Roax

I don't agree, that there will be no BoEs to buy from AH. There might be way less, but that should be partly compensated by less demand, because people would loose less frequent useable items, which they otherwise would buy from the AH. And your character can be improved by BoPs or by drops of useable BOEs. Last but not least, there is still some crafted gear to buy. But again, there won't be a server- or elysium-wide agreement on one of the loot-rules. So state your rules in advance, adept to the group or don't pug. Edit: sorry for double-post

Tbh I don't see much difference between calling someone greedy or calling him a entitled little twat, who ignores other persons need. Both implies selfish behaviour, which might lead to a misuse of looting in general. So by calling out a particular person feeling entitled to a particular item without taking into account, how that person would act, if another BoE drops, which is not a direct upgrade, is an unfair way to discredit that particular person and especially his/her preferred loot-rule. As you know, I prefer greeding on BOEs, which are no direct upgrades to me. So I could easily state, that all those, who need on BoEs to sell them hope, that the other group members only greed, because of the bigger chance in winning the roll. And I could add, that they would ignore /random 100-rolls of group-members, who greeded. I could also point out a particular person in one the "ninja"-threads. But that would only be non-factual presuming and not expedient to the discussion.

You are omnipresent in all threads according this topic and once stated, that all you want is, that players, who need on BoEs shouldn't be called ninjas, greedy or be a target for other insults. So you tried to convince people, that needing is fine, if everybody does it. Some others and me stated in other threads, that they/I see where you are coming from and you might have point, although they/I still prefer greeding in BoEs. So besides the usual insulting on both sides (you included), there have been people, who were willing to accept, that needing on BoEs isn't necessarily ninjaing or greedy. And after all you're still implying, that those, who only need, if the item is an direct upgrade, are greedy, ignoring the fact, that the same players would greed on a BoE, which won't be useable or an upgrade for them (as J. AllenBrack would presumable do). That said, if you are serious about achieving more acceptance for needing on BoEs and for those who do so, step down from your pedestal & at least admit, that being greedy has nothing to do with the preferred loot-rule whatsoever. It's solely a personal matter, which can't be proved in the forums. So it's an obsolete point in any loot-rule-discussion and shouldn't be used by either side. @all: please stop suspecting and insulting, unless that's all you want. As there won't be an agreement on using from now on only one of the rules, don't do pugs or do state the loot-rules in advance.

Voted for direct upgrade, although I would adept to the in advance stated loot rules. What bothers me most in all these discussions and in the internet in general, is people getting personal by calling others names like bitch, bonehead, retard etc.. But hail to the anonymous internet, where getting personal is a "legit" strategy. That said, I gladly group with anybody, who is able to keep things factual at any time regardless of the preferred loot rules. Especially online, where you are able to rethink before pressing send.

Good to know. I did not mean to offend you. I'm sorry, if you felt offended. On my retail vanilla server the dominating rule was need=equip on horde. Never played alliance, but as it was pve, I guess the alliance did it just the same. But remember talking about it back then, that it differed region- or languagewise. I played on a german server. My other thought about it is, that's probably harder to farm on a pvp-server, so that need on BoEs was/is the preferred rule. Never played in pvp, so I might be completely wrong ;-). And the guys, that are going nuts on in advance stated rules, can't be taken serious. To me, it's all about avoiding as much drama as possible, but there'll always be some of it.

If you can agree, that loot rules should be discussed in advance, so why not start yourself bringing it up in your pugs to shorten the accusations. This might lead to more people doing so.

I understand you & am able to agree with you. It's wrong to be called a ninja in that case. I even could agree on you with your provided solution, although I don't prefer it. But as you won't convince everybody or at least a big majority, there'll always be pugs with players of every "roll-faction". So my solution/advice is, to state the loot-rules or at least ask for clarification in advance. I bet in the long term that'll work better, than trying to convince most of the players through the forum that everybody needing on BoEs is more fair and simpler put.

So let's talk about facts. First of all, I accept that everyone benefits nearly equally from winning a BoE as a fact. Each BoE-drop depends on actual market price for the dropped BoE & therefore its actual availability on the market and on the market prices and availability of all more or less statwise benefitting similar BoEs for all the classes of the group. But as a group isn't able to evaluate who benefits most, it doesn't matter at all. So yeah, you're right. But all the the discussions back in retail vanilla and on recent vanilla forums just like this proved, there are lots of players, who think and feel, everybody - themselves included - should greed on BOEs, if you won't benefit from equipping. That's also a fact. Why they feel this way (me included btw) doesn't matter at all, because we are talking about virtual items and virtual gold, which only can be used in only one virtual game. If these players are happy with this, there's no need to "rescue" or convince them. They play the game in the way and by the rules they want to play it. There is nothing wrong about it, as there is also nothing wrong about playing it by the rules you & all the players, who prefer your based on pure numeric logic and simplicity loot rules. But if no one is able to accept the other point of view as equal footing and/or is not willing to state, discuss or vote for the loot rules in advance, everybody should avoid pugs to avoid drama. If you want to pug and want to avoid drama, think ahead.

So still most of the opinion-leaders of both sides state their point of view as the one and only truth. They implement they are social and fair, what they in fact would be, if anyone else in their group would follow their loot-rules. Ask yourself, if you are able to follow the loot-rules of the groupleader or the majority of the group, if stated in advance, even if it's not your preferred rule. All the threads about need rolls on high valued BOEs show, that it's highly probable to pug with players, who don't share your opinion about this. That said, with the next unexpected BOE-drop the already well known drama is just around the corner, if the loot rules haven't been stated in advance. If you join or build a group for just a few minutes (mostly outdoor groups for a few mobs or a quick quest) stating, voting for or discussing loot-rules will cost too much time. In that case there's still the possibilty to let group members, who greeded, repeat their roll, if someone won the need roll, who will only benefit by selling the item. If someone, who will benefit by equipping, has won the roll, there's nothing more to do, because the greeders followed the "need & greed rule" and the other needers lost their roll already. This behavior will not avoid all possible drama, but at least most of it. If that's too much communication/effort for you, don't pug. Edit: Sorry for the complicated flow of the text, but I'm no native speaker with a quite rusty english ;-)

Exactly this. Best statement in all threads about this topic. Be fair & state your preferred rule/opinion in advance & find consensus with all group-members. If that's not possible, leave & look for another group. Everything else is stubborn and dogmatic. Edit: And don't forget to keep calm and stay friendly, if there's no consensus, cause there's no right and wrong, just different points of view ;-)

Wouldn´t it be the fairest thing to do, to evaluate the actual AH-price for an high-valued item, then give any member of the group the possibilty to buy the item from the group, which means every other group-member gets 25% of the price. If nobody wants the item or is too short on gold, it will be sold and afterwards all five group-members will get 20% of the earned gold. Compilacted & you got to trust each other, I know. But doing it this way, everybody would at least get monetary gain. Easiest way is to get a consens about loot-rules before a run. If that didn´t happen, there´s the possibilty to chat immediatly "everybody roll need" and discuss afterwards, what to do. As there are five people, you are able to vote for the loot-rules. Although the need-faction has a point based on pure logic and simplicity, I would have greeded, just because of the social aspect of it. No offense to the need-faction, but the best about vanilla, was finding friends to play with and having a not too anonym server community. And to me, greeding, if I´m not in need of that special item, and happily granting it (to?) somebody else, is a big part of playing together. Neverthelees after reading this thread, I would demand the winner/"needer" of a boe-item (if the loot-rules were set to greed) to equip it right away. If he won´t do it, there will be a blacklisted player more on my list. And I will ask for the loot-rules before a run, just to avoid drama later on.

For fun and/or immersion, if a player prefers daggers.

Welcome, the work & dedication of all involved people is very much appreciated. Hopefully you´ll mainly enjoying this. ;-)

Hey Shagu, Great work! Thanks a lot for this pretty ui. Moving the bags would be the cherry on the cake, but I´ll stick to PfUI anyways.

Generalizations are always a good basis for productive discussions.