Yojoo

As the list gets more populated, it might be helpful to only bother keeping track of the names within one's own faction.

Honestly yeah, the way I've always played the game would dictate that I'd pass a mage tome to the mage, despite its value. I'd make damn sure he used it right away, though. Look, I see the logic of everybody rolling need on BoEs, I just can't agree with it. It's contrary to the etiquette that was always used in my presence the entire time I played retail, minus cross-realm PUGs. Cross-real PUGs don't exist on Elysium, obviously. So, what are we to do? These are yet the early days of this server. Assuming it sticks around, I'd prefer it to be a server where mutual gear improvement is still the primary goal of instances, PUG or otherwise, and where we're willing to let others get the gear they need ahead of our own desire to make money. I won't bullshit you all by claiming I know what the common opinion is on this server, but my strong guess would be that most people feel the same. I've had several BoEs drop in my brief time on Elysium, and my PUGs have always allowed priority to go to the person for whom the item is an actual gear upgrade, and that's without any prior discussion of loot rules. Edit: Didn't mean to ignore the backpack. My point was this: Gear DOES have relative value, because a warrior tank looking to raid utilizes those Pauldrons while a mage does not. Backpacks are truly universal. As are things like rare mount, pets, and other non-combat items. When it comes to actual gear, the system has always been to prioritize people that will equip and use those items.

BoEs being FFA in pugs was never my experience, playing on and off from 2005 to about 2012. Traveler's Backpack isn't a gear upgrade. Edit: Except in cross-realm PUGs, where people assumed that they'd never see the other players again. That shit was the wild west. Do we want Elysium to be the wild west? I thought part of the appeal of playing on one of these private servers was to recapture the spirit of community that WoW kinda lost over time. Placing your own wallet over your Pugmate's upgrade seems like it's contrary to that goal.

I didn't play enough Vanilla back in the day to run into Pristine Hide drama, but from what I recall (feel free to correct me), it was always a unique case without a good answer. It was a one-of-a-kind item requiring ten people to get it, yet only the skinner was able to physically produce it, so there were always huge arguments over proper etiquette in how to handle looting it. I don't think a good answer ever arose. Simple need-before-greed on BoEs was another matter, though. That's been "solved" for a decade.

It's pretty clear from the screenshots that the other two players rolled need after Beerwizzard did, with the intent to give it to Mokes if they won. They were trying to prevent a ninja loot situation. Unsuccessfully.

How is this not factual? It's a definition. "Ninja looter" has had a consistent definition for as long as this game has been around, and while WoW was the first MMO I personally played, I imagine that the approximate definition extends even into the history of Everquest and other older MMOs. This thread is full of wishy-washy justifications for denying people gear upgrades. Gear upgrades have always been the primary goal of instance runs in WoW, and the Need vs. Greed system as defined by Wowwiki is in service to gear upgrades.

I attempted to address the "equal value" argument in my previous post, feel free to weigh in. But regarding my WoWWiki point: WoWWiki, as far as I know, was among the most consistent source of WoW info for the twelve years this game has existed. Being a Wiki, it has been open to input from the community that entire time. Yet, when I consulted the history of the page, I found NO mention of debate regarding using Need on items that the individual was not going to equip. I don't understand how you could ignore that as evidence, because it surely seems damning to me.

Your proof being your own logic is pretty flaky, and frankly, it's not logically consistent. See, value is relative. It's a basic economic reality (I only took a handful of econ classes in college, so feel free to condemn my use of terminology, but my point should stand). The value of a given item is ABSOLUTELY DIFFERENT between different individuals, regardless of what the posted price for it at the Auction House may be. In game example: Stockade Pauldrons seem to be on the AH for roughly 450g at the moment. For Beerwizzard, they are, in fact, worth LESS than 450g. 450g is going to be the MOST he will ever get, in money, from selling that item. He's losing money every day from AH fees, and time out of the day spent managing auctions or asking around in Trade chat. If he can't move the item over a long span of time, it could become obsolete as new content comes out, slashing its value. Meanwhile, for Mokes, the Pauldrons are worth MORE than 450g. They are worth more for ANYBODY wanting to use it. Otherwise, why they hell would they spend their money on it? Any purchase is an investment, and any investment is not worthwhile unless a greater return is expected. Mokes will gain more than 450g worth of an upgrade immediately by using those pauldrons, as would any plate tank for whom they are an upgrade. Janky pseudo real-life example: You and I embark on an adventure for profit. It is understood that anything we find will be given to the individual for whom it is a "need". I'm a family man, and I drive a shitty sedan. You're a bachelor, and you drive an old sports car. We find a sweet minivan. One would reasonably expect that the value of a minivan for me, being the family man, drastically outweighs the value for you. Similarly, if we found a nice car for picking up women, I'd happily give you first dibs. BoE items do NOT hold equal value for everybody. It's literally impossible for them to do so, since value is RELATIVE. Logically and traditionally, the value of an upgrade in gear is always the highest value an item can hold for a WoW character.

What's your standard of proof? My personal experience (not proof, of course) is that "Need" is reserved for those that will actually equip the item. Wowwiki's definition (pretty close to proof) is the same: "Need" is for upgrades. We can fruitlessly debate the concept of "need" in terms of video game items all day, but ultimately the best indicator is the way the community as a whole has always handled this. And the community doesn't handle it the way you do.

You may subscribe to that logic, but it's at odds with the design of the need/greed loot system as well as the accepted looting practices throughout the history of this game. You are, of course, welcome to act in that manner, but your "victims" are welcome to react accordingly, such as by making threads like these. Wowwiki's first definition of "Loot ninja" is: A player who, when in a group, rolls "Need" on everything regardless of if he or she can use it. The site also clarifies the uses of Need vs. Greed: Need: Mouse over the picture of the item to see its characteristics, and if you want to take it to use, click the pair-of-dice button to randomly generate a number from 1 to 100. This is a 'need' roll and the item should be an upgrade for you. If it is an upgrade for your offspec (e.g. healing plate for a tanking paladin), it's generally okay to click Need, but only if no one else needs the item for their main spec. Warning: If you 'need' every drop, you will likely be branded a ninja and have trouble finding groups. Greed: If you want it to sell, send to an alt, etc., click the coin button for a "greed" roll. This will only result in a roll if no one chooses need. Argue against this common knowledge if you wish, but don't act like yours is the way it's always been. It isn't.

I'm pretty baffled that this is such a long discussion. In my experience of playing retail from Vanilla through Cataclysm, I can say that the default loot system is this: Need if you're going to equip it, Greed if you're going to sell or otherwise profit monetarily from it, or Pass if you have no interest. I virtually never needed to discuss this ahead of time, it was just known and understood. The few times I had people act contrarily to this system, they knew that they were being ninjas. They'd need roll a BoE blue or epic that they had no intention of equipping, ignore the rest of the party, and hearth out immediately. Before this thread, I've honestly never seen anything like a mage attempt to justify his logic of need-rolling a plate BoE item over party members that could actually equip it. Beerwizzard, you're quite eloquent in justifying your greed, but at the end of the day, you ARE a ninja. I'm glad I'm not in your faction.