Theloras

coming from the king of bug abusers - I find that rich - PS lie more bro Multiple ranks of the same Judgement is working as intended

^^^ I think this pretty much sums everything up in one concise post ^^^

As Elysium Dev Cgbd42 previously said on github: “We are here to reproduce what have existed, not do fair things for every one.” https://github.com/elysium-project/server/issues/422 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Previous view of this mechanic back on Nostalrius: Re: Multiple Judgement of Crusade should not be Bannable by Nano » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:25 am No one has been banned for this and they won't because it's working as intended. This whole thread has run its course. https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25589&start=30#p182280 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Evidence for the Mechanic: #7Oct 13 2005 at 12:31 PMRating: Decent Cathela Scholar ** 961 posts Quote: Multiple paladins can stack different ranks of the judgements on the same mob. The last time my raid group killed Ragnaros we didn't have enough priests to do AoE heals on the rogues, so the three paladins in the melee groups coordinated different ranks of Judgement of Light on him, and the rogues and dps warriors ended up healing themselves a lot. Reportedly this was nerfed in the 1.8 patch so that now you can only have one rank each of JoW and JoL on a monster, though I haven't had a chance to confirm this. Also, there's apparently some kind of aggro screwup when JoL and JoW proc since the patch. Not sure if this has been hotfixed or not. http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=243&mid=11287757594799940 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - As the cherry on top -- if you've got three Paladins you can judge all three different ranks of Wisdom on the target. They stack. Mega mana regain! http://paladinsucks.blogspot.com/2005/08/best-way-to-regain-your-mana.html - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Basically you've got so many procs going off, with each one having a chance to trigger Judgement of Wisdom, that on average you'll see 2 JoW procs per swing (that's +118 mana per swing). It's sick. When you see JoW proc 4 times off a single hit (not uncommon), you'll laugh at how rediculous this is. http://paladinsucks.blogspot.com/2005/12/super-mana-regen-is-back.html - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Judgement of the Crusader: It is no longer possible to have icons for two different ranks of Judgment of the Crusader appear at the same time when judged by multiple Paladins. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/patch-notes/2-4-0 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - i was just getting into boxing i started with 2 paladins... they were both using judgement of light and the debuff (heal on hit) effect was stacking for both pallies. http://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/19271-Is-the-JoL-debuff-still-stacking http://i41.tinypic.com/29oj3op.jpg - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Plus there's also this - which Guybrush alluded to in the github report: TLDR - Nihilum was never banned for this type of mechanic "Blizzard if you are going to pick sides, make it a little less obvious... Was Nihilum/Ensidia ever banned for using "Clever game mechanics" on..... C'thun (Know anything about a disgusting Oozling Kungen?) Lady Vashj.....Respawns? Twins...No video from first kill Kungen? Sat on a torch? Hodir....Flower power? Mimiron...JoL stacking?" http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/654702-Ensidia-exploited-on-Mimiron-(-proof)/ and http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/exodus-banned-for-exploiting-omg.181995804/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Precedent for Vanilla era changes not known until much later on - Seal Twisting: Seal Twisting was why there was such a DPS imbalance between horde and alliance ret paladins during tbc it wasn't discovered until patch 2.3 by a Paladin named Slayton but was there all along from patch 1.11 onwards when Seal of Command received its 0.5 second delay: Since Patch 1.11, Seal of Command proc will have approximately 0.5 second delay before the animation begins and the Holy damage is incurred, instead of having the proc occur instantly with the swing of the attack. This is considered a good change, since if the normal swing is a critical strike and Vengeance is triggered, the Seal of Command proc will be affected by the buff. http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Seal_of_Command_(old) 20:5352.859 Faptamerica gains Seal of Command 20:5354.093 Faptamerica gains 1 Attack from Windfury Attack 20:5354.093 Faptamericas Swing hits Brutallus for 1166 Physical damage (glancing) 20:5354.453 Faptamerica gains Seal of Blood 20:5354.453 Faptamerica gains Windfury Attack 20:5354.546 Faptamericas Seal of Command hits Brutallus for 1661 Holy damage 20:5354.546 Faptamericas Swing hits Brutallus for 1393 Physical damage (glancing) 20:5354.671 Faptamerica gains 20 Mana from Mana Spring of Mana Spring Totem V 20:5355.328 Faptamericas Seal of Blood crits Brutallus for 1858 Holy damage 20:5355.328 Faptamericas Seal of Blood crits Brutallus for 1907 Holy damage 20:5355.687 Faptamericas Seal of Blood hits Brutallus for 633 Holy damage (201 resisted) https://web.archive.org/web/20081212220233/www.retpaladin.com/warcraft/2008/05/how-to-seal-twist/ TLDR - Seal Twisting allowed a Blood Elf Paladin to double dip their Seals (Command and Blood) to basically double their DPS during TBC Blizzard diid NOT consider this to be an exploit but instead called it, "A Creative use of Game Mechanics." - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Where things stand now: It would appear that the Usual Suspects et al are now on their THIRD THEORY at explaining/refuting the mechanic. As far as I can tell and report to you, these are the theories that they have tried to come up with over the past two days to try and refute the evidence for the multiple ranks of the same judgement mechanic (on github, the elysium forums and now reddit) First - the 2005 blog poster was incorrect and the mechanic never existed in the first place Second - the mechanic did exist but was a bug and removed/nerfed/hotfixed by blizzard prior to patch 1.8 Third - the mechanic did exist on retail, was removed prior to patch 1.8 then reappeared on a ptr server that magically never went live https://www.reddit.com/r/wowservers/comments/6cx6hz/because_imbaslaproadblock_and_crestfall_are/dhylgnp/ I don’t know about the rest of you, but their thought processes do not follow any private server’s code of conduct or rationale for posting or refuting bug reports. They are letting their own anti-paladin, anti-killerduki and anti-theloras biases interfere with their responsibility to follow the evidence. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - I will leave you with this gem from @taladril - who I think summed things up pretty well before: "Lol the la la la I don't want to hear it argument. Convincing. You guys show nothing but non professionalism. Proof has been found. Are you gonna fix it or not? If not then don't hide behind the shield of "it's ok guys cause rets aren't viable" cause that's just lame. And I'm not saying it for Theoloras's or Duki's benefit. We're all looking for accuracy here." http://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=43506&hilit=holy+resistance+is&start=380#p317419 We all want accuracy - myself included - and I'm not afraid of going straight to the source to try and achieve it: I also sent an email to Kungen asking if he might be able to shed any potential light on the debate given he was in on many world firsts throughout vanilla, TBC and LK and potentially be able to reach out to other guilds as well asking for their input as well.

multiple independent sources confirm the mechanic to have existed during retail Vanilla AKA not a bug TLDR - Working as intended

Thanks to lying scrubs who are jealous: Pally Judgement debuffs stacking exploit https://github.com/elysium-project/server/issues/802

you know what guys - now it all makes sense

the difference between the two is that I found a vanilla source for multi rank judgements you guys used your own anti-paladin and anti-me + anti-duki bias to cloud your judgement (pun intended) when it came to holy resistance plus you're a habitual liar - that github thread was just the latest example where you said that this was considered a bug back on nost TLDR - it wasn't a bug on nost and I got the green light from Nano to use it

like holy resistance?

I have no beef with you Patchi but it looks like you need a refresher course on how the Crestfall $hitters used the actual WoW game CD/DVD source code to try and "PROOVE" their theory that Holy Resistance existed. Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you Snawfu... Re: Crestfall - 1x progressive Vanilla server by snawfu » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:32 pm Bearier wrote:Just an FYI: According to Darkrasp, it's not the TrinityCore or any server-side stuff they're using that he claims has this logic in it. It's the actual client that all players are using, which is why they aren't changing it. That's what he claims, anyway. I remember reading it in the Paladin thread when he was arguing with Duki. I'll check it later to find where he said that and provide a source. (I'm at work right now and their forum is blocked) http://imgur.com/a/OpfI3 @duki this is how you dump pictures btw. So I've just done this. Instead of Pottu's uninformed post, this is actual research (originally by Crestfall team) and facts, not wowwiki articles that can be edited by anyone (which are based on the player's interpretation of how things worked in 2006). This is the second to last post (last post will be on the Elysium open bugtracker to make sure you lads get it right) I'm making on the subject, there is no way to argue against the actual game files that I've just opened for you to read; keep in mind you can do this as well with your own WOW installation in case you think I'm faking a WOW installation and have inserted things into the game files to prove a point (lmao). http://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=43506&p=317346&hilit=snawfu#p317323 TLDR - The source code and any addon on top of that will only get you so far when it comes to Paladin spells/abilities during Vanilla due to the server override to remove Holy Resistance or Seal of Righteousness being coded on the server not the client for example: Seal of Righteousness Rank 8 200 mana Instant Fills the Paladin with holy spirit for 30 sec, granting each melee attack an additional 20.528735632184 to 71.44 Holy damage. Slower weapons cause more Holy damage per swing. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time. Unleashing this Seal's energy will cause 162 to 179 Holy damage to an enemy. Effect #1(6) Apply Aura #4: Dummy Value: 1786 Effect #2(6) Apply Aura #4: Dummy Value: 20286 http://db.vanillagaming.org/?spell=20293

Fine, everyone seems to ask Duki and I to take a step back so why don't we. Let's get rid of the drama and let me ask @Guybrush and @Phoosy a simple question whether they even believe the 2005 post in the first place? I think Phoosy doesn't but I can't remember if Guybrush does or not.

Like Seal Twisting during Vanilla?

The example is already there and it's called Seal Twisting - something that was enabled during patch 1.11 but wasn't discovered until patch 2.3 by Slayton - a mechanic/tactic that literally DOUBLED Blood Elf DPS when they began pairing Seal of Command + Seal of Blood and Windfury Even Blizzard commended Slayton for discovering it in the first place - rather than nerf/remove/hotfix it, they called it, "A Creative Use of Game Mechanics." So again, for the umpteenth time I will say again... THE ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE

argh sorry - I forgot to amend this forum post - it will actually go through tonight during this week's dev update if you play on anathema whisper theoloras ingame and ill send you some gold for my error

lolz!

well that at least made me laugh and I will break out my old Mac G5 that I used back during retail Vanilla as I had a bunch of screenshots from that era still on

The only change that the Feenix devs made was to add the 0.5 second delay to Seal of Command due to the evidence from the 1.11 Patch change and voila Seal Twisting is possible - you can do the same yourself if you have a Paladin. All of the evidence was listed and shown on Feenix's github at the time but has since been taken down. Anyway, I don't need to provide any other proof to you because Seal Twisting is possible here on Elysium due to Seal of Command working properly and having its 0.5 second delay - you are free to test it out yourself if you have a Paladin.

no I'm not cuz i got the EXACT SAME ARGUMENT from people there on Feenix - SHOW ME VANILLA EVIDENCE THAT SEAL TWISTING EXISTED IN VANILLA OR GTFO

Re: Seal Twisting - you are welcome to try it out for yourself and see how you can Seal Twist here on Elysium as I did on Feenix: If you refuse to accept a legitimate Blizzard patch note, then I really am at a loss for words here... As for this quote by you, "The burden of proof relies on the one making the outrageous claims..." Imbaslap was the one who cast the first stone by claiming/lying that this mechanic was considered a bug on Nost and accused my guild of exploiting here on Elysium - for which he received no reprimand for. Regarding this, "It's the equivalent of someone saying you could fight Arthas back in Vanilla." are you suggesting that the person who wrote the forum post was specifically telling tales in order to pull the wool over everyone's eyes back on retail as well the entire private vanilla server 12 years later? PS "Given multiple posts or content that also claims this was a thing would go a long way to making me believe it was intended - otherwise?" Seal Twisting was never intended by Blizzard but they considered it a "Creative use of Game Mechanics" and applauded Slayton for discovering it in the first place.

BTW you copy/pasted stuff the Duki wrote on github not me - "If this is not a Evidence, then i consider this report or everyone who support as retarded based on Darkrasp attitude claiming on self opinion (like the Holy Resistance) instead of giving counter evidence..."

"We are here to reproduce what have existed, not do fair things for everyone." You cannot deny the 2005 forum post and any attempt by you to do so is being intellectually dishonest on your part. I provided a legitimate first hand post from retail vanilla stating the mechanic existed. You need to prove that the mechanic was removed/nerfed/hotfixed. Just like the info I PMed you about Seal Twisting - it was possible ever since the Seal of Command change in patch 1.11 and was hidden in plain sight until late TBC when Slayton first discovered it. Or do you continue to deny that being a legitimate vanilla mechanic as well?

@Hudson ahem...

what's good for the goose is good for the gander Hudson - are you admitting that a double standard therefore exists here and that people $hitting on either Duki or I is fair game? we got a 3day ban from github - so where is the reciprocal action on your part against people here on the forums against us?

@Phoosy @Guybrush - Respectfully, if I may take a moment and remind you of what Cgbd42 said on this report since I received a 3day ban on Github: "We are here to reproduce what have existed, not do fair things for everyone." https://github.com/elysium-project/server/issues/422 The evidence that I found from 2005 proves that the "Multiple Ranks of the same Judgement" mechanic existed during Vanilla - on that point we all agree: http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=243&mid=11287757594799940 #7Oct 13 2005 at 12:31 PMRating: Decent Cathela Scholar ** 961 posts Quote: Multiple paladins can stack different ranks of the judgements on the same mob. The last time my raid group killed Ragnaros we didn't have enough priests to do AoE heals on the rogues, so the three paladins in the melee groups coordinated different ranks of Judgement of Light on him, and the rogues and dps warriors ended up healing themselves a lot. Reportedly this was nerfed in the 1.8 patch so that now you can only have one rank each of JoW and JoL on a monster, though I haven't had a chance to confirm this. Also, there's apparently some kind of aggro screwup when JoL and JoW proc since the patch. Not sure if this has been hotfixed or not. What you and no one else can prove however is whether this particular mechanic was removed/nerfed/hotfixed by Blizzard from patch 1.8 onwards - similarly the original forum poster himself even admits that he doesn't know and therefore cannot confirm its removal either. Likewise, you cannot just use your own personal beliefs or opinions to make "things fair for everyone" as Cgbd42 previously said. Anything less than that would therefore constitute a double standard - again I'm honestly not trying to be a dick here - but please try to see it from our perspective. That's all I ask.

You know Josip - this doesn't help things and quite honestly takes a huge chink out of your "I'm a member of Elysium so I take the high road" argument - especially since both Duki and I got 3day bans from github. Where is the forum moderation here or in other threads for people $hitting on and trolling us? If Elysium has become nothing more than a Crestfall 2.0 shill then I would rather know here and now than continue playing.

Is your guild discord anything like this? If so, invite plz! :P