Omgdontdie

Anyone who knows me in game knows that Ironfoe is my baby. You would also know that I have garbage luck when it comes to getting new weapons. Because of this, I was pretty much looking for any reason to justify using the hammer over any other weapon, so I did some digging and testing. This is what I found... - The Elysium database (SQL file available on github) has Ironfoe's ppm at 1.5, ie 6% proc chance. 15494 is the spell id, 1.5 is the ppm, -1 shows no cool down. I tested this extensively with a sample size of 2000+ auto attacks (hits/crits/blocks only), no HOJ, hit capped, no dual wield, white hits only, and got a proc chance of 5.4% with a 95% confidence interval of about 1. A 6% proc rate seems realistic. - Extra attack procs cannot proc extra attack procs. Other similar code snippets appear all over the place. During all of my testing I never saw a "chain-proc." Its probably safe to assume that proc like HOJ and Thrash Blade also fit under this category. Most people already know this. - Sunder Armor does not proc Ironfoe (havent tested with other chance-on-hit items) After running ZG today, I noticed my Ironfoe procs were very low considering I was getting over 5% proc rates during tests the same day. I tested Ironfoe using only sunder armor (pooled rage, and canceled auto attacks before and after casting sunders). While using only sunder (no white hits went through), I got zero procs after about 200 sunders. Bad luck can be eliminated as a factor with this sample size and explains the weapon's poor performance in ZG. This is a huge detriment for tanks using Ironfoe for TPS since it is your most used ability. Since sunder armor requires a weapon, this is likely due to the fact that it deals no damage and is probably a bug. -Bloodthirst does not proc Ironfoe (havent tested with other chance-on-hit items) Same as Sunder Armor, but I only gathered a sample size of about 70. Extremely small chance that this was just bad luck assuming even a 5% proc rate, but this actually makes sense since Bloodthrist doesn't require a weapon to cast. - Hamstring procs Ironfoe confirmed. - Whirlwind procs Ironfoe confirmed. - HS, Cleave, Execute, and Overpower probably proc Ironfoe based on intuition and experience, but yet to be tested. Conclusion: Nothing too new in the grand scheme of things. The proc rate is probably higher than we expected, but also doesn't proc off of all of our yellow hits. As fury, Ironfoe is still pretty good but are probably outclassed by BWL weapons (until maybe Anubisath Warhammer for humans/dwarves). As a tank, Sunder Armor not procing Ironfoe discounts its value, and is probably a bug (need proof on whether sunder procs chance-on-hit in retail).

A friend of mine said IF is now procing off SA on the PTR, so hopefully that fix goes live next dev update. Fingers crossed?

Tested the new fixes. BT and Execute seem to work, but Sunder still doesnt. Could have to do with the fact that doesnt deal damage, or I might have written the conditional wrong. Ill look into it later.

I think you are right, but it kind of depends on the situation. I think for single target CTS+Mala+Flameguard pulls ahead, but once you start cleaving I don't think anything outperforms R14. Either way, if you have any of those 4 combinations you are in a really good spot and the difference is only a matter of a few dps.

In terms of threat, Agrillos is probably right, but 1% parry is nice too. From my experience Mala usually goes to dps first since it is BIS and tanks have other options, but if you already have it its still a great tanking sword.

CTS+Mala+Flameguard will outperform Viskag+CTS+Edgemasters If you really want to tryhard, 2xR14+Edgemasters and IF+CTS+Flameguard(after the fix) should also outperform Viskag+CTS+Edgemasters.

Keep in mind, when I said that some yellows are not affected by weapon skill, i've only experienced this with execute. Sunder required a weapon, so it may very well be affected by weapon skill, I just haven't taken the time to test it. What I do know is that currently, until the next dev build is pushed to live, sunder doesnt trigger main hand weapons, but that is likely due to the fact it doesnt deal damage rather than anything with weapons.

Ive noticed that weapon skill doesnt affect some yellows in the same way. For example, ive had over 9% hit after weapon skill and missed an execute. For the same reason they dont proc main hand weapon hits, id expect that shield slam, sunder, bloodthirst, and execute are not affected by weapon skill. Only evidence I have is for execute tho, so can't really prove the other ones w/o more testing. Also, in response to Ragward - according to the Ely source code, you actually gain a lot of +hit from 300->305 skill against bosses here. 305 weapon skill on this server is a big deal, intentional or not. It also slightly reduces chances of your target block/dodge/parrying your attacks, which is increasingly relevant for tanks since you always attack from the front.

Niri, made some estimates regarding AP breakpoints for IF vs Crul if you are interested.

Now that I'm curious as to what the actual AP break point is to make IF>Crul, for the sake of satisfying my own curiosity, here is how we would break it down using a similar approach to Undertanker: In one minute, we have 25 autos and 30 spells that can trigger Ironfoe. This gives us 2.75ppm(5.5 extra swings) and 3.3ppm(6.6 extra swings) at 5% and 6% respectively. Given that we have 25 autos w/o any procs, 5.5 extra swings from a 5% proc rate is a (25+5.5)/25=1.22=22% increase in damage. Similarly, 6.6 extra swings from a 6% proc rate is a (25+6.6)/25=1.264=26.4% increase in damage. Applying this to IF's base damage only, we get a base dps of 43.5*1.22=53.07 and 43.5*1.264=54.98 at 5% and 6% respectively, without accounting for AP. We already know that the value of Crul's dps is 62.8+(36/14)=65.37. [62.8 base damage + (36/14) damage from AP] This leaves a deficit of 65.37-53.07=12.3dps and 65.37-54.98=10.39dps that needs to be made up by AP at 5% and 6% respectively. To work this out backwards, we simply use the AP formula and multiply it by IF's damage modifier. We get (AP/14)*0.22=12.3 and (AP/14)*0.264=10.39 at 5% and 6% respectively. Solving with basic algebra, we get the following breakpoints... At a 5% proc rate, IF>Crul @ 783 AP. At a 6% proc rate, IF>Crul @ 551 AP. Note: these break points are BEFORE we account for weapon skill. Given these values though, even orcs might prefer IF>Crul with BWL gear and buffs. As always, if any of you fellow nerds/warriors find anything wrong, let me know!

Vilius, you did the math that I was too lazy to do. Those numbers look very realistic. Currently, QS is a bit under tuned because sunder isn;t proccing weapons, but it should be getting a sizable buff after the next dev update (assuming the fix works).

While I disagree about the break point being 1k ap, the TLDR is the same. Both are great for threat, and Crul gives you some extra suitability at the cost of some TPS.

Classic forum reaction for when you run out of rational responses. On a more related note though, definitely keep the posts coming if you have relevant information that checks out. At the very least, I learned something today from digging up the rage formulas again.

Since your math seems to be all over the place, I'll try to distill this down to as simple terms as possible. In 1 minute: 40GCDs = 10 Shield Slams and 30 revenge/sunders, 60/2.4 = 25 autos. (30+25)*0.05 = 2.75 ppm. (Note: The proc rate is likely closer to 6%) Assume: 750AP (minimum, given a buffed BWL tank). All else equal between weapons (no armor, hit capped, no block/dodge/parry/glancing) Ironfoe's average hit: (750/14+43.5)*2.4=232.97 damage 2.75 procs in a minute implies 2.75*232.97*2/60=21.3 dps just from the proc. [(#procs)*(Damage)*(2 Swings)/(60 seconds)] Ironfoe's base damage is 43.5 dps. The value of the proc is 21.3 dps. 21.3+43.5=64.8 dps. Keep in mind this is the most CONSERVATIVE estimate for a BWL tank. Let us now assume 1000AP. Ironfoe's average hit: (1000/14+43.5)*2.4=275.8 damage 2.75 procs in a minute implies 2.75*275.8*2/60=25.3 dps just from the proc. [(#procs)*(Damage)*(2 Swings)/(60 seconds)] Ironfoe's base damage is 43.5 dps. The value of the proc is 25.3 dps. 25.3+43.5=68.8 dps. Now if we look at Crul, we only really have to consider two things. Base damage and attack power. Let me do that for you too. Crul's base damage is 62.8. The 36 attack power from Crul is equivalent to 36/14=65.4 dps. Edit: fixed a minor typo

You forgot to include Ironfoe's base weapon damage when calculating proc dps. The value from the proc is (50+43.5)*31.2% if we do it your way. Also, your 31.2% number is inflated because Shield Slam doesn't trigger main hand weapons here.

I'm just trying to help you to get more accurate numbers and correct false information. Calculating buff uptime isn't as simple as taking a mean. In regards to dodge/miss/parry, let us revisit my comment... Here is some entry level statistics relevant to proc uptime: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisson_distribution

Shield slam does not trigger main hands here and procs can overlap. Lets assume you are using an ability for every global, since you should be in a raid setting. Every minute, you will do about 10 shield slams, the rest will be revenge or sunder. Every minute you have 30 special attacks and 30 auto attacks that can proc. At 1.75 ppm, its clearly follows that the expected number of procs per minute is 3.5. If we assume that the proc NEVER overlap, that is still 35 seconds of uptime. If we consider that there is a 5%(I think?) base chance to be dodged and parried, this number becomes increasingly closer to 30. If you are not hit capped (many tanks are not) the value is diminished a bit more. Sure there are other factors, like parry haste, but the fine details aside, lets just go with 35secs. Keep in mind that it is pretty common for procs to overlap (again, poisson distribution), so your expected uptime will be closer to 50% at best. You would have to be incredibly lucky to achieve 66% uptime.

That is not true. If you look at my post on the last page, im only considering attack power when estimating the value of the proc. Attack power affects both weapons in similar ways, however Ironfoe's proc is what makes the weapon scale better than the others. Copy paste from a similar post to clarify...

The reason that this doesn't work is because Ironfoe doesn't scale at the same rate as other weapons from attack power. The proc becomes increasingly powerful as you gain attack power. Let me break this down into a hypothetical example... Situation 1: Ironfoe has 1 base dps, and item X has 100 base dps. You have 0 attack power. Clearly we see that item X is superior to Ironfoe, since the proc can't make up for the loss of base damage. Situation 2: Ironfoe has 1 base dps, and item X has 100 base dps. This time, you have 100000 attack power. Clearly we see that base weapon damage is barely relevant, and a 5-6% chance to grant two extra swings easily makes up for any loss of base damage.

Removing variations from attack power doesn't work with "extra-attack" weapons like Ironfoe. Refer to one of my comments on my thread on page-2ish. TLDR; Ironfoe outperforms Crul for pure TPS.

There is a huge flaw in your calculation when you try to take out variations of AP. The whole reason that Ironfoe is such a great weapon is that it scales incredibly well with attack power. If you look at my simple estimate a few posts earlier, if you take AP into account (even under sub-optimal raid conditions), Ironfoe begins to pull way ahead. Even with the most conservative AP estimates you get a weapon that exceeds Crul.

However, that being said, given that Ironfoe has the highest expected dps under the most conservative raid conditions, it still holds that Ironfoe will outperform any other weapon (beside Thunderfury ofc) in terms of TPS in pre-AQ content. The only exception might be if you are an Orc using Crul.

Idk what your sources are, but that is not the rage gain formula. I can pull it up for you when I finish this 5-man Edit: Ahh, looks like you were right about rage gain on Elysium. The Nostalrius code used different formulas that has a seperate component based on weapon speed. For the record, below is the rage gain formula on Elysium...

@Undertanker There are two components to rage gain. There is a component based on a hit landing based on weapon speed (different rage values for a hit and crit) and there is a component based on damage done. Also, I didn't find the post you made about any math regarding Ironfoe. If you would like to post it here, I'd love to proofread it. Who knows, maybe I missed something.

Also, an aside regarding weapon skill and hit. Ive noticed that even with 7-8% hit, and therefore 9%+ hit after accounting for weapon skill, ive missed executes (about 1% miss). There are 2 components to execute, a component that check if you have rage, have a weapon, are in range, etc... and a component that deals the damage. Currently Execute does not trigger main hand procs. This leads me to believe that Execute's damage component is not affected by weapon skill, so therefore it is always beneficial to have 9% hit if possible, regardless if your weapon skill.