Swiftdeus

Still would be worthwhile to implement this 5-8 weeks from the first week of ZG when people hit Exalted and everyone goes back to Raid Logging... hopefully they don't miss out on this opportunity. It would just be really sad to see this server have no PvP relevance for the entirety of its lifetime.

14000 Views 385 Replies and several completely dodged questions when it comes to PVP Updates in the suggestion forum alone.... Why can't the Staff have a dialog with their players? It doesn't take that many brain cells to know this is a good idea, what will it take to convince you guys? What are your concerns? Think of the benefits! Seriously...

Common Elysium, don't miss this opportunity! Make it 8 Weeks after ZG Release even when no one cares about the content anymore.

@TheGrand I was about to ask the same thing! Are there patch notes ready to be released on this patch? ZG Bijou Farm Nerf? PVP Gear Update?

Alliance

Marks lasted 30 days on retail, that is Blizzlike. Elysium reduced the duration mail would stay in you mailbox (Non-Blizzlike / GOOD CHANGE), but it was bugged so marks would still stay in you mail for 30 days (So Blizzlike). Now Elysium has fixed their bug and marks only stay a short period in the mailbox as designed (Non-Blizzlike / GOOD CHANGE). The argument is, if we can stray away from Blizzlike with bosses, talents, farming spots, mailbox, why do we have to keep the gear HORRIBLE? And I mean really horrible for anyone time investment for pvp; you can get full pre-bis in a week in dungeons... but after a month of PvP you have nothing to show for it. The gear is worse in most cases than the dungeon gear you can aquire so quickly. The updated gear can be on par with MC gear, more or less, but it completely time gated so people can't just pick up 5 friends play for an hour and get gear. I don't see the reasoning of the Elysium Staff to not make this change when it has so many positive things associated with it, honestly I don't see any negatives because a perfectly Blizzlike is non-realistic, make this change so people actually PvP on your server, not the account sellers.

@donkey Just saw patch notes about expired mail... no more "Mark Bombing". That's a non blizzlike change that is good for the community, pretty much aligns with this change to make PvP gear again.

This is by far the most requested change on this server. Just arrange the suggestion forum by replies and its the 5 of the top 10 things listed! Listen to your player base. Do not miss out on this opportunity!

@Quasexort, I never said people wouldn't do MC when AQ is out. " that is like saying no one is going to raid Molten Core because Naxxramas is coming out", essentially was saying that there will always be better gear that will be released next patch, that doesn't mean you don't collect the best gear available to you right now. Yes, obviously Molten Core is going no where. When you say "I don’t see how you can compare going for rank 13 when AQ is out to doing MC when AQ is out.", I believe the forum topic is to upgrade the blue gear (although I do admit it would be kind of awkward if the blue gear was better than the epic gear). I agree that PvP may die down as of the AQ release, but that wont stop people from getting their alts into BGs for Gear and Mounts, especially the raid loggers. I think by saying "You guys believe the only way to make pvp alive and active is to give gear incentives but those incentives don’t really matter when AQ comes out so in your eyes pvp dies with AQ regardless of whether or not they update the gear.", you have skipped the entire argument. It is like saying you wont do dungeons when AQ is out. That may or may not be the case. As for your comment on decreasing the respec cost, I don't know that I necessarily disagree. It could make pvp more viable for some, it wouldn't inflate the economy that much, it would really make Elysium shy away from blizzlike... but it already has so... I'd be okay with a test period on this. @Quasexort, You are absolutely right, we don't know if adding PvP gear will make the PvP scene better on Elysium. When it was implemented on Nostralius early it increased the amount of people PvPing substantially and people agreed it was a good change. That aside, if not now when? Between 1.6-1.9 Is the only reasonable time to make this change, otherwise Elysium misses out on this opportunity.

@quasexort Your argument stating "How would upgrading pvp gear now have any impact on pvp being alive or dead when AQ comes out." followed by "...no one is going to rank for the armor if they can do AQ and get t2.5 way easier...", that is like saying no one is going to raid Molten Core because Naxxramas is coming out. You are absolutely on the money though when you said no one will rank when AQ is out, that is the "Dead" PvP reality. The argument people are making is to give the upgraded PvP gear while it is semi competitive, otherwise it will always be junk. The type of people on this server for the most part are Min/Maxers, some willing to go further than others. The situation Jerome is talking about is this: You start on a Fresh server and you need to get Pre-BiS ready, Molten Core comes out and you have to get BWL Ready, BWL comes out and you have to get AQ Ready, ZG comes out to fill in those niche gear pieces you want for AQ .... now wait 6-8 months with no reason to log in (other than to raid log), AQ comes out got to get ready for Naxx, Then Naxx and PVP gear updates(which are MC quality mostly). People don't want MC loot level gear when they are raiding Naxx. Jerome is arguing people will get what they need out of ZG quickly and then go back to raid logging during that 6-8 month content drought, but PVP being time gated (meaning you can only get so far in a week), would get more people who Min/Max involved in PvP over those months. Also, having that PvP available during 1.7 would make the Dragons of Nightmare patch (1.8) so much more exciting because people would be ready for battle! The skills people gain from actively doing battlegrounds is good for the community! I personally think they want to go into PvP now, regardless of updated gear, but the PVP culture right now is extremely hostile. Only by incentivizing PvP with reasonable gear will there be enough players simultaneously joining into battlegrounds to cause a PvP boom in our community.

@Haestingas I feel like you're fighting both sides of the argument. "Oh they are totally invested in increasing pvp activity. But it's increasing PvP by the masses, not the premade community." "Jerome you are such a cancer player, NO REASON TO PVP BECAUSE MAH ITEMS?" I just would have though you would have been be happy with a little of both worlds. Force people into the 3 man groups while giving them gear to play for. Do you think destroying premades alone would be enough to encourage pvp? I understand the thought process behind the respec cut, but breaking premades only forces them to queue differently, it doesn't bring in a flood of people. Again, there is a 6 Month (At least) content drought after ZG is released, a time where this PvP gear is for the most part on par with other gear. Would this not be the best time into incentivize it? Adding another avenue for people to gear up before AQ comes out is such a good way to keep people invested in Elysium, you want to give people as many avenues to gear up as possible so they don't feel like joining the server so late is TOO late. I think overall we're on the same page, what can we do to increase PvP activity? I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this Haestingas.

I support anything that promotes increased PVP, but I think this argument is not as strong as the upgrade blue gear gear, as beautiful as those Warsong leggings are. The whole point of the Upgrade Blue Set argument is that you're not getting anything outrageously BiS; Instead you motivate the people who would like to PvP, but don't see a point in actively doing BGs because the currently PvP rewards are shit. The upgraded PvP gear is generally on par gear with what has currently been released, or at least the same as current dungeon blues. It gives you ways to itemize, but you're going to wear BWL gear if you can get it. The Warsong leggings are better or on par with AQ gear so that kind of breaks the argument they should be released before then, not that I don't agree they are awesome for warriors. The argument that you make for Time VS Reward is completely valid, hopefully the administration show the community that their servers are not just for raid logging.

I'd like to see a real discussion between the community and the administration about this. The support for this is overwhelming!

@haestingas How would you make PvP Great again? How can you motivate new players or players who have never pvped before to increase their skill set in ways they have ever experienced? I'm asking honestly. I enjoy Vanilla PvP so much I want everyone to do it... but Vanilla is all about Min/Maxing and I think this is honestly a great solution, it worked out amazing on Nost. I would hate for people to miss out on a great vanilla experience by just raid logging for months on end.

@Slacker, People have already analyzed the gear differences: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s9CLO31HDTjs2qPAn2FILB1dulLm1kup3G5Ih-Wrorg/edit The benefits are marginal at best. Please understand the correlation between something worth playing for and something that is not. Playing for gear that isn't shit, but isn't best, may be a good investment for some. Playing 1000 hours for no benefit is dumb.... hence why the PvP community is the way it is.

@Justme, Hey Justme, thank you for your question. From my experience people whom I have played with (obviously this doesn't pertain to everyone), that have completed ranking, are pretty hardcore vanilla PvP fans . We absolutely invite them to continue playing with our premades when spots are available and they generally are excited to join us; they just dont play the stupid hours like they used to. There are the people who PvP regardless of gear rewards as well, me included, you won't see them raiding in their PvP sets because most of the gear is bad and only a select few pieces are even worth wearing. "Now what's the point of pvp gear if you're not gonna pvp with it?" People will absolutely PvP in their PvP gear if the gear is worth wearing. Currently the most blue pvp sets/pieces are not even on par with dungeon blues, the people who wear the blue sets don't really have an avenue to get raid/dungeon gear because if they did they would be wearing tier(or maybe they don't like the dungeon grind). I think that upgrading the blue set would absolutely make it seen around battlegrounds more, even though it can be worse than tier gear because the PvP Sets generally have higher stamina. Anyone who goes to R12+ will go back in BGs guaranteed, even if the gear is horrible. You wont see them wearing it it always (at the moment its kind of like transmog for a lot of classes)... but one does not just PvP ONLY for the gear... you have to love this if you're going to make it and Rankers will never completely leave.

@Silverlan, First off, thank you for putting in effort into your reply, it was refreshing to read something that actually had effort put into it. I would just like to debate some of your points. "If people are not pvping now for "fun" i doubt people will start pvping for "gear" - and if they do it won't be sustainable" I would disagree with you on this point. I think gear is a great motivator for any Min/Maxer. It took me about 6 Weeks to go from Rank 4 to Rank 10, is that sustainable? I'm not sure, that would depend on the number of people joining the server and leave it. I do believe that overall more people would enter BGs over the 8-month or 6-month content drought if they actually were rewarded. I personally think incentivising PvP will bring in more player into BGs, people who have never touched a BG before because there are no rewards. Rewards may even be enough to increase the skill cap of the average player because they have put in so many more hours instead of raid logging. "this won't bring people back to the server" I think you may be largely correct on this one, but I'd like to address the fact that upgrading the gear will not make people leave the server. From the mindset of "What can we do to make people stay" I personally don't think that more content makes people leave faster, if anything, people will stay longer. "Updating pvp gear early does create a gear imbalance both in pvp and pve." A gear comparison can be seen here for reference: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s9CLO31HDTjs2qPAn2FILB1dulLm1kup3G5Ih-Wrorg/edit Most of the gear you are generally referring to is on par with what has already been released with a few upgrades and downgrades. The point you really wanted to make: " top tier warriors like Monkeynews were using updated pvp gear in raids like BWL and used it to push the meters" What you are referring to here is already in the game. HWL/GM weapons are above BWL teir for rogues and warriors. Overall on the gear comment though, and it has been expressed multiple times, is that people who PvP put in way more hours then PvEers, I think it is only fair they get something comparable at the end. If the gear isn't updated before AQ, then it will NEVER be comparable. "The argument that they have already made none blizzlike changes so they can do another is idiotic." "Blizzlike" is bullshit. No private server has the ability to provide this, nor would one want to. I played Vanilla and there are a bunch of quality of life changes made on Elysium that benefit the server, although not being "Blizzlike". It cannot be obtained, every private server can at best revert server side code, but the client will always be 1.12.1. Out of all things balanced, the PVP gear was implemented near the end of the expansion, it is aligned with the talents and ability coefficients. There are items out there that are completely broken, Bone Reavers Edge, Thunderfury, because they had gone through revision near the end of the expansion and are currently in an earlier patch. There is so much to put in the section of "Blizzlike", but I will get to my point. Quality of life changes for the server are good, I think this quality of life change would only benefit the server. "imo it is a gear grab for people who want a short term reward." From a gear grab perspective, there are only a handful of people that would have their gear upgraded. These people may already have upgraded HWL/GM Weapons. Their upgraded gear for the most part would be side grades. The new blue gear has a different item ID, which means ex rankers would have to rank again. The vendor gear from Arathi Basin that will be released with ZG will be of greater value in most cases. What we are really trying to push here is increase PvP activity so they developers don't make an even more "Un-Blizzlike" changes, like destroying Premade groups. "You all seem to argue that they did it on Nost so they can do it here but forgot the fact they learnt from this mistake." I never played on Nost, but from the research I have done on this topic I have read of Ex-Nost Developers saying Small Group Battlegrounds is a horrible idea and was quickly reverted (it was tested on Nost). I have also read the the pvp gear upgrade was well received. What I havn't read were any reviews from Nost Devs that upgrading gear early hurt the project, it only appears to have benefited it. Looking forward to your reply :)

@Tribe2 Agreed, I think it went without saying that both sets need to be upgraded... having the updated blue gear become better than the current epic gear is kind of ridiculous.

I wanted to touch on a few points that I don't believe have been brought up that are important. 1. ZG - > AQ Timeline - 6 Months and BWL - > AQ 8 Months. We are 7 weeks into BWL at this point and I have seen in my guild a decline in activity. I have seen a few people starting alts, but overall a decrease in online time. I think that because the time from ZG to AQ will be such a content drought, updating the PvP gear will help the community by giving new goals to people. 2. Seeing the Premade changes on Anathema is bringing some light to underlying issues about PvP. Without any incentive, I believe only the truly dedicated PvPers are constantly playing. I can see the average playing being turned off by getting crushed over and over by premades, but I do not think disbanding premades is the solution. Giving gear incentives will increase the overall BG population, this will lower the chance for Pugs to face premades which is what the developers want without destroying the PvP community. (Case Study Nostralus Premade Breaker Change -- Reverted after 2 Weeks) 3. Economy Boost! - Overall the trades economy will benefit from the PvP Gear Upgrades, New gear to enchant, more consumables sold, more herbs picked. Anyone who has been in a serious premade knows that consumables gives you an edge in battlegrounds, this change would even help players who are not interested in PvPing by filling their pockets!

I feel like premades are a necessary evil; without premades people hoping to obtain high ranks must put in more time. This reduces the "Skillcap" and essentially makes it a time game. Whoever can put in the most time will get the titles. This of course may lead players to AFK, Bot, Accountshare where the benefit of any of these things before would only be marginal, but without premades they would be optimal. So now we have 3 larger problems rather than one. So that seems like a poor solution. A different solution would be what I thought you were trying to do originally with the reduction in respec price cap, which was to help incentive PvP. If you were to release the PVP upgrades early(There are lots of posts about this and it is what Nost did), you would have many people enter battleground that have never been in them before. You would create a reason for people to make friends and group up against each other. Dilute the PvP system with an influx of players, so many that if your pug vs a premade, people wouldn't cry because it's a 1/10 chance instead of 4/5 like it feels like currently.

@tribe and @Haestingas, please stay on topic. We're not here to fight each other, we're all trying to promote a reasonable timeline for pvp gear to be released. I think the hard part is that the developers don't play their own game so they don't understand our concerns. There may be a few that raid log, but none of them PvP so they don't see any issue with their system currently. Reguardless, many players who are active in the PvP community would support the Elysium staff reviewing this issue thoroughly and hopefully find a timeline that would not make our efforts trivial. 1.7 would be amazing, 1.9 would still be good, but 1.11 is awful.

I've been reviewing older forum posts in an attempt to nail down the timeline for the PVP Gear Update. Most of them refer to this quote from Sheena. From this topic: https://forum.elysium-project.org/topic/30420-elysium-pvp-—-itemization-update/ Which is has been deleted. Can we please get an update/confirmation please?

Hey All, I am currently looking to join, or recruit for, a premade BG team. The team I would like to join / make would have members actively online between 3PM PST/6PM EST - 10PM PST/1AM EST, as well as long hours on the weekends / battleground holidays. The group would also primarily speak English. (I'll leave my experience at the bottom). I'm just started my PVP ranking process here on Elysium with the release of Alterac Valley and most of the games I've seen have had less of a "Lets Win" mentality and more of a "I'm just here for the quickest honor" mentality, then it generally degrades into a bunch of people typing at each other instead of playing the game. I would like a group that is better organized then your regular pug, that uses discord (Teamspeak or other VoiP), that has the gear and skill to back them up. I'm willing to pop consumables and help others purchase theirs if needed it to benefit the group. Please let me know if you have a group that is currently running that could benefit from another active teammate or if you're looking for a group yourself. If no one invites me into their group, or there are not any running, I have no issues starting my own. Thanks for you time guys, Cheers. Swiftdeus- Horde Hunter Experience (short list): Played only hunter since 2005, Raided most of the content, on retail I had almost all PvP Achievements, Warlord RBG Leader in Cata, 2400+ Duelist in WotLK, 95+ percentile on DPS in Legion, Not new to the private server scene.

Hello, I am using an "@hotmail.com" domain and I have never received any authentication e-mail from Elysium. The only e-mail I have received is when I failed to provide the correct password to my account a month ago. I tried to even change the password on the account panel to send me an e-mail, but that never came. Now I am completely locked out because of your new security, I would love to clear this up. Thanks -Swiftdeus