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Nirinia

Give a pala a taunt...

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13 minutes ago, killerduki said:

Same Titanic logic again , funny to read Imo , 60 Block Value = 6 Stamina , 60 Damage Reduction for the whole duration of fight will probably reduce 10k Damage, which is equal to 1k Stamina.

 

its about effective health during burst. and yes, no healer cares about your 10k more absorbed while they overheal for more than 10 times that amount each in a longer fight. healers only care about huge burst like shadowflames from bwl drakes or blastwave ms combo from broordlord.

blockamount only matters if multiple mobs are on you, else no sane healer gives a shit if you got that amount in stamina.

fyi your logic is titanic

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@killerduki

M8, are you retarded or just blind?

THERE"S NO ANY INFO AT MY SS ABOUT 2% SURV DIF!!!

5FJAlCw.jpg

 

You definitely playing on another one server for sure, you're playing on server where warriors are out of rage all the time, they are loosing agrro, diying on trash? While paladins are AoE tanking post-Vael dragon packs in WoTLK style! And all raid members are simply AoEing it in 15-20secs? Correct?

Sad, that everyone here, except you dont have access to such realm, maybe we're just not enough skilled for you? Since one mistake or 1 lag will wipe whole raid, when you're tanking huge packs.

 

And currently I'm think that your Maexxna screenshots are fake or used with bug abuse(did you get non-hot healing during Web Spray?) Since, anyone can't survive Maexxna enrage stun w/o direct healing or Shield Wall up.

 

 

Paladin's block value is still lower than warrior!!!! 30% extra for paladin still not enough to compensate warrior's gear. And yeah, again, stamina>block value! Cause nobody gives  a fuck about how much you're blocking on boss - but even 1 stamina can save your(and whole raidgroup) ass at many bosses.

 

Did you ever played healer? Do you know how hard to heal low HP tanks? And how easy is to heal high HP tank, even if they are not-crit immune, and lack avoidance? The more time tank can live w/o healing - the better tank is! And you're surelly after each death claims that your healers are slackers? XD

 

 

If my logic is titanic, you dont have logic at all... Are you talking while sleeping? "zzzzz... paladin is best tank!! ....zzzzzzz.... warriors overrated!....zzzzzz rage starving.... JoW...zzzzzz"

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@killerduki you surely have passion for paladins and its good.

Make some guides, just show ppl how its effective to play palatank.

Right now, you seem like someone who play on forums but fear the reality.

If palatank is so good,why ppl are so stupid to not playing it?

The titanic is a boat who was known to be solid...

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1 hour ago, flowqz said:

its about effective health during burst. and yes, no healer cares about your 10k more absorbed while they overheal for more than 10 times that amount each in a longer fight. healers only care about huge burst like shadowflames from bwl drakes or blastwave ms combo from broordlord.

blockamount only matters if multiple mobs are on you, else no sane healer gives a shit if you got that amount in stamina.

fyi your logic is titanic

What logic are you talking about , 60 HP will make difference during burst? Do you even have little brain to read yourself what are you talking....

What Shadow Flames? These who can be Resisted ? MS Combo from Broodlord that can be survive thru Priest Bubble + Greater Stoneshield Pot? 

What 60 HP (80 fully buffed) extra will do compare to 60 Damage per swing reduced in a Boss that is going to hit you over 5k ?!?! .

The Drakes you talk about , Broodlord are also melee swinging you , the 60 Damage reduction per swing will do far more than your 6 Stamina.

1 hour ago, DPS said:

@killerduki

M8, are you retarded or just blind?

THERE"S NO ANY INFO AT MY SS ABOUT 2% SURV DIF!!!

5FJAlCw.jpg

 

You definitely playing on another one server for sure, you're playing on server where warriors are out of rage all the time, they are loosing agrro, diying on trash? While paladins are AoE tanking post-Vael dragon packs in WoTLK style! And all raid members are simply AoEing it in 15-20secs? Correct?

Sad, that everyone here, except you dont have access to such realm, maybe we're just not enough skilled for you? Since one mistake or 1 lag will wipe whole raid, when you're tanking huge packs.

 

And currently I'm think that your Maexxna screenshots are fake or used with bug abuse(did you get non-hot healing during Web Spray?) Since, anyone can't survive Maexxna enrage stun w/o direct healing or Shield Wall up.

 

 

Paladin's block value is still lower than warrior!!!! 30% extra for paladin still not enough to compensate warrior's gear. And yeah, again, stamina>block value! Cause nobody gives  a fuck about how much you're blocking on boss - but even 1 stamina can save your(and whole raidgroup) ass at many bosses.

 

Did you ever played healer? Do you know how hard to heal low HP tanks? And how easy is to heal high HP tank, even if they are not-crit immune, and lack avoidance? The more time tank can live w/o healing - the better tank is! And you're surelly after each death claims that your healers are slackers? XD

 

 

If my logic is titanic, you dont have logic at all... Are you talking while sleeping? "zzzzz... paladin is best tank!! ....zzzzzzz.... warriors overrated!....zzzzzz rage starving.... JoW...zzzzzz"

Quote

 

M8, are you retarded or just blind?

THERE"S NO ANY INFO AT MY SS ABOUT 2% SURV DIF!!!

 

You definitely need someone to wash your brain , to free you from Insults when disapproved.

I aint give a shit about your Tankpoints when you didn't even used Flask of the Titans and instead used Flask of the Supreme Power when you made comparison between Prot Warr and Prot Paladin (and then you get away by talking about Fury Warrior) .

Your Screenshot purely shown 2% Difference on Damage Reduction and it did not include the Block Value where Paladin will crush the shit out of your Warrior in regards to surviving and your "60 damage per swing = 6 stamina" Logic.

Quote

You definitely playing on another one server for sure, you're playing on server where warriors are out of rage all the time, they are loosing agrro, diying on trash? While paladins are AoE tanking post-Vael dragon packs in WoTLK style! And all raid members are simply AoEing it in 15-20secs? Correct?

What server did i played?! I am talking Elysium in the current state which is using Blizzlike Values compare to any other Servers you compare to (like old nost/kronos/feenix).

You are the one speaking Warriors HS 90% uptime and infinite Rage Titanic logic.

In Elysium Warriors always have problems with Rage , especially when people burn the shit out on Boss.

Quote

And currently I'm think that your Maexxna screenshots are fake or used with bug abuse(did you get non-hot healing during Web Spray?) Since, anyone can't survive Maexxna enrage stun w/o direct healing or Shield Wall up.

Like your Druids can tank Maexxna logic without any screenshot or video given?!

Yes i was getting Abolish Poisons by Druids during Web Sprays , filled with Hots like Renew/Reju/Regrowth during Web , using Greater Stoneshield Pots to survive it easy like cake etc , Bubble to avoid the last Web during Enrage as you have also seen this Tactic is coming from Vanilla era where Rogues use Vanish and Mages Iceblocks etc during Enrage to avoid Web Sprays , or you want me to repeat you the same link i posted you already as evidence for that? Because i know you tend to ignore and deny everything against your believes.

Quote

Paladin's block value is still lower than warrior!!!! 30% extra for paladin still not enough to compensate warrior's gear. And yeah, again, stamina>block value! Cause nobody gives  a fuck about how much you're blocking on boss - but even 1 stamina can save your(and whole raidgroup) ass at many bosses.

How can Paladin Block Value be lower than Warrior when it gets 30% extra!? Do you even read your self sounding like Titanic?

6 Stamina > 60 Block Value?!!?!?! Do you even read yourself ....

1 Stamina can save my ass compare to 10k Damage reduced during the whole raid ?!?!?!?!?!?!

Gosh , how in the world God created Kids without brain , it's unimaginable and hilarious to even read their comments.

Quote

Did you ever played healer? Do you know how hard to heal low HP tanks? And how easy is to heal high HP tank, even if they are not-crit immune, and lack avoidance? The more time tank can live w/o healing - the better tank is! And you're surelly after each death claims that your healers are slackers? XD

By being Paladin Healer , get max crit , max ranks spam and overheal while drinking coffee,  yes its too hard to keep someone more than 80% .....

What not crit immune are you talking about and avoidance ... You are Genious , wow , Paladin in Blue pre raid Items can even get Crit Immune and have Avoidance...

Yes 2% Surviving difference between Warr/Paladin (excluding the Block Value where Paladin get 30% extra compare to Warr) is hard to heal ....

Quote

If my logic is titanic, you dont have logic at all... Are you talking while sleeping? "zzzzz... paladin is best tank!! ....zzzzzzz.... warriors overrated!....zzzzzz rage starving.... JoW...zzzzzz"

I am sorry for calling your logic Titanic , i was wrong , your logic is Garbage and you have the Charisma of a DAMP RAG and appearance of a low grade gangster aka troll.

The Question i wanna ask is , do you even have any clue about this Game at all ? What do you know outside of preachers in Videos at Youtube and Forums? I think you don't and you never being good or skilled player at all. Your intention is to derail Topics , spread hate against anyone who don't play your favor specs , deny and troll anyone who prove the opposite of you. You Sir have no legitimacy what you talk , you have no clue about Paladins , you derail Paladin threats with hate and the sooner you quit doing it , the better.

32 minutes ago, Rafale said:

@killerduki you surely have passion for paladins and its good.

Make some guides, just show ppl how its effective to play palatank.

Right now, you seem like someone who play on forums but fear the reality.

If palatank is so good,why ppl are so stupid to not playing it?

The titanic is a boat who was known to be solid...

It cost you 10 minutes to search around this forum and see all my Guides about it and everything about it.

You really think people don't play Paladin Tank?!?! Only because Hardcore Guilds brainwashed by Preachers and Bugs within Private servers , don't accept Pala Tanks , doesn't mean there are no Pala Tanks and doesn't mean that people don't play it at all.

Your boat is Titanic in this case, unless you tend to open up another logic like DPS "60 damage per swing reduced = 6 stamina" .

/Kind regards Killerduki

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so @killerduki, I'll ask again, when did you last tank Ebonroc? About the block value, sure palas have more in identical gear but doesn't t3 have more?

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I just want to address some points: 

Stamina is generally prefered to block value because 10 block value is less valuable than 1 stamina. While you do want the maximum mitigation, stamina gives the large health pool that allows you to survive burst damage. Generally block value will not save you, but stamina will. Imagine it in the extremes, stack block value and have no stamina or no block value and all stamina. 60 damage reduction on blocks will not make a massive difference as the healers can compensate, but there's no way a healer can increase your max hp out of the burst damage. Also think about when you are stunned ect, that's when stamina shoots up in value.

 

BoP is a useful tool. It can be used on taunt immune bosses to control them and will be useful but consider the two points: 

It is not garanteed to return to the paladin. Imagine as a tank you have 100 threat. Warlock 1 pulls aggro with 130 threat, and the boss moves to them so you BoP them. However warlock 2 has 115 threat - the boss is now going to them and you can not prevent it.

Imagine a warrior in this situation, with a paladin healer. The warrior loses agro, boss moves. The paladin healer uses BoP instead. The warrior can then also taunt to save warlock 2.

 

Other live saving measures such as LoH are not exclusive to a paladin tank and can be provided by the healers. The only exclusive ability you have is bubble - which i agree is very strong. However it is not as good as shield wall, gem and last stand.

 

I'm confused a bit about this argument with block percentage as normally a warrior would be using shield block to boost their block which is one of the core reasons they are so strong.

 

Rag specifically has issues because he targets mana users with fireball and knockback, so you will not have consistent kickbacks. Yes you can resist it but that also means you're stacking fire res above what is really necessary and this will limit your tps output. 2 warriors (which  you would have anyway) will just soak the timed knockback and swap then taunt. Rag is very easy but this is still relevant.

 

Paladins do have benefits in using mana - but normally warriors will not struggle with rage. You adjust gear to the encounter so you will be able to have enough rage, hit ect.

 

I'm not saying paladins can't tank but i believe you should take these things into account. The biggest issue i see with paladin tanks(or even retri) is what do they bring that they would not do as a healer. I see paladins can tank, and generate a lot of tps, but is it any better than a warrior - expecially considering how many tools a warrior has at their disposal to control the fight and save themselves.

Edited by Silverlan
Added segment on Rag tanking

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I think @killerduki need his own server. He can't accept that no one want to test his beloved spec. I want him to reroll moonkin, it will be fun with arguments like "you know how much armor moonkin has? they can aoe FARM much better than a frost mage".

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@killerduki

Paladin block value is LOWER than warrior's block value(cause of items with block value)

Shadow flame and other spells need really high resist gear to resist all the time(and even with 315 resist it still can hit with 100% power)

Broodlord combo still can kill even warriors with Titans, power word shield, greater stoneshield. Cause MS(20k)+Blast wave(3k)+Knockback(4k)+white hit(4k) - is more than 30k damage(before mitigation). That mean, you will get ~12-13k dmg combo with armor cap if you highly unlucky with boss combos. Few times I seen T3 tanks with Titans and greater stoneshield dies here because of ccccombo.

 

Open your eyes! Everyone here talking you that warriors are abble to have have infinite rage if needed for boss fight(high TPS req fights) - tanks just replacing pure tank items with DPS items that is semi-tanking(lionheart, chromatic boots, dps rings, DFT(rarely, but sometimes tanks from overgeared guilds have this), onslaught girdle, majordomo bracers, R12-13 gear, T2.5 etc depends on patch you're playing. for FULL tanking rotation tank needs only ~10rage per second regeneration. You need to take 30dmg to generate 1 rage, mean to get 10rage per second, you need to take 300dmg/sec! With most boss attack speed 2.0, boss need to cause 600 dmg to you per hit to provide you enough rage! Most bosses are 3-4-5 times more, so you got enough rage even with 2 dodges/misses in a row! So rage isn't issue!

 

 

 

P.S. Please, start reading "P.S." post after you read the text before it.

Well, I'm playing from 2006. Before starting the game is read tons of guides about classes etc(I wanted to play this game before I bought computer, so I was reading from my phone and 2G internet connection, using Opera Mini.jar application), so I choose my first character class even before I seen game (I choose rogue). Like in ~9-10 months I decided to try warrior, but it was my alt, my fav character still was rogue. I was mostly casual PvP player back to that days. During TBC I was intersting in theorycrafting, I was reading elitistjerks dayly, made my own calculations.

After WotLK release I stopped playing after 2months playing on that shit. I claimed for self that WoW is already dead. In like ~1 year I noticed that there started few Wotlk/TBC based "vanilla" servers. So I started to play on em, PvE was poor, but PvP was pretty decent, so I was PvP player that days. So I was jumping between that servers(they were with low livetime, and was open for ~1-2-3 months) untill there was Feenix release. I noticed that PvE at Feenix was really much more close to blizzlike values that any pirate server I seen before, so I decided to start PvE guild. Cause of Feenix content had very high buffed HP/dmg/armor values, most bosses tactics should be updated, since you can't kill that bosses with blizzlike tactics. So I recruted few prot paladins/feral druids for AoE tanking(aoe mobs had too much HP to kill it with ChallShout+AoE, and was hitting to hard to warlock-hellfire tank it, Force reactive disc proc wasn't working back to that days =(  ), also Gluth pala tanking was first used in my guild, other guilds uses mages for this(but you want to focus more top DPSers on Gluth, cause of his INSANE health on Feenix to abble to kill him before Enrage), same goes for BWL Supression room, AQ40 bug tunnel, Ouro scarabs(they had aggro at Feenix, so we used prot paladins to tank em), also we used feral druind to soak PW Hateful strike after it was buffed(any warrior could survive it that times, sometimes it was hitting for 11-12k), that "update" was rollbacked in 2 weeks cause any guild except mine killed him during this 2 weeks.

In general, I was highly hardcore PvE player back to that time (2010-2013), I created few complete DPS spreadsheets (Fury, Rogue, WL and Mage), and countless "light spreadsheets" eg compared rest dru to priest HPS, Hellfire to AoE pally compare, prot warrior TPS calculator, HP needed to survive calculator etc.

So, yeah, I know almost everything about theorycrafting and gamemechanics in Vanilla WoW.

 

 

There is no any hated class/spec by me, I love unusual things (fury tank, Shadow Priest tank, ret DPS, hunter DPS, rogue avoidance tanking, shokadin PvP, fury PvP, druid PvP etc) I really loves this thinks cause its can "refresh" your game feelings, its something you seeing rarely. But sadly, all of this things req pretty rare loot and most of em isn't so much palanced as "normal" specs. I highly wants some kind of update for gear and talents with 1.12.1 client, to allow save using of new builds in raids.

But currently, all possible things are already tested, and according to evolution theory, the most balanced specs, item sets, playstyle are already known and used by most players.

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And again, I wasn't talked you about "DAMAGE REDUCTION" I was talked about "SURVIVABILITY". Thats 2 did things!

 

Example:

tank 1-  50% damage reduction and 10k HP

tank 2 - 30% damage reduction and 40k HP

What tank is better? -Tank 2 is better! Yeah, he tooks more damage, but its most likely will stay alive cause boss need much more time to kill him, and your healers are still can heal this dmg, cause their overheal is much lower now! 

So, tank 2 will take LESS raw heal, More effective healing and less overhealing! And tank 2 is alive!

so, if warrior's "DAMAGE REDUCTION" is 2.9% more, "SURVIVABILITY" surelly will be much more than +2.9% cause of highest HP values.

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P.S. I didn't used flask of titans for that screen cause you told me that you're using Flask of Supreme power! 

If you forgot, I added screenshots with Flask of the Titans up, but still thats didn't change anything for your poor BiS geared paladin

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15 hours ago, killerduki said:

What logic are you talking about , 60 HP will make difference during burst? Do you even have little brain to read yourself what are you talking....

What Shadow Flames? These who can be Resisted ? MS Combo from Broodlord that can be survive thru Priest Bubble + Greater Stoneshield Pot? 

What 60 HP (80 fully buffed) extra will do compare to 60 Damage per swing reduced in a Boss that is going to hit you over 5k ?!?! .

The Drakes you talk about , Broodlord are also melee swinging you , the 60 Damage reduction per swing will do far more than your 6 Stamina.

 

i just told you, that noone cares about your little blockvalue, because only bursts kill you, unless you have multiple mobs on you (e.g. garr adds).

in a fight with 1 boss and no adds on you its irrelevant if you got that in block or stamina, it doesnt matter at all, so yes its about 6stam for your 60block.

fyi a tank of ours once got killed in a timeframe of 0.3sec, i wanna see you using a priestshield in that timeframe, fyi a good argument for your paladin tank would have been "lul i can bubble right after he uses ms on me before he uses another ability (0.3sec), so he switches to another tank bc im a god of gaming."

 

to make it absulitly clear: noone sane healer gives a fuck if you take 50 or even 200 less per swing unless you also tank adds or the boss has a swingtimer of ~0.5sec. if you get your block in stamina instead its the same from a healers perspective.

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stam is actually better than block since which would you prefer when you eat a shadowflame (its unresistable)? Block won't help you here

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Sorry Killerduki im not even going through the effort of quoting all this. But it comes basically down to "some crap about the titanic"  .. "arms warriors" .. "warriors are ragestarved and can't hold aggro".. "oh wait there are like 100 raids per week on this server all tanked by warriors.. this can only mean that all of them are complete idiots and don't know how to play the game right".

Just imagine your typcial xyz run:

.. "oh we need taunts on this fight.. Duki go to the healers and heal and shit .. but whatever you do.. dont use any mana, because we want to pull trash right after the boss fight"

.. "so this boss, duki can tank, bring our ARMS warriors to spam sunder armor because this guy specced into arms and isnt doing any raid relevant dps anyways."

.. "this boss needs to be interrupted.. but duki can't do it.. let our top rogue/warrior do it .. because rage/energy grows on trees and has no impact on dps"

.. "..so we are at maexxna, duki wants to tank it. He has no real cd's to survive webspray for 8secs. So we need our paladins lay on hands on duki to have any chance of survival. Ah nvm duki go to the healers .. but whatever you do.. dont use any mana"

.. ".. guys this is kazzak .. whatever you do dont go under 50% mana.. why did the tank just explode?"

.. "guys we need to optimize our debuff slots. so no useless debuffs on boss fights please.. why are there 2 judgements  on the boss? right duki needs those to not run out of mana in 10 secs"

.. "guys we are at the suppression room now its dukis time to shine. but we cant really run up to the first corner because duki can only use consectration every so often. if you ever get aggro just run back to dukis consecration and you are golden.. Can the rogues disabling the pillars please come back to dukis consecration?" ... "can we have another innervate on duki please?"

.. "guys we need to drop a tank for this run to break our old record. We have lots of fury warriors and a druid who can do the offtanking and still do awesome dps/healing. Duki you have some healgear right?"

.. "guys this boss will enrage/do a crapload of danage under xx%. We need a improved lay on hands on the main tank. Duki are you still there?"

.. "guys this is nefarian. We need at least 4 fear wards on duki to survive this. Good thing we can't use our fear wards on our rogues. They would totally rock the meters. Anyone wants to reroll dwarven priest? "

.. "Oh crap, xyzs pet pulled again. Anyone with a free aoe taunt?" .. "There is a add in the healers group killing them one by one. Duki are you still in Tank gear?"

Prot Paladins make good instance tanks but have no room in any half decent raid setup. Shamans could also tank Onyxia back then, did you ever try that?

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18 hours ago, Nirinia said:

so @killerduki, I'll ask again, when did you last tank Ebonroc? About the block value, sure palas have more in identical gear but doesn't t3 have more?

3 Months ago last time i did tank Ebonroc , i have done that fight over 1000 times and did Maintank him so many times , it's an easy Boss and Paladin Main Tanking him is easy , Warrior just soak the Wing Buffet (ofc if you have any clue about that fight, then you would know this).

The Trinkets,Shields etc and especially Sapphiron Trinket which Paladin is focused on , compare to Warrior focusing on Lifegiving Gem , Gives shit loads of Block Value, the 30% bonus from Paladin Ability it makes this extremely powerful replacing the whole T3 Block Value , while the rest of it goes beyond.

Even if Warrior goes for the Sapphiron Trinket, he then loose Life Giving Gem and again , he loose one of his survival ability as Preachers are pushing toward their propaganda.

With or without Sapphiron Trinket, Warrior does not get 30% extra Block Value and this is the compensation between Paladin higher Block Value vs Warrior higher Stamina.

17 hours ago, Silverlan said:

I just want to address some points: 

Stamina is generally prefered to block value because 10 block value is less valuable than 1 stamina. While you do want the maximum mitigation, stamina gives the large health pool that allows you to survive burst damage. Generally block value will not save you, but stamina will. Imagine it in the extremes, stack block value and have no stamina or no block value and all stamina. 60 damage reduction on blocks will not make a massive difference as the healers can compensate, but there's no way a healer can increase your max hp out of the burst damage. Also think about when you are stunned ect, that's when stamina shoots up in value.

 

BoP is a useful tool. It can be used on taunt immune bosses to control them and will be useful but consider the two points: 

It is not garanteed to return to the paladin. Imagine as a tank you have 100 threat. Warlock 1 pulls aggro with 130 threat, and the boss moves to them so you BoP them. However warlock 2 has 115 threat - the boss is now going to them and you can not prevent it.

Imagine a warrior in this situation, with a paladin healer. The warrior loses agro, boss moves. The paladin healer uses BoP instead. The warrior can then also taunt to save warlock 2.

 

Other live saving measures such as LoH are not exclusive to a paladin tank and can be provided by the healers. The only exclusive ability you have is bubble - which i agree is very strong. However it is not as good as shield wall, gem and last stand.

 

I'm confused a bit about this argument with block percentage as normally a warrior would be using shield block to boost their block which is one of the core reasons they are so strong.

 

Rag specifically has issues because he targets mana users with fireball and knockback, so you will not have consistent kickbacks. Yes you can resist it but that also means you're stacking fire res above what is really necessary and this will limit your tps output. 2 warriors (which  you would have anyway) will just soak the timed knockback and swap then taunt. Rag is very easy but this is still relevant.

 

Paladins do have benefits in using mana - but normally warriors will not struggle with rage. You adjust gear to the encounter so you will be able to have enough rage, hit ect.

 

I'm not saying paladins can't tank but i believe you should take these things into account. The biggest issue i see with paladin tanks(or even retri) is what do they bring that they would not do as a healer. I see paladins can tank, and generate a lot of tps, but is it any better than a warrior - expecially considering how many tools a warrior has at their disposal to control the fight and save themselves.

Quote

 

I just want to address some points: 

Stamina is generally prefered to block value because 10 block value is less valuable than 1 stamina. While you do want the maximum mitigation, stamina gives the large health pool that allows you to survive burst damage. Generally block value will not save you, but stamina will. Imagine it in the extremes, stack block value and have no stamina or no block value and all stamina. 60 damage reduction on blocks will not make a massive difference as the healers can compensate, but there's no way a healer can increase your max hp out of the burst damage. Also think about when you are stunned ect, that's when stamina shoots up in value.

 

Here is the Titanic point where you will tend to ignore , 1 Stamina is 10 HP , 6 Stamina is 60 HP .

On a Boss who is doing damage over 5000 or perhaps more , 60 HP are just trash and garbage in the eyes of Healers, no it will not make you any better , neither save you when you get stunned , nothing will ever change if you have 10 or 60 HP more...

It's plain stupid to say 60 HP will save you from anything when some Boss is doing 5000 Damage or more .

60 (Block Value) Damage reduction means 60 damage reduced per block , over 5 mintues fight (assuming) , there will be (assuming) over 100 Blocks done , this mean 6000 damage reduced over the duration of fight . 6000 damage reduced is 100 times more beneficial than extra 60 HP which mean nothing/nich/zero from a boss who can do 5000 damage per swing.

You say Stamina is better or preferred , not because it is better , because it has to be according to your believes , sure you have said 60 damage (by stamina) > 6000 damage (by block value), it is stupid to think that way , because it is Garbage logic and imo , everyone can read how ridiculous you are with such flawless logc Preaching and Trolling.
 

Quote

 

BoP is a useful tool. It can be used on taunt immune bosses to control them and will be useful but consider the two points: 

It is not garanteed to return to the paladin. Imagine as a tank you have 100 threat. Warlock 1 pulls aggro with 130 threat, and the boss moves to them so you BoP them. However warlock 2 has 115 threat - the boss is now going to them and you can not prevent it.

Imagine a warrior in this situation, with a paladin healer. The warrior loses agro, boss moves. The paladin healer uses BoP instead. The warrior can then also taunt to save warlock 2.

 

Now Imagine in this situation with a Paladin Tank and Healer , the Paladin looses aggro , boss moves to Warlock 1 with 130 threat , The Paladin Tank uses BoP , The Warlock 2 pulls aggro with 115 threat, the Paladin Healer uses BoP , Boss return back to Paladin Tank , no resists at all , no dodge by Mocking Blow , everyone alive and happy, the Raid was aware of the overpull and waited for few seconds until it stabilize, nobody died , after few minutes Boss die and bingo.

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Other live saving measures such as LoH are not exclusive to a paladin tank and can be provided by the healers. The only exclusive ability you have is bubble - which i agree is very strong. However it is not as good as shield wall, gem and last stand.

Sure Bubble and Shield Wall are 2 different things used for different purposes, while Deadly Debuff will cause the Warrior death 100% and wipe the whole raid, the Paladin Bubble will save the whole raid , using it with Macro nobody will notice this even , the fight goes normal.

Speaking about Gem , you tend to ignore the part where this is Trinket and is being exchanged from a Paladin by Sapphiron Trinket which is highly more efficient and 100 times better , especially where Sapphiron Trinket is getting 30% extra efficiency by Paladin's Block Value bonus talent.

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I'm confused a bit about this argument with block percentage as normally a warrior would be using shield block to boost their block which is one of the core reasons they are so strong.

This is the biggest problem about the Preachers, they have no clue about the game at all , they just talk what they read from forums , they just talk what they seen on youtube by preachers (like Alexensual) , they try to find and bring any penny pee and tiny spike to try convict everyone about their theory which is false, fabricated and indeed against their own believes where they will deny everything in the world for that.

There are 2 different things about Block , Block Rate and Block Value , Block Rate gives you chance to block specific attack while Block Value gives you higher damage reduction when you block the specific attack.

Why do you think shield block is strongest point about Warriors ? It's because they push away the Crushing Blow (which still can happen if their block ticks are gone) from the table and reduce the damage taken by the Boss thanks to the Block Value .

With the logic these kids are trying to preach here , 6 Stamina>60 Block Value , the Warrior Block is almost useless except the removal of crushing blow (which still can happen if their block ticks are gone by whatever reason) .

For Paladin this is working in a similar fashion , while Paladin can't remove the Crushing Blow (which is not even a Critical neither is doing any big damage like the Critical) the Block Rate will reduce the chances of eating this Crushing Blows , Paladins unlike Warriors do have more ticks from Holy Shield aka (Warrior version of Shield Block) , Block Value here plays extremely high role as compensation of the Crushing Blows , since Paladins get extra 30% Block Value from all items thanks to the Talents used.

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Rag specifically has issues because he targets mana users with fireball and knockback, so you will not have consistent kickbacks. Yes you can resist it but that also means you're stacking fire res above what is really necessary and this will limit your tps output. 2 warriors (which  you would have anyway) will just soak the timed knockback and swap then taunt. Rag is very easy but this is still relevant.

Ragnaros require Fire resistance , if not cap, at least 150+ , but FR cap is most recommended as you can find in every recent video from Ragnaros fights everyone is using it (and even abusing the UBRS buff for that).

Unlike Warriors loosing the Attack Power when they get the Fire Resistance equipment , Paladins loose nothing , there is not any good weapon with Fire Resistance and you can cap it from other Items, instead Paladins will loose 0 Threats unlike Warriors who tend to loose by huge margins about this (means tons TPS), i've been always overaggroing every single Warrior in this fight , because they are inefficient.

Why is that? Paladins use Spell Damage Weapon+Spell Damage Enchant on Weapon+Spell Damage Oil+Spell Damage Enchant on Shoulders (FR Should)+Spell Damage Elixir.

You can see right now , Paladin gets shit loads of TPS with any kind of Gear used , especially when Spell Damage is 100 times more efficient and scale much higher for Paladin Abilities compare to Warrior Attack Power gained by Buffs , don't forget that Paladin also does benefit from Attack Power which makes him get twice higher boosts (combined with the sp) on his threats compare to the Warrior benefits from Buffs. (Which everyone ignore to count the threats gained by white swings from Paladin as they get 10% extra damage from One-Handed Weap Spec Talent).

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Paladins do have benefits in using mana - but normally warriors will not struggle with rage. You adjust gear to the encounter so you will be able to have enough rage, hit ect.

Yes and now (about Warriors) , they tend to either survive or do more threats, when they focus on more threats then they are weak and have problems to survive , when they focus on more surviving then they got problems with Rage starvation and threats.

Speaking about adjusting gear to the encounter it can also apply to the Paladin , Paladin as a Tank can use any kind of the 3 Specs Gear according to the encounter , it can be filled with Retribution Gear with the encounters where you got Bosses (like Heigan) which uses Spells and don't do lot damage , it can be filled with Tanking Gear with encounters where you got Bosses like Maexxna , it can swap the Weapons between Defensive and Spell Damage one , it can also use Healing Gear when it's needed .

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I'm not saying paladins can't tank but i believe you should take these things into account. The biggest issue i see with paladin tanks(or even retri) is what do they bring that they would not do as a healer. I see paladins can tank, and generate a lot of tps, but is it any better than a warrior - expecially considering how many tools a warrior has at their disposal to control the fight and save themselves.

All of the things you mention was already taken into account 10 years ago and i gave you analyze about it , in that case you also need the things i answered into account.

There is no big issue with Paladin tanks about what they bring that they would not do as a healer, there is only issue with preachers and kids being unable to comprehend or even realize where they are wrong .

Paladin Healers cannot Tank strong Raid Boss , Paladin Healers cannot do lot more threats than a Paladin Tank in regards to AoE , instead Paladin Tank can Heal in raid when he equip gear , Paladin Tank can do lot more damage and threats in AoE compare to a Paladin Healer , Paladin Tank can tank everything while Healer can't do that , even when there is a wipe coming , Paladin Tank can save the day by using Consecration/Kiting and survive even if he get some hits while Kiting , this is where Paladin Healer lack, Paladin Healer can get Daze as he can't get Def Cap, Paladin Tank wont get Daze and he wont get destroyed while kiting.

18 hours ago, Rafale said:

I think @killerduki need his own server. He can't accept that no one want to test his beloved spec. I want him to reroll moonkin, it will be fun with arguments like "you know how much armor moonkin has? they can aoe FARM much better than a frost mage".

Or perhaps you need your mother to teach you how to speak regarding "Topic Discussion" instead of "Killerduki and what you want him to reroll" , keep your wishes for yourself and keep them away from  this  thread derailing with "offtopic discussion", there is a section for that and there are server rules for that, if you had 0000.1% IQ in your brain then you will comprehend this and stop talking.

17 hours ago, DPS said:

@killerduki

Paladin block value is LOWER than warrior's block value(cause of items with block value)

Shadow flame and other spells need really high resist gear to resist all the time(and even with 315 resist it still can hit with 100% power)

Broodlord combo still can kill even warriors with Titans, power word shield, greater stoneshield. Cause MS(20k)+Blast wave(3k)+Knockback(4k)+white hit(4k) - is more than 30k damage(before mitigation). That mean, you will get ~12-13k dmg combo with armor cap if you highly unlucky with boss combos. Few times I seen T3 tanks with Titans and greater stoneshield dies here because of ccccombo.

 

Open your eyes! Everyone here talking you that warriors are abble to have have infinite rage if needed for boss fight(high TPS req fights) - tanks just replacing pure tank items with DPS items that is semi-tanking(lionheart, chromatic boots, dps rings, DFT(rarely, but sometimes tanks from overgeared guilds have this), onslaught girdle, majordomo bracers, R12-13 gear, T2.5 etc depends on patch you're playing. for FULL tanking rotation tank needs only ~10rage per second regeneration. You need to take 30dmg to generate 1 rage, mean to get 10rage per second, you need to take 300dmg/sec! With most boss attack speed 2.0, boss need to cause 600 dmg to you per hit to provide you enough rage! Most bosses are 3-4-5 times more, so you got enough rage even with 2 dodges/misses in a row! So rage isn't issue!

 

 

 

P.S. Please, start reading "P.S." post after you read the text before it.

Well, I'm playing from 2006. Before starting the game is read tons of guides about classes etc(I wanted to play this game before I bought computer, so I was reading from my phone and 2G internet connection, using Opera Mini.jar application), so I choose my first character class even before I seen game (I choose rogue). Like in ~9-10 months I decided to try warrior, but it was my alt, my fav character still was rogue. I was mostly casual PvP player back to that days. During TBC I was intersting in theorycrafting, I was reading elitistjerks dayly, made my own calculations.

After WotLK release I stopped playing after 2months playing on that shit. I claimed for self that WoW is already dead. In like ~1 year I noticed that there started few Wotlk/TBC based "vanilla" servers. So I started to play on em, PvE was poor, but PvP was pretty decent, so I was PvP player that days. So I was jumping between that servers(they were with low livetime, and was open for ~1-2-3 months) untill there was Feenix release. I noticed that PvE at Feenix was really much more close to blizzlike values that any pirate server I seen before, so I decided to start PvE guild. Cause of Feenix content had very high buffed HP/dmg/armor values, most bosses tactics should be updated, since you can't kill that bosses with blizzlike tactics. So I recruted few prot paladins/feral druids for AoE tanking(aoe mobs had too much HP to kill it with ChallShout+AoE, and was hitting to hard to warlock-hellfire tank it, Force reactive disc proc wasn't working back to that days =(  ), also Gluth pala tanking was first used in my guild, other guilds uses mages for this(but you want to focus more top DPSers on Gluth, cause of his INSANE health on Feenix to abble to kill him before Enrage), same goes for BWL Supression room, AQ40 bug tunnel, Ouro scarabs(they had aggro at Feenix, so we used prot paladins to tank em), also we used feral druind to soak PW Hateful strike after it was buffed(any warrior could survive it that times, sometimes it was hitting for 11-12k), that "update" was rollbacked in 2 weeks cause any guild except mine killed him during this 2 weeks.

In general, I was highly hardcore PvE player back to that time (2010-2013), I created few complete DPS spreadsheets (Fury, Rogue, WL and Mage), and countless "light spreadsheets" eg compared rest dru to priest HPS, Hellfire to AoE pally compare, prot warrior TPS calculator, HP needed to survive calculator etc.

So, yeah, I know almost everything about theorycrafting and gamemechanics in Vanilla WoW.

 

 

There is no any hated class/spec by me, I love unusual things (fury tank, Shadow Priest tank, ret DPS, hunter DPS, rogue avoidance tanking, shokadin PvP, fury PvP, druid PvP etc) I really loves this thinks cause its can "refresh" your game feelings, its something you seeing rarely. But sadly, all of this things req pretty rare loot and most of em isn't so much palanced as "normal" specs. I highly wants some kind of update for gear and talents with 1.12.1 client, to allow save using of new builds in raids.

But currently, all possible things are already tested, and according to evolution theory, the most balanced specs, item sets, playstyle are already known and used by most players.

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Paladin block value is LOWER than warrior's block value(cause of items with block value)

Only because you tend to ignore the part where Paladin will get extra 30% more block value from his items compare to the Warrior where he will get 0% more block value from his items. Or even worse , you forgot  Sapphiron Trinket using it's CD block Value + the 30% extra bonus toward that.

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Shadow flame and other spells need really high resist gear to resist all the time(and even with 315 resist it still can hit with 100% power)

Shadow Flame is in fact unresistable Ability which does 3000-5000 damage, you need Onyxia Cloak to remove the effect from it's own DoT .

Your Titanic logic 6 Stamina > 60 Damage reduced per block (where the same bosses are still doing melee swings) gets destroyed where your 60 HP is completely useless when Boss breath your ass with 5000 Damage.

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Broodlord combo still can kill even warriors with Titans, power word shield, greater stoneshield. Cause MS(20k)+Blast wave(3k)+Knockback(4k)+white hit(4k) - is more than 30k damage(before mitigation). That mean, you will get ~12-13k dmg combo with armor cap if you highly unlucky with boss combos. Few times I seen T3 tanks with Titans and greater stoneshield dies here because of ccccombo.

You see where your Titanic logic falls , you just already set Titans/PWS/GS into account and then you speak about damage taken (before Mitigation) , while you as a Preacher is good to manipulate with people , sorry but this doesn't work with me , your Preaching should instead go to some funky youtube channel like Alexensual where people will laugh and make fun of your Titanic logic.

Now back to the Boss discussion where you said "you will get", where in reality "it might happen" 12k-13k (require Video or Screenshot evidence for your claim from Elysium project) combo.

Let imagine BWL is according to MC quality of Gear (stronger than that ofc) and T2 quality of Gear , are you even braindead to think a Warrior with T1 or possibly few T2 items will even manage to survive your 13k Damage Combo which "might happen" all the time as possibility?

Even if that is the case assume your (titanic logic) as a true (which is false), the 12-13k damage will be highly reduced by Greater Fire Protection Potion , Fire Resistance Aura , Power Word Shield (timed for Mortal Strike) will again save you without any problem.

Now , since you claim such ridiculous thing , let us look into a Video from Broodlord in BWL and see how reliable your 12k-13k damage is :

The very first step , where your 12-13k Logic goes Titanic is by seeing the Warrior with T2 or T1 (whatever) is far from Armor Cap and he have 10k HP.

The second step is where the biggest damage Boss has done to the Warrior was 7k with all of the combo used at once (Mort Strike+Blast+Swing) , while it might hurt your ego and believes , i wont include the part where the Priest didn't even timed properly his Bubble to the Warrior in order to reduce the same damage.

The third step is where the same person again mention KTM as non reliable and non working properly (but you said it was only mesmerize) where you claimed it's working according to Blizzlike original formula .

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Open your eyes! Everyone here talking you that warriors are abble to have have infinite rage if needed for boss fight(high TPS req fights) - tanks just replacing pure tank items with DPS items that is semi-tanking(lionheart, chromatic boots, dps rings, DFT(rarely, but sometimes tanks from overgeared guilds have this), onslaught girdle, majordomo bracers, R12-13 gear, T2.5 etc depends on patch you're playing. for FULL tanking rotation tank needs only ~10rage per second regeneration. You need to take 30dmg to generate 1 rage, mean to get 10rage per second, you need to take 300dmg/sec! With most boss attack speed 2.0, boss need to cause 600 dmg to you per hit to provide you enough rage! Most bosses are 3-4-5 times more, so you got enough rage even with 2 dodges/misses in a row! So rage isn't issue!

But then again , this is not surviving Build as "proper Warrior Tank" , imagine the same thing happen with Paladin , just replacing the pure tank items with Retribution Spell Damage itmes. T2.5/Naxx offset/T2/R12-13 Gear etc .

Your Warrior will be turned into dust in regards to TPS and then again your logic goes kamikaze at this point.

You might get some more damage to get more Rage , you might increase your attack power, but you will get reduced by Def stance to the same Damage and your 1h-Shield Fury Warrior will look like a joke Parade compare to Paladin where most overpowered and strong point is Spell Damage Gear (As Plate).

I just hope @Theloras come back from his traveling soon as possible and read the exact same statement you wrote, i am certain 100% he will laugh and post you some Videos/Screenshots about it and how your logic is clueless Kamikaze.

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P.S. Please, start reading "P.S." post after you read the text before it.

Exactly in the same fashion as you "read" (aka ignore) everything said and turn it into your own ways, but sure its funny reading your kamikaze and titanic logic at the end of the day.

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Well, I'm playing from 2006. Before starting the game is read tons of guides about classes etc(I wanted to play this game before I bought computer, so I was reading from my phone and 2G internet connection, using Opera Mini.jar application), so I choose my first character class even before I seen game (I choose rogue). Like in ~9-10 months I decided to try warrior, but it was my alt, my fav character still was rogue. I was mostly casual PvP player back to that days. During TBC I was intersting in theorycrafting, I was reading elitistjerks dayly, made my own calculations.

After WotLK release I stopped playing after 2months playing on that shit. I claimed for self that WoW is already dead. In like ~1 year I noticed that there started few Wotlk/TBC based "vanilla" servers. So I started to play on em, PvE was poor, but PvP was pretty decent, so I was PvP player that days. So I was jumping between that servers(they were with low livetime, and was open for ~1-2-3 months) untill there was Feenix release. I noticed that PvE at Feenix was really much more close to blizzlike values that any pirate server I seen before, so I decided to start PvE guild. Cause of Feenix content had very high buffed HP/dmg/armor values, most bosses tactics should be updated, since you can't kill that bosses with blizzlike tactics. So I recruted few prot paladins/feral druids for AoE tanking(aoe mobs had too much HP to kill it with ChallShout+AoE, and was hitting to hard to warlock-hellfire tank it, Force reactive disc proc wasn't working back to that days =(  ), also Gluth pala tanking was first used in my guild, other guilds uses mages for this(but you want to focus more top DPSers on Gluth, cause of his INSANE health on Feenix to abble to kill him before Enrage), same goes for BWL Supression room, AQ40 bug tunnel, Ouro scarabs(they had aggro at Feenix, so we used prot paladins to tank em), also we used feral druind to soak PW Hateful strike after it was buffed(any warrior could survive it that times, sometimes it was hitting for 11-12k), that "update" was rollbacked in 2 weeks cause any guild except mine killed him during this 2 weeks.

Let me explain you something, I do play this game since 2005 , when you couldn't buy it from Europe and had to play in USA servers , the Internet connection was Phone-Line using 56kbit , i spent thousands in order to enjoy and play this game during that period as Internet was luxury to have and use in Europe.

I begin this game as a Paladin and did strive to learn lot , there was no Guides back then , you could find few curious words , some crying around about some stuffs like raids etc , people had no clue about viable and proper specs, Guides was non existent or few of them was written in Blizzard forums/Allakhazam/Thottbot in a manner of curiosity and still questioning , most of them was "this talent uses for this , that talent uses for that" , but still there was none properly written min/max Guide and how to Tank, why you should get this or that Tank .

I studied the game very careful on my own , reading all the quests , using my logic mindset in regards to talents ,  doing experiments and tests , playing this game Hardcore like no tomorrow , i couldn't care shit about other stuffs outside of World of Warcraft . I was paying thousands to go even at Cybernet club (Internet Cafe) and play 24 hours and 4 days without Sleep at all.

I did expertise my Paladin and did Tank some Raids, when European World of Warcraft was spread , i begin to play in server Burning Blade , it was so fun imo with my experience to meet friends , i was lucky at some point my closest friend (played fire mage) created Hardcore Raiding Guild to compete with everyone in server and do some nice progression to the Raids, i joined his Guild and began with Molten Core , i was always Paladin Tank , anytime i found some issue i was trying to learn , study about it and fix it , Paladins was great before 1.9 Patch , they had Seal of Fury , it was shit loads of threats and was most reliable Tanking Class to MT any Boss who doesn't require Taunt.

Blizzard came to make plenty of these experiments and they changed everything during 1.9 Patch , i was indeed forced to study lot about it , it was hard to realize how Righteous Fury work , it was indeed increasing threats but not even close to how it used before as a Seal , until the day i find out it work extremely perfect with Spell Damage or even better than the Seal of Fury.

Elitistjerks was non existant earlier days , when they came there , they was clueless about many things including Paladin Tanks , i didn't bother reading them since i had lot more experience and knew lot more than them ,i also didn't bother creating Forums or posting into the Forums on my own, it was useless because who knew that "today in 2017" bunch of kids will use these forums as Preaching or Private servers bla bla bla.

My Guild was hardcore and raiding nearly 5 days a week , we managed through the patches and raiding to clear everything up to KT , we cleared MC/Ony/BWL/ZG/AQ20/AQ40 and did 10 Bosses (which include 4hm) in Naxx, the stopping us was the crazy hard Frost Resistance requirement for Sapphiron and the short period of time we had to craft and kill it before TBC release (it was already announced before Naxx). We killed Sapphiron 1 month before 2.0 (tbc beta) patch release and before the Talents got revamp , we had 1 month to test and try to kill KT , unfortunately we managed to get him down to 50%.

When TBC released (the pre opening portal patch) and talents got revamped and changed , we killed KT , but it was unfortunate because our goal was to kill it before, doesn't matter , we were curious about TBC until the day it opened the portal.

Yes i was Paladin Tank since then and i was Maintanking playing "no lifer" hardcore during that period, nobody even dare to say "Paladin is weak or inferior compare to Warrior" , nothing from that even existed at all until 2013 when i stopped Retail World of Warcraft for becoming completely different game.

It all began when i joined for very first time in Private Servers and read all these bunch of kids writing at forums/preaching in youtube and reading your Elitist Jerks forums how they did theorycrafts regarding  this stuffs and talking about this stuffs, based on a Garbage Logic and Gear out of thin air and 0 experiments done about it , it was funny at the beginning and i was laughing until i realize how brainwashed these kids today in 2017 are from such baby cute stories.

I have joined for very first time in Feenix Project at 2013 , it was crazy , nothing working properly , everything bugfest , kids laughing at you for choosing Prot Paladin , it was imo crazy because i had no clue about this Min/Max garbage theory at all , neither i knew it even existed.

These kids laughing at me was always telling me "you will never gonna tank Dungeons as Prot Pally" , "you are crazy for playing it etc" .

Huh it was funny , yeah at some point until i finally hit the lvl 60 there ,not only i did Tank the Dungeons , but also cleared all these bugfest Raids around up until Naxx 8 Bosses with the Guild where i was.

Sure Feenix is not even reliable to talk about , it was Garbage and bugfest project where none of Paladin Abilities was working properly and neither you could Tank lot Bosses because of bugged Abilities and Mechanics.

Nostalrius released later, again same as Feenix ,  bunch of bugs , you couldn't even tank 5 Mans properly there as Paladin ( @Pottu is evidence) as you had extremely big issues with Healers getting threats when target is under Crowd Control (which was bug proven) , still the same kids were telling "oh this is more fixed project than feenix , you can't tank Raids etc , it is Blizzlike server" , damn it was cool reading that , until the day i created my own Guild and washed all their Garbage logic using Fraps to record these Videos.

That was short story from my extremely huge biography skipping all parts from TBC-Pandaria and jumping straight from Vanilla WoW 2005/6 to Vanilla WoW 2013-2017 biography i have.
 

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In general, I was highly hardcore PvE player back to that time (2010-2013), I created few complete DPS spreadsheets (Fury, Rogue, WL and Mage), and countless "light spreadsheets" eg compared rest dru to priest HPS, Hellfire to AoE pally compare, prot warrior TPS calculator, HP needed to survive calculator etc.

So, yeah, I know almost everything about theorycrafting and gamemechanics in Vanilla WoW.

 

You see, you were hardcore PvE player back to the period where Private servers was the only way for you to play Vanilla WoW , as you claimed yourself quit when WoTLK released , so you was actually playing 2010-2013 Vanilla server filled with bugfiesta (10000000 times more bugs than current emulation).

You knowledge was all about reading forums and only tests done was in emulation private server based on stock core with Millions bugs and unreliable and Unblizzlike things.

All of the Theorycrafting you have done and Gamemechanics in Vanilla WoW are nothing more than just bunch of Garbage story's based off a Garbage Project created , i am sorry but here is where your logic goes Titanic , i was wrong , completely wrong , you actually have no clue about this game at all , no wonder you come here like Kamikaze Preaching like crazy pushing some joking Forum reading comments which was not even 100% accurate at all , just reading comments from bunch of curious people how things work , but not how to play properly and min/max like you try to push today.

Yes trolls exist , since back then , but imagine how ridiculous will sound this Forum post we speak right now, if someone look into it during 2020 or 2030 ? Filled with false informations by bunch of kids, probably even Aliens will laugh at it and get confused by your fabricated and false comments.

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There is no any hated class/spec by me, I love unusual things (fury tank, Shadow Priest tank, ret DPS, hunter DPS, rogue avoidance tanking, shokadin PvP, fury PvP, druid PvP etc) I really loves this thinks cause its can "refresh" your game feelings, its something you seeing rarely. But sadly, all of this things req pretty rare loot and most of em isn't so much palanced as "normal" specs. I highly wants some kind of update for gear and talents with 1.12.1 client, to allow save using of new builds in raids.

There is no such "isn't so much balanced" as "normal" specs in this game, there is only clueless preachers and forum trolls destroying anyone's thread if it bring something "better and prove things aren't how everyone speak about" , every single Class can do exactly the same DPS and be strong , ofc this might never happen because A: Bugged Projects including Elysium , B: Clueless people using knowledge based of Preachers and Forums , C: Lack of Information about specific Ability and Mechanic from original World of Warcraft Vanilla era, D: Lack of information brought to poor scripting of the project , E: Lack of choices thanks to bunch of brainwashed kids, D: Lack of project resources and will to fix things and make them work 100% Blizzlike.

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But currently, all possible things are already tested, and according to evolution theory, the most balanced specs, item sets, playstyle are already known and used by most players.

Nothing is properly tested at all , not even 10% of the things are brought at it's theory , 90% of the kids (including you) didn't even test anything during early days in 2005/6 in order to prove something , none of them been even playing all Classes but specific ones only and casual crybaby style , nothing is yet known much as it should at all , 60% of  the Bugreports in the previous and some at recent bugtracker was brought here by me using Webarchive and 100 of hours trying to find single pile of clue and evidence to prove the so disaster bugfiesta Project in order to fix things for better tomorrow, i was using my knowledge that i have from early days in order to know what i am looking for and it was easy for me ,because i knew how things was working and i had everything tested previously.

Who would knew today One-Handed Weapon Spec that increase SoR damage for Paladins? Such discussion and this talent was never mention by nobody at all , including Theloras himself didn't knew about this until i , for very first time brought this in Nostalrius Bugtracker , NOBODY had any clue at all how SoR did work , it was mainly based of a Flat damage done.

Why ? Because all of these kids  and preachers like you, "knew everything that exist and know every single shit where my ass was shitting in every single Toilet", searching for Garbage arguments/excuses clueless about it.

You know nothing about this Game and you should give up preaching , stop doing it and it will save the Game how it is meant to be instead of how you try to Preach.

18 hours ago, DPS said:

And again, I wasn't talked you about "DAMAGE REDUCTION" I was talked about "SURVIVABILITY". Thats 2 did things!

 

Example:

tank 1-  50% damage reduction and 10k HP

tank 2 - 30% damage reduction and 40k HP

What tank is better? -Tank 2 is better! Yeah, he tooks more damage, but its most likely will stay alive cause boss need much more time to kill him, and your healers are still can heal this dmg, cause their overheal is much lower now! 

So, tank 2 will take LESS raw heal, More effective healing and less overhealing! And tank 2 is alive!

so, if warrior's "DAMAGE REDUCTION" is 2.9% more, "SURVIVABILITY" surelly will be much more than +2.9% cause of highest HP values.

Only because in Vanilla you can go up to 40k HP?

See the irony in this post , even if we bother talking your 40k HP Tank , surely he is taking more Damage but when Healers thanks to healing him more will run out of mana easily and your Tank  2 will end up Garbage wiping the whole Raid.

You should just stop trash talk , simple as that .

18 hours ago, DPS said:

P.S. I didn't used flask of titans for that screen cause you told me that you're using Flask of Supreme power! 

If you forgot, I added screenshots with Flask of the Titans up, but still thats didn't change anything for your poor BiS geared paladin

No , you said Fury Warrior Tanking , but instead you posted Protection Warrior Tanking screenshot .

When you mix frogs and cabbages , this is how you get confused by speaking about Prot Warrior Tank Gear and Fury Warrior Tank threats.

When you compare Prot Warrior Tank Gear it means you gotta compare with Prot Paladin Tank Gear , when you compare Fury Warrior Tank threats then you should compare it with Retri Paladin Tank threats.

You see how your flawless and garbage logic leads you to being confused? You just got yourself destroyed on your own confused logic.

6 hours ago, flowqz said:

i just told you, that noone cares about your little blockvalue, because only bursts kill you, unless you have multiple mobs on you (e.g. garr adds).

in a fight with 1 boss and no adds on you its irrelevant if you got that in block or stamina, it doesnt matter at all, so yes its about 6stam for your 60block.

fyi a tank of ours once got killed in a timeframe of 0.3sec, i wanna see you using a priestshield in that timeframe, fyi a good argument for your paladin tank would have been "lul i can bubble right after he uses ms on me before he uses another ability (0.3sec), so he switches to another tank bc im a god of gaming."

 

to make it absulitly clear: noone sane healer gives a fuck if you take 50 or even 200 less per swing unless you also tank adds or the boss has a swingtimer of ~0.5sec. if you get your block in stamina instead its the same from a healers perspective.

Same as i made absolutely clear : None sane Healer will even notice if you had 60 more HP out of 10k HP , neither none of the sane 60 HP will help you from 5k Damage taken , while 60 Damage Reduction in long run it does have impact as it is savior for Healer's Mana by not wasting it too much.

Your Burst logic is Garbage, the 60 HP will save nothing at all when you get Mortal Strike with 5k damage , you will simple vanish and that's it, imagine how much more helpful if you could instead reduce 6000 Damage for the whole duration of fight , that's like 1 full Mortal strike removed instead.

4 hours ago, Nirinia said:

stam is actually better than block since which would you prefer when you eat a shadowflame (its unresistable)? Block won't help you here

Same Garbage story again , ShadowFlame is doing 3-5k damage , you as a Tank have lot more than that (especially with buffs), PWS will absorb half or part of the same damage , Block might probably wont be affected by that , but same as your 60 HP wont even notice when you eat the whole 5k Damage, you will die either way .

Speaking out of Garbage thin air logic leading you to a Garbage player, because the exactly same bosses who are doing ShadowFlame are also doing melee swings that can be reduced and could also help so much to the healers thru the whole duration of fight.

2 hours ago, wurzlsepp said:

Sorry Killerduki im not even going through the effort of quoting all this. But it comes basically down to "some crap about the titanic"  .. "arms warriors" .. "warriors are ragestarved and can't hold aggro".. "oh wait there are like 100 raids per week on this server all tanked by warriors.. this can only mean that all of them are complete idiots and don't know how to play the game right".

Just imagine your typcial xyz speedrun:

.. "oh we need taunts on this fight.. Duki go to the healers and heal and shit .. but whatever you do.. dont use any mana, because we want to pull trash right after the boss fight"

.. "so this boss, duki can tank, bring our ARMS warriors to spam sunder armor because this guy specced into arms and isnt doing any raid relevant dps anyways."

.. "this boss needs to be interrupted.. but duki can't do it.. let our top rogue/warrior do it .. because rage/energy grows on trees and has no impact on dps"

.. "..so we are at maexxna, duki wants to tank it. He has no real cd's to survive webspray for 8secs. So we need our paladins lay on hands rotation on duki to have any chance of survival. Ah nvm duki go to the healers .. but whatever you do.. dont use any mana"

.. "guys we need to optimize our debuff slots. so no useless debuffs on boss fights please.. why are there 2 judgements  on the boss? right duki needs those to not run out of mana in 10 secs"

.. "guys we are at the suppression room now its dukis time to shine. but we cant really run up to the first corner because duki can only use consectration every so often. if you ever get aggro just run back to dukis consecration and you are golden.. Can the rogues disabling the pillars please come back to dukis consecration?" ... "can we have another innervate on duki please?"

.. "guys we need to drop a tank for this run to break our old record. We have lots of fury warriors and a druid who can do the offtanking and still do awesome dps/healing. Duki you have some healgear right?"

.. "guys this boss will enrage/do a crapload of danage under xx%. We need a improved lay on hands on the main tank. Duki are you still there?"

.. "guys this is nefarian. We need at least 4 fear wards on duki to survive this. Good thing we can't use our fear wards on our rogues. They would totally rock the meters. Anyone wants to reroll dwarven priest? "

.. "Oh crap, xyzs pet pulled again. Anyone with a free aoe taunt?" .. "There is a add in the healers group killing them one by one. Duki are you still in Tank gear?"

Prot Paladins make good instance tanks but have no room in any half decent raid setup. Shamans could also tank Onyxia back then, did you ever try that?

Nice song , now back to school again and learn how to "properly sing and analyze stuffs".

Prot Paladin in Raid is in fact, the best to make the whole Raid better and speaking about Onyxia ,sure i have already seen and done it as Shadow Priest Tank , enjoy.

/Kind regards Killerduki

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Talking about "analyzing" post a Raidlog of your Paladin Maintanking any Raid higher than MC in sub 40 minutes please. Then we are talking about real tanking. Taunt mechanics are in the game for a reason. If palas can "outplay" them this has to be fixed obviously. No logs = not real.

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31 minutes ago, wurzlsepp said:

Talking about "analyzing" post a Raidlog of your Paladin Maintanking any Raid higher than MC in sub 40 minutes please. Then we are talking about real tanking. Taunt mechanics are in the game for a reason. If palas can "outplay" them this has to be fixed obviously. No logs = not real.

Nice cheapshots and double edits before you post this spin.

Taunts are not going to make Warriors better threats and faster tanks to make Speedrun, AoE Tank will do.

What Raidlogs you are even talking about ? Those who are not on my Raids? , Those who are recorded as a Casual Raid? Those who doesn't exist and was removed from my previous Raids early days in Feenix where i had the fastest AQ20 and AQ40 Runs Tanking?

http://realmplayers.com/CharacterViewer.aspx?realm=WSG&player=Killerduki

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/PlayerOverview.aspx?realm=WSG&player=Killerduki

Where are the Logs ?  Where is my Tanking Gear used? Where my Screenshots coming from?

Talking about Raidlogs is Garbage.

/Kind regards Killerduki

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@killerduki

Warrior T3 provides +92block value and 30 more from ZG enchants. Your BiS pala gear have +0block value from armor and +0 from enchants. 

So warrior gets 122more def than pally(w/o +block talent). You cant outnumber this numbers with your +30% block value talents. 

If I remember correct, in BiS gear your pally have 175 block value(WITH TALENT!) and warrior got 250 block value. So you'r theory is wrong as always.

 

Broodlord:

He hits that tank for ~1k(looks like they nerfed it, since in db his agv dmg is 5.5k(1.375 after armor)). MS hits x5 times (=up to 5k), knockback is weapon dmg(=~1k), blast wave is up to 3k. 1+5+1+3=10k! If you're highly inlucky. Also, there's a chance tank wouldn't be at full HP during MS hit.

Do you remember the times before ZG buffs goes life? Tanks were dying all the time at Broodlord! 

 

You're skilled paladin, but looks like you're completely don't knows anything about other classes! You can't compare other classes values to pally values in raid. 

I bet you're also thinking that paladins are best healers, and "average damagedealers" that "just need gear and skill". You should try to play other classes to get what they are about. Didn't you been part of <Paladin only PvE guild> with tanks/healers and dps paladins?

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Of course killerduki, if you have to say that "paladins can maintank" you also have to say that raidlogs are complete nonsense. One cannot go with the other, otherwise there would have been a proof that you where maintanking in any reasoable way.

So we got

1.) Killerduki saying that Paladins can maintank every Boss encounter in the game

2.) No Raidlogs whatsoever because "Raidlogs is Garbage"

3.) Some videos showing our golden hero dancing around random instance trash and selected bosses.

Which sums up to this whole discussion being completely pointless. Im sure paladins can tank some bosses maybe even whole mc/bwl raids if the guild is willing to take comprises. There is just no benefit in it, other than the gimmick part which gets old way to fast.

And btw you have insulted me already 3 times personally in this thread, whereas all i said was "paladins can't maintank" and "prot paladins bring nothing to the raid". So excuse my words Mr Crapadin.

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24 минуты назад, wurzlsepp сказал:

And btw you have insulted me already 3 times personally in this thread,

He insulted my like 20-30 times already XD

Take it easy, I bet he's child, cause mature person wouldn't communicate in such way with "titanic logic"

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We will not agree on the stamina vs block value and there is not much I can say that hasn't been said already. Just know there has been times when I have taken burst damage and survived with <100 hp. If i had gone for block enchants as oposed to stamina I would have died. This alone shows it's value to me. 

 

This is linked with the Safiron / LGG comparison - i simply can not say it's so much better. You can pop Gem when you know burst or stuns are incoming and give you a buffer, the block trinket will not save you the same way. Even if we agree it is better, it can also be used by a warrior who benefits from the effect as well - with the added benefit of  mpre TPS as shield slam scales with block value.

 

I really don't understand the aggressiveness when I said about the comparison between shield block and holy shield. I will not change my opinion over the use of pushing spike damage of the attack table is better than a lesser increase im blocl chance + more block value. 

 

You really can not state that paladins lose nothing by going FR gear - that is simply not true. I understand your reasoning but unless your BiS list has tbe necissary FR then it's just not true. I will accept your exaggeration but understand how easy it is for a warrior to control Rag with taunts. Anyway Rag is a bit of a moot point because he's easy for anyone.

 

I understand you are saying you can always BoP in addition to the paladin healer but this will just loop indefintely. What i mean is that BoP can always be done by a healer, taunt can only be done by the warrior tank.

 

I understand what you're saying a tanking paladin can bring as oposed to a healing one but the fact is paladins are amazing healers so you will have them anyway. When combined with a warrior tank they become a strong pair of combined spells and skills. A paladin tank and another paladin healer does not really bring anything more than another bubble.

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Further to all of this, as mentioned before you are in an incredibly good place to prove us all wrong. You have a character with a thunderfury on a server which is approaching a raid full of undead. 

I know your reason for quiting and will not argue how valid that is but surely you want to go out there and test this stuff and prove it to people? Yes there are still bugs but truly how many are left which drop your ability to tank? Bearing in mind warriors still can not proc chance on hit as they should.

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1 час назад, Silverlan сказал:

Further to all of this, as mentioned before you are in an incredibly good place to prove us all wrong. You have a character with a thunderfury on a server which is approaching a raid full of undead. 

I know your reason for quiting and will not argue how valid that is but surely you want to go out there and test this stuff and prove it to people? Yes there are still bugs but truly how many are left which drop your ability to tank? Bearing in mind warriors still can not proc chance on hit as they should.

He simply can't get that the only thing that makes him to tank hard bosses is good healers he got in raid. And bug abuse(as for Maexxna). He thinks that his own achievement and any pala in any raid group can do same things.

Also hardly lold about situation:

overaggro by WL>BoP>another one overaggro by 2-nd WL>2-nd BoP by healpala. Thats req so huge skill for both palas. BoP rotation in 1-2seconds is pretty hard for most players.

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