Nosleep

that is the main one showing that needing BOE and needing BOP is the same thing when its an upgrade for someone in the group. and these are a few showing other consequences/questions of using that flawed logic.

nope, i debunk that idea in my post.

something which i show to be of no consequence as the value of the item is not what makes the difference, i give a few examples of why that is.

so you didnt read the rest of my post where i explain, in detail, and give examples, to show that needing BOE's to sell them and get upgrades from AH is exactly the same as needing BOP's to do the same thing. i also show that the gold value of an item is not what makes the difference when deciding if ppl need it or not. because if you had, you would form an argument that is based on things to counter the points i raised, instead, what you did.. was repeat what others have already said before you, and that i made arguments against in my post. you take 1 line from my wall of text, which you prob couldnt be bothered to read, repeat what others have said, which i counter in my post...then tell me im wrong... gg.

you act like a troll who adds absolutely ZERO to almost every convo and topic you post in on these forums. oh except for your constant insults towards anyone who doesnt share the same view as you, but thanks for your constructive input if you dont agree with the points i have raised, thats fine.. if you want to make counter arguments to any of the points i have raised, thats fine... but you mate.. just spew insults like a 12 year old... thats not fine.. you should be ashamed.

just because an item has a high gold value when sold, doesnt mean you need it over someone for whom its an upgrade. By that logic.. you could also need BOP gear with high vendor price because it will add to your pile of gold to eventually buy an item from AH. if you think that because the item is BOE then all deserve its value equally then you are saying gold is a need. But you take it from them and claim you have the right just because you can sell it.. weather or not it will sell for enough gold to buy the item you need from AH... you just see gold and think you need that gold. also, there are many ways to farm gold, you dont have to take items ppl need... greed is gold and need is upgrade. its that simple. potential value is not relevant. and another point that spawn from this stupid logic... what if the BOE item that drops is NOT on AH atm? is it still ok to take it from them just because you say they can buy it from AH? what if they cant afford to buy it? what if its not there? did u check AH b4 needing it? would that even matter to your flawed logic? also, by that logic, it wouldnt be ok for someone to need the BOE unless they could deffo get a BOE upgrade from AH after selling it? if some player in full BiS is there.. they are not allowed to need the BOE because they cant buy an item from AH?? crazy stupid logic guys. - explained below is the BS direct upgrade Vs indirect upgrade argument... and a counter to anyone who claims that needing BOE's for gold is different to needing BOP's for gold. - example: if the item you want from AH cost 200g .. and a BOE drops worth 120g .. if you need it.. you still cant buy the item.. you need 80 more gold..... but you would still need it because it can be converted into gold. .. add it to your pile of gold.. .. then need the next BOE that drops even if its an upgrade for someone, might only be worth 50g .. so u need 1 more BOE and then eventually buy an item... that is needing for gold. and that example of needing 3x BOE items to get enough gold for the BOE u say u need from AH is exactly the same as needing 15 BOP items to get the item u need from AH. needing BOE for gold is the same as needing BOP's for gold .. there is nothing wrong with it at all.. UNLESS its an upgrade for someone. gold = greed and item upgrades = need. every item can be converted into gold.. some small amounts and some large amounts.. the value of the item is not what makes the difference, unless you used completely flawed logic.. so by that reasoning.. you guys would need anything at all because everything will either buy you an item or add to your pile to eventually buy an item (indirect upgrade?) direct upgrade and indirect upgrade seems to be a subjective thing. I dont see a difference other than saying direct would be a 1 step process and indirect would take more than 1 step. but thats just my subjective interpretation. But i dont think it would matter how you define the difference when using it as an argument for needing for gold, it would still be flawed. if you need an item just because of its gold value.. you are needing for gold.. thats not need.. if you need items that are upgrades for others, just so u can sell it (regardless of where you sell it or for how much and regardless if it is worth the same, less or more than the item you may or may not need from AH yourself) then you are a ninja. and BS flawed logic wont change that, no matter how hard you try. EDIT: if some says they need a BOE for upgrade.. and they then refuse to equip it, it is them who is the ninja and they should be outed in the same way as this ninja has been. you guys should be ashamed. TLDR: like i care, anyone who wants to engage in the convo will read it, trolls prob wont.

They (the Admins) replied before i entered the discussion and they replied to people who said ''its not fair they gang up and have monopoly'', both of which I have no issue with just like the admin doesnt. You really do just totally misrepresent everything I say and make arguments based on your incorrect assumption that I dont like the monopoly. Amazing how you do this consistently, which is why I previously called you a troll. The admins can do whatever they want, they change rules depending on how they see best, my point is that I feel the MC/healing of enemy faction during pvp battles and that favor being returned, warrants discussion. You dont, because you have so much to lose. And maybe because you are not doing that specific action and continuously debate me over points I have not raised and have no issue with. I dont assume the blizz rules or ToU were written with any principles in mind, my assumption, if you wanna call it that, is that ALL rules based around the concept of cheating or fair play, are written with principles in mind.. in and out of computer games. It's the principle behind something that makes it ok or not ok.. more so than the effects. Further to that, I have stated many times that quoting blizz rules and ToU is NOT a valid arguments for either side.. yet here you are again, misrepresenting what I say and acting like I have said things I have not said and in fact I said the opposite. You seem to think I am arguing that blizz rules and blizz principles are what makes win trading cheating.. but I am not.. my point is that almost everyone would agree that win trading is bad, cheating, and the reason most agree is not JUST because of the potential effects on the ranking system, its because of the principle behind the concept we call ''cheating'' Assuming that point, where its the principle behind an action that is responsible for it being labelled cheating or not, I feel that IF that principle is found in other places, then it warrants being looked at and discussed. A few ppl here have mentioned some specific situations involving this particular type of action, and while i have NO ISSUE AT ALL with farming, monopoly, killing players who compete over resources, I do draw a comparison between the principle of win trading being bad and MC/healing enemy players to gain pvp wins and having that favor returned.

This isnt a blizz like realm, they say they want it to be blizz like.. but they change and modify the rules as they see fit.. war effort is a perfect example...yes they have their reason for doing it and i am not attacking them reasons, im just saying it is not a blizz like realm, its a modified realm. btw, i dont want the changes the guy you quoted was on about... i dont think the farming and monopoly is bad, im just saying this isnt a blizz like realm :) edit: this was my ''one hundered an eleventh birthday'' sorry :P

That is a completely false argument. Win trading is not just against the rules cos of its effects on the ranking system.... its against the rules because of the principle behind what they are doing. Thats why even if u do it 1 time a week it will still be cheating. People who cheat are not only cheating if they damage things.. they are cheating by their action or more accurately, the principle behind their action, not how much they do it or where they do it. Otherwise, we would just tell ppl to win trade more to combat the win traders (in game solution, which is why its not a valid argument, btw) .. so then its a fair playing field where all can win trade.. but ofc thats silly.. because its the principle behind win trading thats bad.. not just the effects. people who cheat are hated because of the principle behind cheating... not just the effects! shame on you for not knowing that. The fact that you think principles have no relevance when deciding if something should be allowed or not is very telling, but often people with no principles think they dont matter at all. MC'ing enemy faction players while they duel with someone on your faction, so they can be healed by another person on your faction, and having that favor, or favors like it, returned, is exactly the same in principle as win trading. if u fail to see that, then it is you who have no clue what the point is. you think i care about devilsaur leather monopoly's? no!! im not on elysium, remember?? i care if people used cheating tactics.. no matter how big or small the gain. and no matter in or out of bg's. cheating is cheating no matter where you are! if ppl dont use actions that are in principle the same as win trading or any other form of cheating.. then i dont care how much gold ppl get or what alliances ppl form. ONLY when ppl actively engage in pvp battles to help the other faction by sheep/MC/heals etc with them favors returned, is it the same as win trading.. but without tactics like that, there is no issue. get it yet? edit: 'blizz rules'' is not valid, this is a pirate server with modified rules. also .. ''show me the quote in ToU'' is a very poor argument, I am asking to have this discussed precisely because it is not in them yet.. and i think it should be discussed to see if it should. new rules are made all the time.

''Blizz like'' or ''check EULA'' is NOT a valid argument .. this in a pirate server that cherry picks the rules it wants to follow, and modifies the rules it wants to. Admins changes rules and makes new ones all the time.. ''blizz like'' is not valid. ''in game solution'' is NOT a valid argument ... many things have in game solutions but they are still not allowed, admins and community discuss each thing individually and decide based on the principle behind it, EG: bots/harassment/griefing even normal BG win trading, all have in game solutions but are still against the rules. ''in game solution'' is NOT a valid argument. ''win trading is ONLY against the rules cos it will break the ranking system'' is fundamentally wrong and so NOT a valid argument. .. if i only win trade once per week... it would still be against the rules, and so it should be, because its the principle behind win trading thats cheating.. not the amount you do it. I am not effected by this, my arguments are not bias, im not on elysium, mafia couldnt stop me even if they wanted to, i encourage the RP element of it and would love them to try this in my server... i just care about fair play and dont like cheating. Most people defending the mafia's co-op PVP win trading have a lot to lose and their arguments are 100% bias. Which is why they have no argument except for 12 year old youtube troll tactics. Mafia tried to get me banned lol childish chicken shit tactics hahahaha mafia fail! cant fight like men haha

last ditch attempt of the exposed troll... ''im only joking'' or ''im not serious when i talk to you'' haha you now fail at back tracking too.

''in game solution'' is NOT a valid argument for why something should be allowed or not allowed. Many things with an in game solution are still not allowed. Bots and the effects they have from 24h farming have an in game solution: kill the bot and farm it every time it spawns and then lol.. send the bot an in game mail saying ''lol no soup for you'' - or take a small farm group and go to the bot's area and tag everything b4 it can. 2x in game solution - but bots are still against the rules - killing / farming bots was a loved activity of mine in retail. hehe Griefing situations often have in game solutions, but thats still against the rules. (often case by case) Harassment often has an in game solution, a horrible one yes but it still has 1: they could gather friends and harass them back even more than they get harassed, but harassment is still against the rules. ''do it back to them'' is NOT a valid argument on its own. even classic BG win trading has an in game solution: you could team up and win trade more than them.. hell we could all just win trade and ranking would be based on who can win trade the most lol .. but ofc thats silly because its the principle behind these things that make them against the rules, not the idea they have no in game solution.... because they often do and are still not ok. each case is looked at individually and then based on the principle or tactic being used, its decided if it should be allowed.. and 'in game solution' is NOT the rule that decides that.

mum jokes? dude thats the bottom of the barrel, even for trolls. oh dear, and you think me saying you fail is just for self empowerment? no, its cos you really do fail.. even at trolling.. lol haha the triggered u call me, is getting more and more ironic by the post your meltdown into the sewers of troll tactics is funny! keep going!

Hey :) Yes i fully understand what normal win trading in bg's is, it is as you have explained... they trade wins with each other, by assisting (in this case allowing them to win without challenge) the other faction to win in a pvp setting. What i am talking about is the principle behind why we say that trading is not ok.. the principle behind what they are doing is unfair, they are, by action or refusal to act, 'helping' the opposite faction to win in a pvp setting... and then returning that help or 'trading' it back to each other. It is not the gains they reap that makes it cheating, or where they are doing it, its the method they employ to win in a pvp setting thats not ok, regardles of where they do it or how much they gain. example: if i win trade just 1 game per week, that would still be cheating. and so it should be. I dont think thats a fair argument, PVP in bg's is still PVP even if 1 player or team refuses to act or even helps the other team. Its a PVP setting with PVP gains, HK'S honor etc. I do understand what youre saying, but I feel because its the principle behind win trading thats not ok, rather than the gains or the place its used, that if that principle is found somewhere else then it warrants being looked at, and after careful examination, decided if a rules should be made or modified or just left alone... Admins modify and change rules often to fit specific situations, so ''blizz like'' is not a valid argument either, you didnt make that 'blizz rules' argument, im just saying is all. All I have said is I feel this specific situation with its PVP elements deserves being looked at, because i think its shares a principle with the reason we say normal bg win trading is not ok, regardless of the gains.

saying that win trading is ONLY against the rules because it could break the ranking system is fundamentally wrong. if i win trade but then stop when i get to rank 6.. or i only do it 1 game per week.. does that make it ok? ... ofc not! why? because its the principle behind win trading that is wrong, not the amount you gain from it. ...and the reason youre getting mad? Well that is because you dont like what i have said, and rather than form a constructive argument like a normal person, you avoid all points raised, openly refuse to read them and insult like a child. .. raging .. angry... entry lvl troll name calling ... lol and u dare to call me triggered? hahahaha priceless irony!

i play on ZK dude :) I dont play on elysium, where this problem seems to happen, the mafia dont effect me and i encourage them to try and take over un'goro on ZK..i love the RP aspect of it. as i said before in a post ''let them take over un'gogo?? let ally scum take over un'goro?? lol not on my watch!'' :P i said i dont play on elysium, to counter the claims im only posting because im butthurt about devilsaurs. but i get them np's and the mafia dont stop me. and couldnt even if they wanted to :) and they do want to stop me, raging youtube trolls on here avoiding all points spouting insults like a tantrum teenager, they even tried to get me banned with a lvl 6 trying to trade me 'gold selling ban gold' multiple times as soon as i logged on to Nosleep after i 1st got involved in this thread... he only did it to me, he wasnt trying random ppl. i posted screen shot in this thread and reported ofc... sad little mafia tactics.. too scared to fight like men hahaha :P

nerds is a term normally associated with intelligence, these guys are more like 12 year old youtube trolls, i would say 'kids' is a better term :) but i like it too when they act tough, avoiding all points and giving it the big un lol :P

Now im responding to you... previous post was talking to everyone about you.. big difference, but you know that.. and you still say what you say.. which is why youre a troll.. you know youre wrong but you say it anyways. You didnt wreck my logic, you avoided it and talked about a few of your own experiences, dismiss/avoid talking about everyone elses experience. While you pretend i had said the things that your points attempted to counter so you can claim victory. like if i ask how many sides a triangle has.. and you answer that 5+5 = 10 and claim you solved the triangle question ... yes youre right, but youre not answering the question that was asked. that is the very essence of a troll... or an idiot.... or both. All you have done is give examples of your own group pvp that are not relevant to the examples that were given by me or a few others here... you know? the ones you openly refused to read? ... and just blurted your own examples acting like they answer the questions being asked here. I never called you a cheat, i wasnt talking about you specifically in the last line of my post, i was explaining why i have a vested interest in this even though im not on elysium. You are getting very angry and mad about my point of view, thats prob cos u have a lot to lose, imo thats prob rl cash. otherwise your anger is really pathetic, kinda like your insults towards me.. you dont have to prove them, you just give your opinion lol. you really are a very poor troll.. did you also learn how to troll from yahoo comments and youtube? hahahahaha Please learn how to troll properly if youre going to put this much effort into, i mean really? are you the best the mafia has? pro mafia forum defender?? hahaha if so then ill repeat my desire for you guys to come un'goro and try this stuff with me.. cos you fail this hard at trolling .. you prob fail equally hard at most things. Learn to read, another thing you fail at, and you might have more success in forming a valid point, rather than childish insults and name calling .. troll lol .. you fail soo hard there is no meme for it.

The reason he is so mad and insulting everyone like a 15 year old, is because he has a LOT too lose from this. Bias statements based purely on his greed and desperation to not lose a RL cash income is very likely Finds it impossible to have an objective opinion, just insults wildly like a child, giving examples of things no one is talking about. AKA: a troll.. and a bad 1... dont expect him to form a decent response to anything you say.. he openly refuses to read what ppl say. im objective because im not on elysium and this doesnt effect me. But i do care about fair play and i HATE cheaters... and the entire principle behind cheating, whatever form it takes.

When did you transfer? How long was it from the last time you logged on after transfer, till the time you 1st logged on and saw the items/gold missing? were you offline for weeks or months? I ask this because it sounds like you have transferred, then been off line a while and been hacked while you were away. Just a thought.

sigh, this will be the last time i respond to you, no offence, but if you admit you cant be bothered to read what i said.. by doing so you refuse to actually understand what i mean.. so then its pointless talking to you. your subjective idea's about me being irrelevant to a topic asking to have rules discussed, when the rules are shared across all servers, is a prime example of your entire attitude. thanks for calling me names, insulting me, and refusing to read what i say before telling me im wrong. laters :)

I have explained in detail why its the same in principle many times on this thread... you have totally missed the entire point about why the comparison between BG win trade and this situation of co-op pvp to win fights, is being made. And your examples are irrelevant because however true they are, they are not relevant to the point being made. The reason you have missed it, i assume, is because you have jumped to the end of the thread without reading anything beforehand (prob cos u cant be bothered or dont think its worth it) which has lead you to make this post, showing your ignorance of the actual point being made when you give so many examples of things that I have not said anything about. Its like if i say ''i thinking skinning people alive is wrong'' and you argue that if someone punches you in the face, you should punch them back.... its an irrelevant point. also lol, im not effected by this so called mafia in the slightest, im not on elysium and i have already told them to come to my server and try to kill me, many time, stating i have no probs with then farming co-op etc etc etc... you even quote me saying this and then you suggest i want to join them or have probs with farming... doh! but again, you would know this if you had bothered to understand the conversation you jumped head 1st into, instead with your pointless examples of things no one is talking about...accusing me of crying cos i cant get devilsaurs, when i can and do get them, im not on that server lol and they dont effect me.. lol. also, your constant statements like... ''youre butthurt and want to join them'' ...or... ''nazi rules just because you suck at politics and get fucked in the ass cause of that'' ...are both insulting and demeaning.. both of which i dont deserve.. never mind how inaccurate they are. try actually reading what someone says b4 u quote them, misrepresent the quote, make statements the quote that conflict with the quote its self, and insult them huh? because atm, its you who sounds angry and how do you put it? ''butthurt''

I dont know, i didnt ask. 100%

nah he is showing someone stealing the skins of the cartel boys, and calling everyone a qq'er with no skill.. or something like that. ^ THIS is the point.... i dont care about them cornering the market, there is no proof of gold selling.. but they are trading wins with each other, opposite factions help each other to win pvp battles and then trade that favor back again. they trade pvp wins... they win trade. hahaha cartel is a bunch of fail boys! :P they are children, thieves, ninja's... gold sellers (prob) .. they have no skill except for ganking and ninja skinning, win trade is the only way they win fights...they try to get ppl banned cos they are too scared to fight like men.... prob get bullied in RL and so have to come to MMO and be the bully to feel good. they also are very scared now.. they tried to get me banned yesterday but they have such childish methods that all that happened is i got them banned... hope your 333 (or more) gold got caught in the ban hammer... or did you have time to move it?? scared little boys crying ... what the matter cartel? got no balls to fight like men? can only win trade and cheat and try to get ppl banned? hahahahah little youtube troll boys hahaha.... well... welcome to big boy school boys. (lvl 6 tried to trade me 333g.. i closed trade window insta every time.. he followed me and tried again 3 times, then he said this) ohhh he sooo wanted me to take that ban gold didnt you boy?? well... grow some balls and come fight me in un'goro.. ill be there, skinning devilsaurs... waiting for you little youtube trolls hahahaha

This guy, lvl 6, just randomly came up to me at mail box and open trade and started putting gold into top bar ...333 ... i closed window.. he did it 2 more times and i closed window and moved away... then he said this. I think he may need investigating, but i know this isnt 100% proof. edit: ZK server, 14:43 game time.