Taurior

The way I see it is PVE gear as a whole is meant to stay relevant throughout the whole game, because it's the main activity in the game. PVP is a side activity meant so that people have things to do beside fininshing the storyline, but keep playing even when they finished certain raids. Later blizzard saw that PVP was a very popular concept and made it so that PVP gear and PVE gear are more split, this was done by adding resilience to gear pieces in TBC. This was not how it was in vanilla, PVE is supposed to be the main source of gear. Like blib said, it's not a bad thing that gear is not relevant for a long time, you have to keep putting time in the game, even if you already spent the time for R14 in PVP. it's not supposed to last you for the biggest part of the game. I completely agree with Blib. Also keep in mind that there's probably a good reason why the elysium staff is still debating on how to battle the PVP gear update, if it didn't have any downsides they would've just made it the same as nost PVP.

I do not think the staff will consider chaning the stats of gear outside of the blizzlike stat changes, even if they did there would be a better way to balance things out. Changing the stats of gear will result the server moving away from the blizzlike vanilla feeling, which elysium staff is aiming for. You're still only looking at it from your own perspective, try to look at it from the other side too. be openminded, instead of focusing on just how it benefits one side of the server. For the PVP side of it it may be great, because that makes the gear become more relevant for a longer time, but seeing it from a PVE perspective it makes PVE gear less relevant as you can just PVP a bit to get the blue set. Every change that you make on the game has a negative side effect.

Nice thinking, let's count all level 1-59 accounts, how about we also count all bank alts, and while we're at it maybe you should also count all forum accounts with it LOL Stop trolling around. The difference between MC and HWL weps is huge, even HWL and BWL weps. Stop being a pleb and read the full discussion before you talk shit. I myself am also going to rank( at least 12, and if my schedule allows me to, maybe higher) so please also GTFO with the dragonslayer bullshit, you don't know me, nor do you know my playstyle. Anyway, this thread is starting to be a "oh you're against my point of view let me tell you what I think is best" and not a thread to discuss a solution. So far there's one good. So far there have been 2 solutions: 1: "imho updated pvp gear(not weapon) with bwl 1.6 or zg 1.7, then update weapons with necropolis. " " Then the best way would be to reverse it. Upgrade weapons later and set gear with BWL/ZG " 2: " What people are pushing for is to get the gear upgrade in the zg patch which is at least 10 months after the servers release. " Option 1 tackles the gear problem at BWL/ZG as well as the weapon problem at AQ/Naxx Option 2 tackles the gear problem at ZG Focus more on the best solution instead of taking things personally and attacking eachother, I am just trying to come up with a solution that will make the most balanced change.

Then why do you want PVP gear to be upgraded at ZG patch? by that time a raider spent at least as much time on PVE as you need to spend in PVP(comparing hardcore PVP with hardcore PVE)

PVP gear shouldn't be OP compared to the PVE gear you can get. a MC geared warrior should beat a HWL warrior in PVE

Nost already did both, why not just go there then and raid there too if you want it to change that bad. The server may be fine, but that doens't take away from the fact that a MC geared warrior won't be able to beat a HWL geared warrior in a competative scene. What you want is change one problem by increasing the reward of ranking without having to spend more time in the process while you do not want to fix the same problem that exists on the PVE side. I would call that a handout. Either you balance both, or balance nothing.

And there we go with the tunnelvision madness. how about you go back to nost PVP if you want to have the update early lol, you're the one that wants to change things up, not me. seems like the only thing people know nowadays is go to retail or gtfo. I supply information and arguments. What you want is to change something to the benefit of a small population of people. I suggest that if you're going to change the PVP gear to balance gear, you also have to change the PVP weps to balance weps. What they're(not you, you're asking for a handout not gonna bother with that) asking for is that the PVP gear is balanced so that it's not completely useless for them after a certain time has passed. this is fine, but you can't change on thing and leave the other thing unchanged. Be openminded and provide normal arguments, if you're going to tunnelvision and talk trash you might as well leave this thread.

2x Weapons, legs. PVE Shoulders will only add 2 str, you can count those aswell making it 4 items. as you will have those shoulders before anyone else at AQ release, it will take at least a couple of weeks before a PVE player can get those shoulders. And GL beating a warrior that uses HWL weapons when you are using vis'kag and brutality blade if you happen to be lucky. That's not gonna happen unless the player that uses the HWL weapons is a bad PVE player, which is unlikely in a competative setting. If you wish I can show the the difference it makes in stats.

If you ask me, having 3 PVP items be BiS until naxx at BWL patch, is already something that's not right. anything that adds another piece to that collection is in my opinion a step in the wrong direction. What's the point of competative PVE if you have to no-life PVP for multiple weeks in order to be a part of that.

Yeah, but later on you continue to say that the gear should be updated earlier, I read that as, just upgrade the gear and leave the rest alone.(might not how you meant it, (if so, my bad) but that's how I read it) The same can be said about the people who agree on it, not that they're mostly trolls, but they don't give any solid arguments/research on why it would benefit the server more. some examples: "Everyone with half a brain completely agrees with the fact that updating pvp gear in Naxx is the worst outcome possible. I'm gonna make a big thread about this if I can which can hopefully generate some traction." "I was so happy to reroll on the fresh because I wanted to rank on it. If it stays like, I'll probably not reroll at all. "I don't want to exaggerate, but it would literally destroy the PvP scene. " There are more examples, most of the posts in this whole topic is people saying they're for/against it without knowing how it affects the server, only biased opinions are thrown out there. there's also people who try to misinform ppl to bend them to their side by supplying half information. How I see it: If you want Elysium to make a change, you have to supply them with the information they need to make a good unbiased decision about the matter in question. In this case it would mean for example: comparisons of PVP and PVE gear in their respective forms, before and after the change. a list that shows how the changes impact the bis PVE gear and bis PVP gear( people claim PVE gear will be a lot better than PVP gear in PVP, show proof, not just words) You basically need to analyse what the impact of the change is on other aspects of the game. this is not just a small change you're asking for, it's something that has impact on the whole game, PVP and PVE. EDIT: copy-paste doens't show clearly, added quotation marks

I agree that it is part of a solution to make PVP and PVE more balanced, but just part of the solution, you have to make changes to the weapons too, otherwise PVP items will dominate in PVE, like I said before, pieces like they legs will be used until titanic legs, shoulders will be upgraded with tier 2.5, so that gear will stay good for a long time, only upgrading gear would mean for warriors that you get 3 PVP items that will only be replaced after the release of Naxx, 2 of which you already use from BWL release(4 if you count shoulders too, as the only change you get from AQ shoulders is 2 str) this is a big NO. I expect that warrior is not the only class that will have PVP gear being better in PVE than PVE gear itself. I'm AGAINST the original suggestion, it would imbalance the game too much. What you said about everyone that was against it is now for the suggestion is far from correct. Don't try to manipulate people in doing what you want to happen, the media does that enough already :)

The top-end dmg is lower, but the low end dmg is higher, plus you get 1.3% more crit and 5 stamina. the difference in average dmg is still only 5 dmg, I believe 1.3% crit and 5 stamina is about equal as the max dmg you lose, again I'm not an expert on PVP so I can be wrong. It's hard to balance it without changing the stats of certain items. I still believe it would be the best solution to the problem. I'd love to hear other solutions that tackle this problem that benefits the gameplay without altering a lot.

That would probably the best way indeed, the weps would be pretty much on-par with PVE weps that way: I believe for PVP the R14 weps will be a tad better than the PVE weps, resulting in no imbalanced weapons ( not an expert, so correct me if I'm wrong) Updating the weapons at 1.9 will probably be the best time, the PVP weps will be a tad better than the AQ weapons, which shoulnd't make for a big loss of competition Gear-wise it'll take some time to check when the best time would be, if I can believe most people here, that would be to update the PVP gear at the 1.7(ZG) patch.

1.10 is correct Here you can see the deathbone stats over time: http://web.archive.org/web/20060415023256/http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/itemset.html?setid=124 Just shift through the dates by clicking on the arrows on the top of the page and match that date with the date of a patch :)

True, but that has nothing to do with anything I said, or with this topic.

Not the majority, correct. but he was, hence why I said he wants it. The problem I have with the suggestion is: Why upgrade the PVP gear earlier to make it more viable without changing the weapon upgrade date? You guys want a partial balance in favour of yourself, but if you're going to balance one thing, you have to also balance the other thing. Currently PVE weapons are far worse than the PVP weapons(for rogues/war for sure) it's the exact same problem: PVE gear is superiour in PVP so you want the gear to be upgraded earlier so PVP gear is superiour/viable in PVP again. same goes for the weps: PVP weps are superiour in PVE, so the weps should be upgraded later so PVE gear is equal/viable in PVE again. PVP gear/weps are not accessible for all players due to the large amount of time it costs. While everyone that can take the time to farm the PVP gear/weps also has time to raid casually 4 hours a week, so although it's not ideal, having PVP weps being so much better than any PVE wep for at least 13 months(assuming you reach R14 within the first +- 7 months and you get your weapon upgrades in the first week of naxx) is a far bigger problem than PVP gear not being better than PVE gear (that is accessible for almost everyone). And what void_echo said was basically that he wants to PVP to rank 14 once and then have the best gear possible in game I'm all for upgrading the gear earlier, but then you also have to delay the wep upgrade(best would probably be patch 1.10, 3 months after AQ)

I still don't follow, must be the language gap I admited that in the End-game(naxx patch) you will have to raid in order to get the best item pieces for PVP. You said earlier that you basically want to get the BiS end-game pvp gear handed to you: "And forcing hardcore PvP players (even normal PvPers) to do raid Naxx to be able to get the best gear for PvP is better because...?" (You don't want to raid end-game , instead you just want to rank to rank 14 at the start and get the best gear possible in game for pvp for the whole duration of vanilla), this is as close to the definition of a hand-out as you can probably get. I never stated that I want anything handed out(I'm against it) , and If you think I did I'd love to see the quote. What I said after you complained that it's not fair to have PVPers work for their gear(by playing PVE, a couple of hours a week) when they already spend time on it more than a year before naxx: I'd love to know what part of that sentence says that I am looking for a hand-out

You're yet again making no sense. If you're going to reply to a discussion, read the posts that were posted earlier before you place your reply. Or maybe you're just trolling, idk. I never said I wanted the gear to be updated before naxx, I am against updating the gear earlier, the reasons why can be found in my previous posts. Take some time to read up on the previous posts, please :)

Wait, I don't follow, first you imply it's the same thing: Now you say that it's not the same thing, which it is def not. I don't see how it's worse for PVPers, End-game PVE is better yeah, but what do you expect? it's a mainly PVE focused game, with PVP as a side activity, ofc they won't give people who did PVP at the start of the expention the best gear possible. that would ruin the main aspect of the game: PVE. As I said before, even a casual raider can get the BiS items end-game by raiding just a couple of hours in a week, which is a complete different thing than playing for 100+ hours a week for multiple weeks, something that most people don't have the time for due to work/school/family etc, making it not accessible for every player. PVE is accessible for every player (even those who don't have all the time in the world)and gives every player the same gear. Not sure what a total time investment would be useful for. if you'd have read the previous post, it's not about the total time investment, but about the accessibility that the gear has, PVP requiring a person to go completely no-life for multiple weeks is not accessible, however, PVE requiring you to spend 4 hours +- of your week playing PVE is really accessible to any player. Sure, not every guild can beat all naxx content on release, but that's vanilla you're not getting a free handout

Huh? whut? how? uhm? Not sure what you draw that conclusion, I'm just stating a fact that obliterates your bad comparison I'm just saying that the PVE gear is obtainable by anyone even without spending much time in PVE this is not possible for PVP. By saying this I am stating that your comment that having PVPers raid naxx(4 hours a week?) to get BiS gear is the exact same thing as forcing PVEers to HARDCORE PVP(100+ hours a week for multiple weeks) is a false comparison. I hope that you now understand how bad your comparison was, and that you don't randomly type things that don't make sense

You're forgetting the fact that even by playing casually you can still get those BiS PVE items, however, in order to get the PVP items, you have to go full no-life for a couple of weeks/months. you don't have to spend a lot of time in PVE to get those items maybe 4 hours each week, but to get the pvp items you have to PVP about 100 hours per week consecutively? how is that even remotely a good comparison. Also, the main activity in wow is PVE, the whole storyline is based on it, PVP is a side activity. I mean, I don't think you would hear ANYONE complain that they have to spend 4 hours a week to get BiS items.

I'm not twisting anything, I also never said that the gear upgrade is the cause of premades stomping pugs, nor did I say that about dodging, I just said, the more ppl rank high, the more premades will stomp pugs and will dodge, the only one that is twisting things is you. Gear is not the only reason people do something, there's plenty to do in naxx even if there would be no gear improvement for the players, the hardcore PVE guilds will battle for speed kills, top dmg, smallest raid clear, w/e you can think of, these challenges is what will keep PVE alive even without gear. Everyone knows that elysium is not completely blizzlike, as it uses a 1.12.1 core, talents, models etc. hence why I didn't answer that question, it's a stupid question. As far as I know all the real changes that have been applied is to bring the server closer to blizzlike, not further away from it. ( I recall DM getting a hotfix so it's not as easy to farm or something, which is blizzlike as not everyone was farming DM back then.) About the PVP update coming in 2020, that's bullshit, the timeline clearly states the expected release is sept 2018, they woulnd't put it on that date if they knew they won't make it, the elysium team has grown in numbers. The release may be delayed by a couple of months, we can't be sure. but that's a problem for then, not for right now. And as stated before, if you want to be rewarded for PVPing more than you are right now, I suggest going to nost PVP or roll a warrior/rogue to get those OP weapons. Talking about answering questions, answer me why you should update the pvp gear but not also change the warrior/rogue weapons to match their current content PVE weps. Not updating the PVP gear will not ruin the server either, you're exaggerating a lot.

The thing I am wondering is: why is it so important to have many high ranks? PVP will be alive even without having high ranks, it's like high rankers do the server a favour by getting a high rank, you're doing it for yourself, not for the server. sure, with high ranks you're gonna have more premades stomping pugs and dodging other premades(only a small amount of the premades actually battle eachother as it's not great for the honor gain), but what real advantage is there in upgrading the gear if not for personal use. how I see it you just want to be rewarded more for choosing to spent a lot of time in PVP. If you want to be rewarded you have 2 options: go to nost PvP, get your naxx upgraded gear there, or play a rogue/war. you play because it's fun I assume, sure, it's good to be rewarded for going full no-life for a couple of weeks, but no1 is forcing you to do so.

The blue PVP gear does have SP though, so you can just use that. Keep in mind that just because it's got a shiny purple color doens't mean that it is the best. the blue head/chest will def beat their T1 counterparts https://gyazo.com/efa973aee50f51ec04ef924b2073a247 https://gyazo.com/d8d4672fc32d13295bacf5802d8a0d3e https://gyazo.com/50443606a8f1b54d3b20bf50c2cbd6b9 https://gyazo.com/9d9e0838667e22d4852affbbdf0fdda6

If anyone is looking for the right stats http://rexas.tv/nostItems/ this website has most, if not all of the items from before the nost shutdown,