doodoobrown

Hopefully this thread doesn't get locked without an official response like the first, and still there's plenty of half-baked "not blizzlike" arguments 4 months later. The updated sets are necessary to both retain interest in PvP among more casual players and give adequate rewards for the time investment put forth toward the gear. No one would raid MC weekly if there was no boss drops, just how no one would hit an honor quota if there was no worthwhile reward. Not everyone is capable of reaching r11 and higher and currently there is no incentive to reach r10, thus causing the majority of people who frequent battlegrounds to be honor min/maxing, afk botting, or completely obsessed with PvP. For those who say the gear is overpowered: it isn't. There's a gear comparison that has been linked numerous times revealing that t2 and BWL offset pieces are roughly on par or better than r13 sets in PvE and when AQ40 is released the PvP gear (which takes months to obtain) will be obsolete by t2.5 class sets. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s9CLO31HDTjs2qPAn2FILB1dulLm1kup3G5Ih-Wrorg/edit

PvP on ZK has been dead for slightly over a month. Standings are dwindling toward the 251 mark, brackets are so small that rank progress past R11 for more than 6-8 people at a time has become impossible. People close to their goals either needed to quit entirely, solopush, or float at their current rank until bracket spots clear up. This rank drought affected Alliance more than Horde due to having more active rankers, so the two separate Alliance premades began competing for standings. The top rankers (Mysticwizard, Pendragon, Cazpiana, Birte) were able to outfarm the second premade (Rosanna, Marico, Daringman, Mennox) until last week. On average the second premade could barely farm half as much honor as the first, which continued until last week. The second premade is comprised of a core of Chinese players who use VPNs to log onto the server. When their leader, Mennox, decided to stack on brackets for a week his team was unsatisfied with their honor and suddenly was able to push upward for 70 hour stretches the next week even bypassing their own leader. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/315931876881596416/319226359291576321/alliaance_honor_war.jpg Previously, the standings followed a drastically different trend: https://images.discordapp.net/.eJwFwVsOhCAMAMC7cAAKVnl4G4IEjdoSqPFjs3d35qeefqlV7SJtrADbMTL3TQ_hnmrRlbleJbVj6Mw3JJGU97uQDEAzW7-g8ximOUacAqA1FtFEhz6axVkM8NBJ_JJuVNX_AwcJItw.ZluvFCv4uAl0Dce0aXvUCseOVh8 Arthurwang who was absent in the high standings during last week is a pvp regular, their premade leader admits to them sharing an account and being local to one another: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/117845174809264132/319700955278999554/unknown.png They also go offline at the same time when their VPN crashes: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/310078899449102336/318284067441475584/1.PNG And, according to their guildee, may be involved with selling accounts: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/289796078906376193/306923807942246401/unknown.png During their week of pushing brackets they spent the majority of their time (as a premade) AFKing against the Horde premade to get a pug game shortly after. Below is a screenshot of them AFKing during WSG last week: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/315869434763935744/315869633498578944/Screenshot_2017-05-21_11.11.27.png Every response from the one GM on ZK (Perembula) we have received has been dismissive toward the issue despite all the evidence we present. If these players are allowed to continue without further investigation or suspensions, what will prevent account sharing from dominating PvP entirely?

I also did the rank grind on Nostalrius to r13 and the time investment was the same. Just because you did one grind doesn't mean you've done them all and I see no reason to take you on word. On Nostalrius we had 15 BR1 spots by the end of the ZG patch (not sure when you ranked) while ZK had only one, so solopushers could put much more pressure on the system as a whole. The ZK grind was more competitive while Nostalrius had people focus more on quotas. This subject is moot by now the staff acknowledged the issue and didn't do anything about and the ZK rankers grinded 3 days straight to not decay. I doubt most would do it in their position.

So the loss of 3 weeks because of neglect is permissible because the service is free? It's a large time investment and it should be respected at the very least. What does the service being free have to do with anything, would you rather they didn't care at all about anything? Why have a staff or GM response team at all if Elysium didn't care about the quality of their work?

Wtf is your issue, do you just want to call each other names and talk about personal experience? I have facts, so I present them, where are yours?

What? Who said anything about not doing BWL, I intend on doing it. The whole purpose of this thread is to make PvP more worthwhile, so the server doesn't fill up with raidloggers and every BG isn't the same coterie of tryhards grinding 24/7. Would be nice to have more PvP activity in general, but as it stands most people appear to be content with raidlogging.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnd back to ad hominems. 12th time: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s9CLO31HDTjs2qPAn2FILB1dulLm1kup3G5Ih-Wrorg/edit I don't feel that the pre-update set is weaker, it is. I know that the updated set is on par or weaker than BWL BiS, as far as PvE is concerned. It's all there in the document, just look it over. What personal experience did you have that makes it so gear that takes months to farm is topped by gear you can get in a few hours once or twice a week in BWL? Have I said anything unreasonable, has my math been off? You gotta be more specific.

So waiting until Naxx to use gear that performs about as well at BWL gear is a reasonable expectation? Even on Nost most r13 mages and warlocks just used BWL gear in BGs because of the extra crit %. Also, this is less than 1% of the population we're discussing here, it's not going to affect gameplay as much as you make it out to be. The whole purpose of this thread is to make PvP worthwhile, pointing at the timeline doesn't really help people come up with solutions to existing problems.

That's exactly our point. We're not asking for it to be t3 quality, just upgraded so it's not completely eclipsed by BWL gear. Are you an Anathema player? If so, this doesn't really apply to you since you already have the upgraded PvP faction gear. On Ely/ZK the pre-update PvP sets are overall on par with pre-buff t1, so when t1 is updated and t2 is released the gear will be rendered absolutely useless.

11th time: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s9CLO31HDTjs2qPAn2FILB1dulLm1kup3G5Ih-Wrorg/edit It's nowhere near as strong as t3 even in its fully updated state. In fact it's not even up to AQ40 standards. Also, r14 gear is being updated on BWL release regardless of this thread. Please, read previous posts before replying.

How many times have we addressed this very same argument? I'm guessing the better part of 5 or 6 times. The timeline is not blizzlike. At all. The PvE gear tier is being updated way before it was on retail, PvP reputation vendors are being added far sooner than they were on retail, we have cross faction auction houses in 1.3, battlemasters in 1.3, AB before AV, and 1.12.1 talents. This argument is not valid on the premise of not blizzlike being a reason to reject a change being made to the game. Also, stop the ad hominems, this thread is to benefit PvP as a whole by giving everyone incentive to queue, only people queueing right now are the people who love PvP and are willing to grind for trash gear. Here's the 10th time we're linking this: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s9CLO31HDTjs2qPAn2FILB1dulLm1kup3G5Ih-Wrorg/edit The biggest difference between the updated PvP gear and BWL BiS is 38 AP and 1.4% crit for the hunter set. For the most part the PvE BiS slightly outperforms the updated PvP gear. And to be absolutely clear: we do not expect this change to be made on 1.6 release. Waiting for progression in BWL to finish is a perfectly reasonable request.

@quasexort They're updating t1 in 1.4, so it stands to follow that t2 will be updated on release, otherwise no one would use it.

You have 1.12.1 talents in 1.3, updated t1 in 1.4, you get updated t2 on BWL release, AV in 1.5, and WSG reputation vendor in 1.6. Can we stop assuming blizzlike is in any way this server's primary intention? Then again this argument will keep cropping up regardless of what anyone says, like it has for the past 5 pages.

It was ironic, I was commenting on how the number of people in group doesn't affect item quality in PvP, all the exalted PvP reputation gear is level 65 regardless of the number of people involved in the BG. And this is not about reputation vendors, this is about faction gear as it always has been from the start. AV is getting released before BWL, if you have a problem with that open up a separate thread. Also, Nost's itemization was made clear until people spoke up about how there's no point in PvPing. What don't you understand? If the gear doesn't get updated in 1.6 or 1.7 then all you will get is premades because only dedicated pvpers would be willing to invest the time for gear that is complete trash, if it is then you will see MANY more pugs because people will actually care about their rank since the gear is worth their time. Look at the gear comparison, please, so we stop getting off-topic.

Haestingas, what is your point? This thread isn't about AV loot and if you want to talk about the updated PvP gear then check my comparison on google docs. Also, AV does not = Naxx because two pieces of gear are itemized well. TUF+Lobotomizer are worse than the rag weapons and the exalted faction items from WSG and AB are the same level as the AV exalted gear, so we're getting the same quality for 10-15 man. Why is every single one of your arguments just senseless raging, insults, and picking out some specific pieces of pvp gear that work well in pve and acting like it's a huge issue? The items don't make a significant difference and we're not asking for the update immediately on BWL release. Do you just want to argue for fun? Like we can make up shit to banter about in another thread. If you're going to accuse us of cherrypicking, please give examples. The last post I went through the guy's entire argument rather than captioning a single paragraph and framing it out of context. I have examples of you cherrypicking, however, like how you said the updated r8 legs+chest are BiS for fury warriors and that's why you thought the entire pvp update is wrong because of two pieces for one poorly itemized class being slightly better than muh BWL gear.

The r13+r14 gear is already in the game and the weapons are getting updated during 1.6 regardless of this thread. I made a list comparing the stats of updated r13 gear with updated t2 (which you're getting on BWL release, that's not blizzlike btw). In PvE the upgraded PvP gear either is even with BWL BiS or is a slight downgrade. The exception is the hunter pvp gear which has 38 more AP and 1.4% more crit. AQ40 gear out-performs updated r13 substantially in every single category. Here's the link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s9CLO31HDTjs2qPAn2FILB1dulLm1kup3G5Ih-Wrorg/edit Those "Naxx quality weapons" are happening regardless of this thread, check the timeline. Also they're closer to AQ40 quality or drops from Chromaggus/Nefarian. Point is: you'll still use Crul, Maladeth, and Chromatic Sword in PvE and do about as much damage as people using r14 weapons, which less than 1% of the population will have anyway. Also, this only applies to rogues/warriors right now, casters have next to no reason to go for r14. Competing with players is more challenging than beating a boss that's been out for over 12 years, and not only that it's far more time consuming. Getting rewarded for r12+ is certainly not getting free gear and this affects so few people I can't possibly see why you would be against giving these few dedicated people their due. Also, why cite the amount of people in WSG/AB versus MC/BWL, what does it prove? I can just as easily say: AV = 40 man MC/BWL/AQ40/Naxx = 40 man Oh I see, I guess we should get Naxx quality loot now.

1. This thread isn't about r14 gear, that's being updated in 1.6 regardless of this thread. 2. If you suck premades will queue into you and then your premade will make less honor than pugs. 3. You don't read. We've said multiple times that waiting for BWL progression to finish is a reasonable request. This is the first time you've actually tried to make an argument btw. If you read back your posts all you were doing was 'lol mom's basement' memes 50% of the time.

How many trade premades do you see that crop up and disappear within the same day they're formed? You're assuming that the second you form a premade and have everyone on a VOIP all pugs bend to you and every other premade is immediately willing to dodge you. Have you ever been in one of these premades, even momentarily? They constantly shift placement for people that perform better or understand objectives in BGs when other strong premades are forming. Without skilled teammates or people conscious of objectives any group of people, even on a VOIP, is nothing more than a coordinated pug. You're confusing this with retail, if you want to learn how to beat a boss on 12 year old content then just go on wowhead or ownedcore and read up on it. Most people in raids expect to be carried and put little to no effort in learning their rotations, learning boss mechanics, or learning to gear correctly. The guilds that have trouble with this content usually have a dedicated core of people who care and a never-ending supply of people they recruited off trade who want free loot. If guilds are taking months to clear content they need to screen recruits better because most new content is cleared within hours of it being released. Also, "instant Tier 2 quality." Stop. We're completely willing --and this has already been said-- to let people kill their 12 year old dragon within 2 hours of BWL patch being released before having PvP gear updated. We'll even wait until the ZG patch when people are burnt out and raidlogging in full Tier 2, but any longer could cause the most active player base to quit because they're stuck grinding 10+ hours a day for gear that's equivalent to pre-buff Tier 1. It has been proven that the difference between the updated sets and BWL BiS is marginal in PvE (I made a list on google docs comparing the gear earlier in the thread) and also this is gear that less than 1% of the server population will have, it barely affects the server as a whole. If anything updated Tier 2 will make BGs a nightmare for pugs because of how easy it is to get and it has near equivalent stats to updated r13 gear. So the premades that have been stomping pugs are going to get tougher jackboots, even on Nost all the premades used PvE gear primarily and yet here you are whining about gear that less than 1% of the server will get. If you think learning a 1-3 button rotation and reading up on a boss for 5 minutes is more difficult than competing against actual players, then you either completely ignore PvP and assume the worst of it or are deliberately deluding yourself for the sake of your argument.

Man, he really loved that horse. t. Mr. Hans

Yep, you're right. I'll edit that out then.

R8 Chest: http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=22872 R8: Leggings http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=22873 Total: 40 Stamina 106 AP 3% crit R12 Leggings: http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=16479 R13 Chest:http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=16477 Total: 81 Stamina 72 AP 3.70% crit 1% hit Deathdealer Brestplate: http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=11926 Outrider's Plate: http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=22651 Total: 35 Stamina 62 AP 3% crit 1% hit Outrider's Plate is set to be added during 1.6 on the timeline, so if you have an issue with PvP gear being better than PvE gear, then look no further than Blizzard for poorly itemizing fury warrior gear during this patch. Also, it's odd how you complain about a few pieces of level 60 gear that takes no less than a month to gain on their own, but have no grievances with using a piece of level 44 mail in endgame content. If edgemaster's was not essential would you honestly tell me you would break the devilsaur set bonus for r8? Even with the gear available without rank you only lose .7% crit and 10 AP by using it over the updated r13 set and trade 44 AP for 1% hit when compared to the r8 set. You're whining over the smallest differences and refuse to show your work as to why rank gear is significantly better than gear normally obtainable in 1.6. If you got farmed by premades up until R8 this is not the thread to cry about it in.

I wasn't kidding about the differences being marginal as far as pve is concerned. Here's a list of updated pvp gear in comparison to BiS gear in 1.6. Let the numbers speak for themselves. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s9CLO31HDTjs2qPAn2FILB1dulLm1kup3G5Ih-Wrorg/edit

Nost was pretty clear about not releasing updated pvp gear early, until people began raidlogging in 1.5 and that was looking to continue until they decided to listen to the community and release the gear early so people would have incentive to play instead of just logging in once a week for BWL gear. Do yourselves a favor and compare BWL gear to the current pvp blues and epics, there is absolutely no incentive to do pvp for someone who doesn't love it already. Unfortunately the honor system uses standings to calculate rank and breakpoints to decide who gets what amount of rank progress. Without more standings the breakpoint % will only service few players and force pvpers to rank for much longer due to how small the brackets are. Can we stop pointless ad hominems and ITS ON THE TIMELINE memes and recognize a serious flaw in the honor system that could be helped by making the gear more appealing to pvers? If you guys hate premades so much then why all of the senseless hostility towards a sound way to increase the frequency of pugs so every game isn't a premade pugstomp. Also, no one said hunters sucked in pvp, he said they sucked in pve and they do.

They took out the blues in 1.3 due to the items being horrendously overpowered compared to pre-buff MC loot. This was the correct decision for this patch, but not after 1.6 where raid gear far surpasses pvp gear in its current form. If you compare post-buff MC loot and BWL loot to the current pvp sets you'd wonder why people bother putting in months on end to grind pvp gear at all. The blues and even r13 sets are outclassed in every possible way by most t2 pieces and standalone items in BWL. Chromatic Boots and Mish are both superior to the caster r13 head and r13 plate boots respectively (even after update), rogue t2 completely outclasses r13, and Maladath is better for pve than the r14 sword after update as well. Nostalrius had the updated blues during 1.6 and people still religiously did BWL and used t2, it caused no issue whatsoever aside from giving would-be raidloggers a reason to play every week, thus boosting standings and widening brackets making ranks more accessible to everyone. Where do you people get off complaining about a marginal at best dmg increase that takes months at end to obtain? Arguing for the sake of argument.