AgentMulder

Server has been live for two days and already the devs have hinted at the need for a 4th server. The queues have approached 15,000 regularly, so that's 25,000 players with the cap + queue. Or...1000% beyond the "original retail experience". At that point the type of player is irrelevant, total noob or established vet. I don't think anyone is arguing what happens by level 15, as your tier 1 options are only 7 to choose from, 5 if you don't count Destro. Now Destro...that is going against the gospel lol. We're talking about effective leveling in an extremely crowded environment, and how there is a need to shift focus from "you must take every talent that increases raw damage" to "maybe consider survivability over raw damage". No one is purposely going against the gospel out of spite or ignorance, we're actually just trying to have a constructive conversation about the other talent choices that exist, with folks chiming in who've taken these paths and are providing feedback. I simply fail to see how spending 3 talent points to boost my CoA damage from 324 to 343 is efficient, like at all. The only argument for spending those points is if you're making sure that mobs do not die any sooner than 24 seconds, cause that's how you actually use that extra damage. But that in itself is counter-intuitive to maintaining speed. In most rotations, you aren't even putting CoA up. Typically it's Siphon Life (nice to always stay topped off) + Corruption + wand (switching to drain soul as needed). If you told me I could spend 3 talent points to have 19 damage on a DoT that takes 24 seconds, vs. 42% additional pushback protection on 3 spells...yeah I'm going with the pushback protection all day every day. Fel Concentration provides this protection against ALL types of incoming damage, melee and spell, so it's useful against every single enemy. There are points that are flexible, it just so happens that those flexible points for the Warlock are coming between levels 25 and 40.

Not trying to re-invent the wheel, nor am I trying to devalue the guide, I just think too many people throw out the term "efficiency" and then just assume that everything will fall into place, forgetting to define what they mean exactly. In terms of RAW efficiency...yes this build is great and I agree 100%, but it makes a few assumptions: You are never ganked, nor do you actively seek out any PvP (Nost PvP had 11K+ players online the other day...) You never die (because corpse walks are a massive loss of time in Vanilla) Every DoT you apply (especially CoA) lasts its full duration before the mob dies so that it provides the maximum damage per mana spent You solo everything and don't play with any friends, or you never have a healer in group content There is zero competition for mobs (because any competition will create a natural down time where you regen) Find me one Warlock, who is leveling on Nost PvP (or will level on Elysium PvP) where all of these conditions are being met... On the topic of CoA, assuming you follow this guide exactly, you will have Improved CoA 3/3 at level 30. At that level, you have access to CoA rank 3 which does 324 damage over 24 seconds. This is base damage, not modified by spell power or anything. With 3/3 Improved CoA it will do 343 damage. So for 3 talent points, you are getting a paltry 19 more damage spread across 24 seconds of time. That's 2.375 damage per tick...I have no idea if the game rounds up or down. Or...you could take 1.5 seconds and wand once with your Gravestone Scepter and do 44 damage (on average, base not modified) for zero mana. I don't know, maybe I'm over thinking it, but there's a reason why Blizzard changed Improved CoA in BC to only cost two talent points, and up the damage by 5/10%. I'm not saying to stop pulling multiple mobs and increase your speed...if you have the access to the mobs with no competition, then please continue to pull multiple mobs and DoT them all up. I just think Improved CoA is perhaps the worst talent in the tree in terms of return investment, and it's worth taking an honest look and seeing if those 3 talent points are better spent elsewhere (which I believe they are). I cannot beat your played time, because for me the game is not a race. Also I entered STV one time, but that's a story for another thread :-)

I agree with you. There's easily 10 talent points between the two trees that you can freely shift around to your liking. Almost every guide will suggest going 3/3 Improved CoA but really those are just filler points. On bosses...just amplify it. What you NEED for leveling: -At least 3/5 Suppression -2/2 Improved Life Tap -2/2 Nightfall (the advantages of which you'll see more in dungeons rather than soloing, totally worth it) -2/2 Improved Healthstone -3/3 Improved Voidwalker -1/1 Fel Domination (pretty nice life saver if you pull more mobs than intended...sac your void for shield, pop this and bring out another void, cast suffering, win) Improved Drain Soul is, in my most humble opinion, not needed (**gasp** incoming flame sauce). I've now leveled two Warlocks past 45, on two different servers with vastly different populations. Almost exclusively...send Void in, DoT and wand. Maybe something changes in these higher levels, but I'm generally moving between mobs with over 80% mana. Warlock spells are surprisingly mana efficient (unlike a Shadow Priest for example where 5/5 Spirit Tap is a must for leveling). If I'm having a mana issue while questing (rare), I just Life Tap.

It was well discussed back on the old Nost forums. An update or a patch went in, and the Warlock forums lit up for days with this topic...everyone started complaining about their VW's not being able to hold aggro any longer.

I agree with others, VanillaGuide (the addon) is pretty sweet, and will cover both factions. If you're a new player and you want to keep your addon memory usage as low as possible, or if you're someone that prefers a pen/paper method (like me)...this archive site is what I've used: http://www.wow-pro.com/wowpro_archive From there you can find guides for specific races 1-12, and then those lead into more general guides, 20-30, 30-40 etc etc I've used Maw's human guides to 20, and then used Boston's Alliance guides 20-60 and they're fantastic. As a caster, your enemies will have a certain chance to resist your spells. A resisted spell still costs you its full mana, but it doesn't hit the mob...so you want to avoid that as much as possible. If you're fighting mobs that are higher level than you then the chance for them to resist goes up. Likewise, if you're fighting mobs that are lower level than you then the chance for them to resist goes down. Suppression reduces this resist chance across the board. In PvP, the hit cap is 5%, so taking 3/5 Suppression will cover you completely in PvP assuming you're engaging with players that are equal level to you. A good example of this is pretty much every Battleground where typically...people wait until the last level or two of each bracket to participate. So 18/19, 28/29, etc. In those brackets you cannot face opponents higher than 19, 29, 39..so anything beyond 3 points in Suppression is literally wasted. While you're just out questing or grinding mobs...3/5 Suppression is also sufficient enough assuming you're questing and/or grinding mobs that are green/yellow to you. You only really need more points in Suppression if you're somehow fighting orange mobs (3+ levels higher than you). That being said...there's nothing wrong with going 5/5 Suppression if you really think you need the safety net, but also know that it only affects your Affliction spells. So Immolate, Shadowbolt (neither of which you really use while questing anyway) or your #1 best friend ever...WANDS...are not affected at all. It'll help you in world PvP against higher level players, but regardless...don't expect to beat someone a few levels above you unless they're really bad or AFK. Regarding Curse of Agony..it's a very long DoT (24sec). It ticks every 3 secs (8 ticks total), but the ticks do low damage at first and then the damage increases on the last couple ticks, so generally...by the time you get to that point (18 seconds into the fight) the mob is dead, so you don't really get those harder hitting ticks. Your wands will outdamage CoA. This is why I personally never spec into Improved CoA because 3 talent points for 2/4/6% damage increase is awful. If it was 5/10/15% damage increase...well now we have something, but it's not. I generally put those 3 points (along with the 2 extra that you aren't putting into Suppression) and take 5/5 Fel Concentration. This pretty much allows you to "drain tank" with very little interruption. It's vastly useful in those 'oh фекал' moments and fantastic in PvP. Remember you can still cast CoA, nothing is stopping you...it'll just do it's regular damage but that's in addition to you being able to drain tank. None of this is required, as you can spec how you want. These are just my thoughts and something I think folks should consider if they're going to roll on the fresh realm with 5000+ players (yikes). The leveling build shown by the OP is a good raw PvE build and would work fine, I just lean a little more survival and less raw damage.

What WotF will remove (and make you immune to for the next 5sec)... Abilities that Charm: Priest Mind Control spell Engineers w/ Gnomish Mind Control Cap Warlock pet Succubus' Seduction skill Abilities that Sleep: Druid Hibernate spell Hunter Wyvern Sting spell Abilities that Fear: Priest Psychic Scream spell Warlock Fear and Howl of Terror spells (Death Coil is actually a "horrify" effect, not a fear) Warrior Intimidating Shout spell What the Orc racial will give you a 25% added resist chance to... Abilities that Stun: Druid: Bash (Bear Form), Pounce (Cat Form) Hunter: Intimidation (Talent), Improved Concussive Shot procs (Talent) Paladin: Hammer of Justice, Seal of Justice Priest Blackout procs (Talent) Rogue: Kidney Shot, Cheap Shot Tauren War Stomp racial (as Horde this would only matter in duels) Warlock Pyroclasm procs (Talent) Warrior: Charge, Intercept Note that any damage caused to you while charmed or sleeped will immediately remove the effect, so these effects are 100% to simply shut you down for whatever duration of the spell. While feared...you can generally still take damage, but it's usually broken by direct/burst type of damage. Stuns on the other hand...your enemies can wail away at you with everything they have and it will not break. Undead extra underwater breathing is useless because as a Warlock you already have a 10min buff that makes you breathe underwater. Cannibalize is nice for the reasons mentioned above, but like First Aid any damage caused will remove it. Orc pet damage is nice for your voidwalker while leveling, but that's really about it. It's basically Orc stun resist vs. WotF/Cannibalize. And this really only matters if you think you're going to be a super tryhard min/max person. If you have any amount of personal life...then forget about min/maxing (just being frank with you). Pick what you think looks best to you.

Joana's leveling guide is horde only. Also just some thoughts... If you're leveling efficiently, then you shouldn't be fighting mobs 3+ levels above you, and thus 3/5 Suppression is all that is needed. 5/5 is for end-game raiding. Spend those 2 points elsewhere. Improved CoA is a waste of 3 talent points in virtually every build unless you're somehow the lucky warlock that gets to use it in raiding once 16 debuff slots are available, and even then it's iffy. 3 points for 6% damage on a DoT that requires it's full duration (24sec) for that benefit to even matter is really silly while leveling considering this is the last DoT you should ever be using. If you use it situationally, just amplify it. Or just use a different curse. Outside of that your spec is the typical PvE cookie cutter. It works, it's proven...but anyone rolling on the fresh PvP server should consider a few other talents such as Fel Concentration, Curse of Exhaustion and/or Master Summoner. In my humble opinion these are really good talents that increase your chances to survive without really giving up any damage. Basically every zone from level 25 and up is going to be a PvP candy land or nightmare depending on how you look at it.

I'd also like to point out that anyone choosing to roll on the fresh PvP server will simply not be getting all those wands at those minimum levels unless you are extremely lucky. There won't be anything on the Auction House. The Lesser Magic Wand and Greater Magic Wand requires an Enchanter with skill 10 and 70 (respectively) to craft. If you're rolling Enchanting yourself...great..but on a fresh server you'll most certainly want to save that precious silver for your skills. It's pretty much normal that you don't even see 1g until about level 15 or so if you're vendoring EVERYTHING, something you won't be doing if you're DE'ing greens. Good luck hitting Enchanting skill 70 before level 30 (I'm serious). It's a good guide, and the way I'd go on an established server for sure, but anyone rolling on the fresh PvP server within the 1st month of it's launch or so needs to consider its economy and how that might affect their leveling. 7 in Shadow for Tap + Imp SWP and then bolting down holy to Searing Light is a pretty solid choice under the circumstances. Most folks won't get Gravestone until level 26ish under a normal BFD run.

Ok that makes senses, thanks for the quick reply. I did read that VW's have their own sacrifice ability, I forgot about that. And if your going to sac your VW in a PvP situation...then any points spent in Master Demonologist are wasted. What's the general consensus on Fel Intellect vs Fel Stamina? Seems to me that neither matter end game seeing as you'll either have your Imp phased out or your Succubus sacrificed. So these talents are really only useful during the leveling journey, but just as filler? Seems like Fel Intellect would be the better choice if you are primarily using your Imp or Succubus, but Fel Stamina would be more beneficial if you are using your VW or Felhunter to be a little extra tanky?

Hi Everyone, Apologies beforehand for the long post! I am planning to level a Warlock on the fresh PvP server. My concern is how leveling is going to be on the fresh PvP server once into those neutral zones and beyond. I'm fully expecting it to be one giant gank fest all the way to level 60, with zones like Hillsbrad, STV and Searing Gorge so bad that they may be unplayable for large portions of the day. I've read through the first 5 pages of the old sticky on the Nostalrius forum: http://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=14455 That guide however is prefaced with a disclaimer: "The following is a PURE PvE leveling spec, focusing on quests and mob grinding." So...I'm looking for some feedback. I've been toying around with the talent calc and have been trying to devise a more suitable leveling spec that favors some survivability and PvP. I generally don't gank other players, and I don't really seek out world PvP, but that isn't going to stop other people from starting fights with me. I'm not concerned with min/maxing for damage while leveling, or being the most uber mana efficient. I get that these things generally speed up leveling, but if I'm dead because of world PvP then it kind of becomes moot yeah? So I'm stuck here: http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#IA0bZbxhz I understand that I need to work down toward Siphon Life, but I don't know where to go from here? Does a talent like Fel Concentration start to have value? Improved Drain Life? And then in Demo...does Master Demonologist have any value while leveling? Again I'm trying to shift my mentality toward "fresh PvP server", in my head I'm picturing having my VW out and getting ganked...that 10% reduction seems pretty good if it helps me get my bearings, apply dots, and start to defend myself. On a fresh PvP server with 5000+ players...corpse walks are coming. Alot. I get this. But if I can mitigate some of them by choosing the right talents while leveling...I'm all for that.