall/Last Stand/Lifegiving to keep raid in save! With paladin tank whole raid should be 120% focused during full raid duration, cause any healer slack or overaggro will wipe raid or kill some DPSers.

The best raid Setup is 2x Prot warriors and 2x Fury warriors with tanking gear. (you need 100% attendance, cause if 1 of this prot warriors skip raid you'll got problems, thats why most guilds have 3-4 prot warriors and 4-5 fury)

 

 

Why you're talking Warrior tanks will slow raid? Warriors are able to keep aggro at any boss, just have some issues with Thaddius (if your DPSers are overbuffed beasts). If your warrior tank got enough skill and ping brain-fingers is good anyone will overaggro warrior tank. 

 

"I am still waiting you to give Druid Feral and Fury Warrior tanking Twins and Maexxna , for second time in a row you getaway ignoring this."

HELLO! I answered you that there is no such kind vids! Same as there is no any Protpala vids from such bosses except your screenshots! 

Cause any good players are playing protpala/tankodru! Protpala, Tankodru just simply can't get guild who is able to kill this bosses, thats why there's no any kind of thats vids! Everyone is using prot warriors for tanking! 99.9% Vanilla PvE vids are tanked by Prot Warriors.

Quote

Hello! He's using fury gear!

His gear is pretty similar to my fwarry on that screen:

Guy in vid is ~ on 2100-2200 AP and his crit chance is ~31-35%(with Songflower buff it can be 40%!)

So, yes, this guy easy can replace few semi-tank items for pure DPS items (he is on 12k HP! He can lower it to 10500-11k with DPS items and still able to tank it)

Again nonsense , since when assuming is any valid point? As far i can see he was using T3 Tanking Gear as Fury with Thunderfury and that's all , you can compare frogs and cabbages as much you want, Retribution Paladin doing the same will turn Warrior into Dust regarding threats and still do the same job.

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Why dru can't tank Maexxna? Untill you'll provide me any proofs that dru can't do this I will  deni your words.

Well , i already gave you pure example with Paladin Tanking them, sure go ahead and give evidence for your claim , until then you talk nonsense based of thin air and Garbage.

Quote

Why raidleader should get prot pally in raid? When you have tankadin you will wipe each time healers fail/sleep/afk cause you need Shield Wall/Last Stand/Lifegiving to keep raid in save! With paladin tank whole raid should be 120% focused during full raid duration, cause any healer slack or overaggro will wipe raid or kill some DPSers.

Only because you believe in that, doesn't mean is true , with Paladin raid is so much easier since everyone can focus on 1 person mainly and burning their maximum DPS while with Warriors everyone should stress up healing the whole Raid because they can't hold the threats when there are multiple trash mobs.

Skilled Paladin will not loose aggro and if anyone "overaggro" BoP will save the whole Raid,  while Warrior Taunt can Resist and wipe everyone around him due to lack of "Rage" .

Quote

Why you're talking Warrior tanks will slow raid? Warriors are able to keep aggro at any boss, just have some issues with Thaddius (if your DPSers are overbuffed beasts). If your warrior tank got enough skill and ping brain-fingers is good anyone will overaggro warrior tank. 

That's because Warrior will do low amount of threats, always crying for DPS to chill on damage , loose aggro and wipe the Raid , with Paladin threats skyrock and people can feel free maximum dps.

Quote

HELLO! I answered you that there is no such kind vids! Same as there is no any Protpala vids from such bosses except your screenshots! 

Still , i have given you Evidence , you gave nothing , just pure trashtalk with assumptions based of Garbage logic.

Quote

Cause any good players are playing protpala/tankodru! Protpala, Tankodru just simply can't get guild who is able to kill this bosses, thats why there's no any kind of thats vids! Everyone is using prot warriors for tanking! 99.9% Vanilla PvE vids are tanked by Prot Warriors.

None of my business if people don't accept Druid, they don't accept even Paladins so how about it? , i did my way and i got thru all of the Raid and Maintanked the Bosses as Paladin.

If Druids are capable of doing it , then sure i always welcome them to do it , i even accepted Feral Druids to tank and Maintank in our Raids and seen their performance etc, they are not bad , but still you have 0 Evidence where they can and tank Maexxna/Twins.

Regarding Videos, since you tend to always watch Warrior Vids then sure you will have 99.9% of them , but that's because you have decide to turn a blind eye to the Specs who are not in your favor, there are like nearly thousands of Paladin Tank Videos too.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Paladin+Tank+vanilla

See where your logic goes Titanic right now.

/Kind regards Killerduki

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@killerduki

what you're talking about? 

In fury vid you can see T3/T2.5 mix, thats ~same I show you on my SS. That guy is ~900DPS thats impossible in full prot gear even in fury spec. 

Whats your evidence that feral dru can't tank Maexxna? - just nobody frapsed it(or its kinda rare vid) But thats surelly possible according to mathematics and game mechanics. Any class who can get ~10+k HP and ~60+% armor can tank Maexxna.

 

Did you seen skilled tanks? In most times you cant overaggro them! Watch any speedclear video! Overbuffed players are doing max DPS while warrior is tanking and nobody is overaggroing! Again: warrior have threat issues only at Thaddius. Also, you cant tank few mobs even with paladin to allow ppl max DPS(if they are overgeared and overbufffed). Raidleaders are mostly always put 1 tank for SKULL, 1 tank for CROSS+SQUARE, 1 tank for MOON+CIRCLE etc. Mean max DPS is always focused on mob that is the only target of current tank, so there's no any threat issues.

BoP? Its long CD! Taunt is 8sec only! +you have mocking blow, challenging shout (they are low rage req).

 

On that search option in youtube 99% of vids are "prot paly tanking scholo/strat"

 

Also, you should be fair, nobody(except few persons like you) thinks that pala is good tank in vanilla, but all persons accept paladins can tank in TBC+

Why? Thats not because of "pala hate", nobody hates pala except some horde players(cause of PvP). I highly accepts and even love the idea of tanking paladin, but only if there is gear for em! As we can see, in Vanilla paladin tanking gear is too low! BiS pala tank gear looks pretty similar to Wrath geared warrior! 

Lack of saving ability and general low tanking stats from gear makes huge stress for healers in any raid = higher chance of wipe.

 

Again, answer yourself: there's many TBC, WoTLK etc pala tank fans, some of em played vanilla in last 7 years, but nobody of em started "new meta" in vanilla tanking, also I can say more, most of em(you can say same about druid tanks) accepts that warriors is the only viable tanks in Vanilla. Mostly because Warriors got gear available for that, while other classes dont have enough gear available.

 

In your BiS pala tank items more than half is pre-Naxx items, many even pre-AQ40 lvl items. Your helm, chest, bracers, legs is ~hakkar/AQ20 lvl. Your boots is ~wrath lvl. 

And when warrior gearing process is like a line (in each content you have gear for most spots), paladin need to seek for gear from tier lvl to tier lvl.

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what I'm getting from this whole argument is that, while palas fo have cds they have very major drawbacks (mana drain, ping checker and nothing a healer cannot provide), they also are heavily outmatched in the gear department (hakkar head? Lol) and they may deal either comparable or mildly better tps (vs undead only).

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5 hours ago, DPS said:

@killerduki

what you're talking about? 

In fury vid you can see T3/T2.5 mix, thats ~same I show you on my SS. That guy is ~900DPS thats impossible in full prot gear even in fury spec. 

Whats your evidence that feral dru can't tank Maexxna? - just nobody frapsed it(or its kinda rare vid) But thats surelly possible according to mathematics and game mechanics. Any class who can get ~10+k HP and ~60+% armor can tank Maexxna.

 

Did you seen skilled tanks? In most times you cant overaggro them! Watch any speedclear video! Overbuffed players are doing max DPS while warrior is tanking and nobody is overaggroing! Again: warrior have threat issues only at Thaddius. Also, you cant tank few mobs even with paladin to allow ppl max DPS(if they are overgeared and overbufffed). Raidleaders are mostly always put 1 tank for SKULL, 1 tank for CROSS+SQUARE, 1 tank for MOON+CIRCLE etc. Mean max DPS is always focused on mob that is the only target of current tank, so there's no any threat issues.

BoP? Its long CD! Taunt is 8sec only! +you have mocking blow, challenging shout (they are low rage req).

 

On that search option in youtube 99% of vids are "prot paly tanking scholo/strat"

 

Also, you should be fair, nobody(except few persons like you) thinks that pala is good tank in vanilla, but all persons accept paladins can tank in TBC+

Why? Thats not because of "pala hate", nobody hates pala except some horde players(cause of PvP). I highly accepts and even love the idea of tanking paladin, but only if there is gear for em! As we can see, in Vanilla paladin tanking gear is too low! BiS pala tank gear looks pretty similar to Wrath geared warrior! 

Lack of saving ability and general low tanking stats from gear makes huge stress for healers in any raid = higher chance of wipe.

 

Again, answer yourself: there's many TBC, WoTLK etc pala tank fans, some of em played vanilla in last 7 years, but nobody of em started "new meta" in vanilla tanking, also I can say more, most of em(you can say same about druid tanks) accepts that warriors is the only viable tanks in Vanilla. Mostly because Warriors got gear available for that, while other classes dont have enough gear available.

 

In your BiS pala tank items more than half is pre-Naxx items, many even pre-AQ40 lvl items. Your helm, chest, bracers, legs is ~hakkar/AQ20 lvl. Your boots is ~wrath lvl. 

And when warrior gearing process is like a line (in each content you have gear for most spots), paladin need to seek for gear from tier lvl to tier lvl.

Quote

what you're talking about? 

In fury vid you can see T3/T2.5 mix, thats ~same I show you on my SS. That guy is ~900DPS thats impossible in full prot gear even in fury spec.

I see he is using T3 Gear with Thunderfury , the reason why his dps as Fury is bit higher on that Boss is because Patchwerk is Rage friendly Boss where Warriors do get extra Rage , otherwise your assumptions are garbage.

Quote

Whats your evidence that feral dru can't tank Maexxna? - just nobody frapsed it(or its kinda rare vid) But thats surelly possible according to mathematics and game mechanics. Any class who can get ~10+k HP and ~60+% armor can tank Maexxna.

You can't give evidence for your claims and you still tend to push assumptions and propaganda based on garbage.

Eating Crits by Maexxna to Druids is 100% death,especially when Enrage happen and there is Armor cap which makes not a big difference, there your logic goes Titanic.

Quote

Did you seen skilled tanks? In most times you cant overaggro them! Watch any speedclear video! Overbuffed players are doing max DPS while warrior is tanking and nobody is overaggroing!

I've seen Videos only from Nost/Feenix era of Warriors doing the speedkills , during that era their Rage was bugged and they had infinite amount of Rage.

Skilled Paladin does never loose aggro even when Ignite is on target by Mages and the Warrior goes Dust when both of them compete.

Quote

! Overbuffed players are doing max DPS while warrior is tanking and nobody is overaggroing! Again: warrior have threat issues only at Thaddius.

And paladin has 0 issues with threats at Thaddius, you see where your Garbage logic fails?! Ofc you wont admit it.

Quote

Also, you cant tank few mobs even with paladin to allow ppl max DPS(if they are overgeared and overbufffed).

Yes you can tank so easy as Paladin, with Paladin this is the best thing you can do while Warriors can only dream for such thing.

Quote

Raidleaders are mostly always put 1 tank for SKULL, 1 tank for CROSS+SQUARE, 1 tank for MOON+CIRCLE etc. Mean max DPS is always focused on mob that is the only target of current tank, so there's no any threat issues.

Here your logic about using 4 Warrior Tanks in raid goes Titanic .

Quote

BoP? Its long CD! Taunt is 8sec only! +you have mocking blow, challenging shout (they are low rage req).

Mocking Blow has also long CD and it can also miss or resist (doesn't matter which one) , challenging shout will not even make enough threats to Taunt, BoP is instant taunt without any Miss/Resist and it can be done from Range.

Quote

On that search option in youtube 99% of vids are "prot paly tanking scholo/strat"

Same as 99% of the vids in youtube are "Warrior Tank pvp and guides only .

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=warrior+prot+vanilla

Quote

Also, you should be fair, nobody(except few persons like you) thinks that pala is good tank in vanilla, but all persons accept paladins can tank in TBC+

That's because i have done what you "as Preacher" deny and "preach" to others what they should play or not , same as tons amount of other preachers doing the same with Logic like your based off a Garbage and thin air facts without evidence. This mentality came long ago from Feenix, where things was disaster scripted and they never bothered doing any fix to Paladins.

Today it is only preaching all around by kids, who watch other preachers and read private servers forums only with their private servers bugs.

Quote

Why? Thats not because of "pala hate", nobody hates pala except some horde players(cause of PvP). I highly accepts and even love the idea of tanking paladin, but only if there is gear for em! As we can see, in Vanilla paladin tanking gear is too low! BiS pala tank gear looks pretty similar to Wrath geared warrior! 

Even yourself has posted where Paladins can have Tank Gear and it's difference with surviving compare to Warriors is 2% according to your Addon shown.

Here is where your logic fails off like a garbage and you turn blind eye on it tend to ignore that part.

Quote

Lack of saving ability and general low tanking stats from gear makes huge stress for healers in any raid = higher chance of wipe.

2% difference between Warrior and Paladin in regards to Tanking stats + higher Block Value compare to Warrior is not low tanking stats , only because Warrior have more Stamina , doesn't mean it is making him stronger compare to more Block Value by the Paladin. (But i forgot , your logic was 60 block value = 6 stamina).

As it was discussed already 10 times in row, Paladins does not lack of saving ability , they have Bubble as compensation of Shield Wall to remove deadly debuffs and they have LoH as compensation of Last Stand which will make him also Armor Cap if talented, they have Sapphiron Trinket which is 30% more efficient compare to Warriors as compensation of Lifegiving Gem, (here is where your 60 damage=6 stamina goes titanic) which Lifegiving Gem is limited HP while Sapphiron Trinket is lot damage compare to the HP you gain from Gem.

Quote

Again, answer yourself: there's many TBC, WoTLK etc pala tank fans, some of em played vanilla in last 7 years, but nobody of em started "new meta" in vanilla tanking, also I can say more, most of em(you can say same about druid tanks) accepts that warriors is the only viable tanks in Vanilla. Mostly because Warriors got gear available for that, while other classes dont have enough gear available.

Only because few so called "Hardcore Raiding Guilds" doesn't accept Paladin Tanks in their Guilds and Raids, doesn't mean there are no Paladin Tanks at all , in fact there are plenty and lot of them was working hard to contribute in bugtracker to have their Abilities fixed. There was more than 100 Votes for Paladin Tank fixes in the old bugtracker by Paladin Tanks community, here is where your ignorance gets destroyed.

If there are 100 Paladin Tanks in game voting for bug fixes ,then there are even more who are not even exposed in the scene around.

Your logic is based off a garbage again.
 

Quote

 

In your BiS pala tank items more than half is pre-Naxx items, many even pre-AQ40 lvl items. Your helm, chest, bracers, legs is ~hakkar/AQ20 lvl. Your boots is ~wrath lvl. 

And when warrior gearing process is like a line (in each content you have gear for most spots), paladin need to seek for gear from tier lvl to tier lvl.

 

Only because majority Gear is pre Naxx aka AQ40 , doesn't mean is weak , Warriors are also using AQ40 and BWL Gear either.

The reason you are getting confused here is because Warriors will go for Tier Gear compare to Paladins who will go for Offset Gear.

Your logic about  paladin need to seek for gear from tier lvl to tier lvl is based off garbage again , you will anyway go thru all these tiers regardless if you are Warrior or Paladin , even Warrior need to seek for gear from tier lvl to tier lvl in order to become efficient and Tank.

Quote

what I'm getting from this whole argument is that, while palas fo have cds they have very major drawbacks (mana drain, ping checker and nothing a healer cannot provide), they also are heavily outmatched in the gear department (hakkar head? Lol) and they may deal either comparable or mildly better tps (vs undead only).

Only because you tend to read his comments ignoring these i posted , what kind of mana drain as a drawbacks you point out? Warriors do have bigger drawback than Paladin by far and is called Rage starving.

Regarding tps even with Human Paladin will turn the Warrior into dust.

/Kind regards Killerduki

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fyi

60blockvalue is 6stam, in terms of effective health. he posted that a while back. no fucking healer ever cares if you take 60less dmg per bossauto, you get overhealed like shit anyway. its about the instant kill combos, thats what matters.

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What rage starvation? It only affects warriors who don't know how to gear properly for a boss fight. Every half decent prot warrior will have proper tps, resi and tier/def gear.

That being said, a prot pally literally brings nothing to the table that a heal pally can't bring. I see only drawbacks: immobile, no fear protection, no useful cds, mana drain, no guaranteed cb immunity, no taunts, sub par gear progression, no interrupts, dps relevant debuffs have to applied by other tanks/warriors, simulated tps is lower than proper warrior tps builds, silence affinity, lower healthpools, no disarms... I know that some weird spellpower/proc specs can work wonders, so far all of them have been fixed though :D

All I am saying is, a prot pally will be able to tank certain encounters, but never be a maintank. MIght as well give that prot pally a "night fall" to do something useful the rest of the time.

 

 

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@killerduki

Well to be fair, anyone except warrior can tank maexxna because of shield wall (if you're not using any kind of abuse). So your paladin will die w/o shield wall on Maexxna enrage even with crush/crit immunity. Its impossible to survive w/o shield wall or like 18+k HP! 

 

You should check Elysium speedkills ;-) And yeah, rage mechanics isn't changed at all, cause it was blizzlike for ages!

 

I never said, there is 2% dif in surv between pala and warrior. I told you that warrior is 2.9% higher on damage red, and ~30% higher on surv(cause of more HP and 2.9% more damage red).

 

Also I noticed that you never played warrior, cause you dont know timers and mechanics taunt-mockingblow-challshout! mocking blow/challshout allows you to wait taunt CD and re-try to use it w/o loosing control on mob! In ~99% times you got resist its enough to mocking blow+taunt to get mob back. For last 1% times(mocking blow dodge/2x taunt resists) you have chall shout). 2min CD for mocking blow allows you to use it almost each time you got taunt resist.

 

I never stated that ZG gear is "weak", but its worse than higher lvl items. 

 

 

Do you know why sword Rogues owns fury in pre-BWL content, but Fury owns sword rogues from BWL up to KT? 

Before in pre-BWL content sword-Rogues got T1, 2x T2 parts, they got Viskag and Brutality blade, and most dmg items are agi based(ony neck, baron cloak, satyr bow etc), so rogues got more profit from it.

What happens in BWL? Warriors got chromatic boots, DFT(better scaled for fury), CTS, Maladath, Krul, Shoulders, Legs, Chest etcc(In general, all that gear is not used or poorly scaled for rogues). AQ40 slighly buffs rogues(to be fair, mostly in PvP cause of deathdealer setbonus), but still not enough.

In Naxx rogues gets very powerful stats and bonuses at T3, but they lack swords... Rogues are forced to use ~R14/CTS/AQR (all of em are worse than Nefarian's lvl items). While warriors are started to use Naxx weapons! 

Give rogues 65.4 DPS (2.6 or 2.8 speed) 1H Sword and they will rock!!!

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15 минут назад, wurzlsepp сказал:

What rage starvation? It only affects warriors who don't know how to gear properly for a boss fight. Every half decent prot warrior will have proper tps, resi and tier/def gear.

That being said, a prot pally literally brings nothing to the table that a heal pally can't bring. I see only drawbacks: immobile, no fear protection, no useful cds, mana drain, no guaranteed cb immunity, no taunts, sub par gear progression, no interrupts, dps relevant debuffs have to applied by other tanks/warriors, simulated tps is lower than proper warrior tps builds, silence affinity, lower healthpools, no disarms... I know that some weird spellpower/proc specs can work wonders, so far all of them have been fixed though :D

All I am saying is, a prot pally will be able to tank certain encounters, but never be a maintank. MIght as well give that prot pally a "night fall" to do something useful the rest of the time.

 

 

melee hunters are better for Nightfall spam (Wing Clip). So paladins are useless even for Nightfall.

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2 hours ago, flowqz said:

fyi

60blockvalue is 6stam, in terms of effective health. he posted that a while back. no fucking healer ever cares if you take 60less dmg per bossauto, you get overhealed like shit anyway. its about the instant kill combos, thats what matters.

Same Titanic logic again , funny to read Imo , 60 Block Value = 6 Stamina , 60 Damage Reduction for the whole duration of fight will probably reduce 10k Damage, which is equal to 1k Stamina.

Yes sure , no fucking healer ever cares if you take 60 less damage (per swing) compare to 6 stamina for overall fight lmao.

Ridiculous .

1 hour ago, wurzlsepp said:

What rage starvation? It only affects warriors who don't know how to gear properly for a boss fight. Every half decent prot warrior will have proper tps, resi and tier/def gear.

That being said, a prot pally literally brings nothing to the table that a heal pally can't bring. I see only drawbacks: immobile, no fear protection, no useful cds, mana drain, no guaranteed cb immunity, no taunts, sub par gear progression, no interrupts, dps relevant debuffs have to applied by other tanks/warriors, simulated tps is lower than proper warrior tps builds, silence affinity, lower healthpools, no disarms... I know that some weird spellpower/proc specs can work wonders, so far all of them have been fixed though :D

All I am saying is, a prot pally will be able to tank certain encounters, but never be a maintank. MIght as well give that prot pally a "night fall" to do something useful the rest of the time.

 

 

Quote

What rage starvation? It only affects warriors who don't know how to gear properly for a boss fight. Every half decent prot warrior will have proper tps, resi and tier/def gear.

You definitely either play another project , not playing Warrior tank or simple trolling .

If you had half brain you will see how much problems they have with Rage when they get gear.

Quote

That being said, a prot pally literally brings nothing to the table that a heal pally can't bring.

You compare frogs with cabbages again living in ignorance , what Heal Pally? Can they Tank ? Nope, they can't Tank efficiently and survive in Raids with Raid Bosses and strong Mobs.

That being said , your logic is Titanic "Warrior Tank brings nothing to the table that Arms can't bring" .

Quote

I see only drawbacks: immobile, no fear protection, no useful cds, mana drain, no guaranteed cb immunity, no taunts, sub par gear progression, no interrupts, dps relevant debuffs have to applied by other tanks/warriors, simulated tps is lower than proper warrior tps builds, silence affinity, lower healthpools, no disarms... I know that some weird spellpower/proc specs can work wonders, so far all of them have been fixed though :D

They can kite without problems , they can get fear protection by priests FW (even tho following proper Boss mechanic wont matter at all , doable without FW),LoH and Bubble as useful cd's , mana is never problem as you regen much more than you spent while warriors rage starve , there is 100% guarantee immunity including on deadly debuffs who can be death for warriors , BoP as Taunt replacement and 95% of Bosses are doable without Taunt "only 4hm require it" , there is no sub par Gear progression as they use every single offset Gear from all Raids , you have Rogues to interrupts unless your Raid is noob enough , JoW is the most relevant and best debuff not only for the Paladin Tank itself , but also for Healers and Range DPS as most efficient (unlike deep wounds) , TPS is 2 times higher than the best TPS warrior build and this is proven with fact , your warrior will turn into dust by Paladin with TPS , what silence affinity? Seal of Righteousness last 30 seconds and is unaffected by Silence , lower healtpools but better Block Value as it's 100 times better than "60 damage per swing = 6 stamina logic you bring lmao".

Quote

All I am saying is, a prot pally will be able to tank certain encounters, but never be a maintank. MIght as well give that prot pally a "night fall" to do something useful the rest of the time.

Paladin can Maintank every single bossfight that exist in game, only exception to that is 4hm but not limited to as they can manage tanking 1 of the horses still with warrior/druid rotation , i'd rather give night fall to Warrior as they can't do any shit dps as Prot , Warrior Tanks offtanking are useless and they should always wield Nightfalls .

51 minutes ago, DPS said:

@killerduki

Well to be fair, anyone except warrior can tank maexxna because of shield wall (if you're not using any kind of abuse). So your paladin will die w/o shield wall on Maexxna enrage even with crush/crit immunity. Its impossible to survive w/o shield wall or like 18+k HP! 

 

You should check Elysium speedkills ;-) And yeah, rage mechanics isn't changed at all, cause it was blizzlike for ages!

 

I never said, there is 2% dif in surv between pala and warrior. I told you that warrior is 2.9% higher on damage red, and ~30% higher on surv(cause of more HP and 2.9% more damage red).

 

Also I noticed that you never played warrior, cause you dont know timers and mechanics taunt-mockingblow-challshout! mocking blow/challshout allows you to wait taunt CD and re-try to use it w/o loosing control on mob! In ~99% times you got resist its enough to mocking blow+taunt to get mob back. For last 1% times(mocking blow dodge/2x taunt resists) you have chall shout). 2min CD for mocking blow allows you to use it almost each time you got taunt resist.

 

I never stated that ZG gear is "weak", but its worse than higher lvl items. 

 

 

Do you know why sword Rogues owns fury in pre-BWL content, but Fury owns sword rogues from BWL up to KT? 

Before in pre-BWL content sword-Rogues got T1, 2x T2 parts, they got Viskag and Brutality blade, and most dmg items are agi based(ony neck, baron cloak, satyr bow etc), so rogues got more profit from it.

What happens in BWL? Warriors got chromatic boots, DFT(better scaled for fury), CTS, Maladath, Krul, Shoulders, Legs, Chest etcc(In general, all that gear is not used or poorly scaled for rogues). AQ40 slighly buffs rogues(to be fair, mostly in PvP cause of deathdealer setbonus), but still not enough.

In Naxx rogues gets very powerful stats and bonuses at T3, but they lack swords... Rogues are forced to use ~R14/CTS/AQR (all of em are worse than Nefarian's lvl items). While warriors are started to use Naxx weapons! 

Give rogues 65.4 DPS (2.6 or 2.8 speed) 1H Sword and they will rock!!!

Quote

Well to be fair, anyone except warrior can tank maexxna because of shield wall (if you're not using any kind of abuse). So your paladin will die w/o shield wall on Maexxna enrage even with crush/crit immunity. Its impossible to survive w/o shield wall or like 18+k HP! 

You just witnessed Paladin Maintanking Maexxna , so your logic is turned into Dust as always , you look ridiculous right now since you already said 2 times Druid can tank it.

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You should check Elysium speedkills ;-) And yeah, rage mechanics isn't changed at all, cause it was blizzlike for ages!

The Rage mechanic is indeed changed in Elysium from what Nostalrius used to be and from what Elysium early days (after merge) used to be.

Since then , you wont see any bragging "Speedkills" like they used to do in the past, Sure you will find some ,but nowhere near close to how it was before.

As with Skilled Protection Paladin this could be twice faster.

Quote

I never said, there is 2% dif in surv between pala and warrior. I told you that warrior is 2.9% higher on damage red, and ~30% higher on surv(cause of more HP and 2.9% more damage red).

You never said , but your addon in the Screenshots you provided said exactly that ,2% difference in surviving between them both , if you had 1% IQ then you would look at the screenshots addon again and will realize that (unless you by purpose tend to ignore your own screenshot like you already did twice by switching fury/prot all the time within discussion).

The HP is not that much higher as you used Supreme Flask and as you deny and i repeat for 100 Times , the lack of Stamina for Paladin is compensated to 30% more Block Value which is highly more efficient than "your 60 block value = 6 stamina" titanic logic.

Quote

Also I noticed that you never played warrior, cause you dont know timers and mechanics taunt-mockingblow-challshout! mocking blow/challshout allows you to wait taunt CD and re-try to use it w/o loosing control on mob! In ~99% times you got resist its enough to mocking blow+taunt to get mob back. For last 1% times(mocking blow dodge/2x taunt resists) you have chall shout). 2min CD for mocking blow allows you to use it almost each time you got taunt resist.

Taunt is working based off Spell Resistance and since you wont sacrifice your Avoidance/Melee HiT for Spell HiT , it will most likely resist more than 70% of the time. Your 2 Min CD mocking bow will equal to Raid wipe if it Dodge or whatever .

BoP will not resist and will save the Raid and unlike Warriors ,Paladins are very strong TPS with Autoattacks (SoR) and wont cry for "Rage" in order to get the threats back.

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I never stated that ZG gear is "weak", but its worse than higher lvl items. 

We have already seen in your Gear list comparisons , it ended up 2% surviving difference with more Stamina for Warrior but more Block Value for Paladin which is imo more efficient for Paladin the extra Block Value, your logic goes Titanic .

Quote

Do you know why sword Rogues owns fury in pre-BWL content, but Fury owns sword rogues from BWL up to KT? 

Before in pre-BWL content sword-Rogues got T1, 2x T2 parts, they got Viskag and Brutality blade, and most dmg items are agi based(ony neck, baron cloak, satyr bow etc), so rogues got more profit from it.

What happens in BWL? Warriors got chromatic boots, DFT(better scaled for fury), CTS, Maladath, Krul, Shoulders, Legs, Chest etcc(In general, all that gear is not used or poorly scaled for rogues). AQ40 slighly buffs rogues(to be fair, mostly in PvP cause of deathdealer setbonus), but still not enough.

In Naxx rogues gets very powerful stats and bonuses at T3, but they lack swords... Rogues are forced to use ~R14/CTS/AQR (all of em are worse than Nefarian's lvl items). While warriors are started to use Naxx weapons! 

Give rogues 65.4 DPS (2.6 or 2.8 speed) 1H Sword and they will rock!!!

What this matter with Paladin Tanking at all? You again try to compare frogs with cabbages as always, this discussion is not Rogues vs Warriors DPS.

49 minutes ago, DPS said:

melee hunters are better for Nightfall spam (Wing Clip). So paladins are useless even for Nightfall.

Warrior Tanks are best for Nightfall , because they are useless as Offtanks and can't do any good dps , they should do it instead while Paladin is Maintanking.

2 hours ago, Nirinia said:

The mana drain I'm referring to is LoH. Also rage starvation is nowhere near as bad as being oom

 

JoW and SoR will refund that mana drain in 2 swings.

/Kind regards Killerduki

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