Xaph

It was shown to be nerfed during a patch? From what I read it was scrapped because of a proof of concept video which demonstrated the absurd damage that could be output by rogues stacking spell power. I remember it even being live in tbc beta when arcane mages had a weapon buff that was arcane dmg based 1 shotting people and the response video was a rogue showing spell power melee was in the game already using fiery retributer. I know my memory isn't evidence but anyone have evidence of a patch nerf? Here's the mage vid, still looking for rogue. https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=0ahUKEwja6s6Ah7zWAhUj9YMKHcZSC4sQwqsBCEAwAw&usg=AFQjCNF1sHlk2z9QIx28jtvfnGP_UlkifA

This isn't true. All vanilla servers including this one have nerfed spell damage scaling from items like Fiery Retributer and Fiery Plate Gauntlets for balance reasons.

Reck pally owns rogues. It's no contest.

Prot or Ret are significantly better for levelling. Reckoning or straight Ret. The general advice seems to be that Ret is better but prot might keep you interested if you find seal--->auto attack boring.

It actually would break a couple encounters making them simple for alliance. The biggest case is Loatheb.

Welcome to ret....

It's pretty straightforward according to what the devs stated. In order for them to accept that seal stacking was in the game during vanilla they require proof in video form or an official blizzard statement from patch 1.8-1.12 that demonstrates it existed during that period. Despite evidence that it was in the game in tbc and stated in multiple places that it existed in vanilla prior to patch 1.8, they have decided that it was fixed behind the scenes and then reappeared during tbc.

He was correct, just put it simply in terms of TPS so it could be added to other calculations. TPS has to be divided by 10, the cd on holy shield. So if you took your 74.1 base threat per block, the TPS would be per holy shield 74.1 x 4 / 10 = 29.64 TPS

Please take it to private messages and do not derail this thread. Widows Remorse with 1000 sp would be 153.6 damage + base SoR damage. This does not factor in talent scaling.

1 sp = 0.22 dps if you're using consecrate, JoR, and holy shield on cd getting all blocks and hits. That means that 500 sp would be about 110 dps. Now I don't know how threat is calculated and that number doesn't include any of the scaling talents but that's the correct scaling number for 1h SoR regardless of weapon speed. Based of the threat discussion in the warrior forums we should expect with a buffed paladin 1 holy dmg = 1.9 threat. Which would mean that for 1 sp using consecrate, JoR, and holy shield on cd, 1 sp = 0.418 threat.

The reason weapon speed doesn't matter is because the only difference its going to make is on the initial portion of SoR damage that scales with weapon speed, which is why he averaged it. The difference is minuscule in terms of the TPS unless of course you get crit and get a reckoning swing. The scaling portion of SoR is again tied to weapon speed but that doesn't matter when you use the dps rather than damage caused to calculate tps. To me the big question is whether they are going to bug fix Imp SoR to also affect spell damage scaling in which case the TPS of a pally would change depending on the fight as you would be able to stack more or less spell damage accordingly. I'm assuming that the end game tanking gear being used are from that other thread where we are assuming Naxx gear and heavily focused on defensive rather than tps gear?

Yes, I realize there is a difference between theoretical optimum and actual performance, but it really is easy to calculate a paladin's theoretical maximum TPS if we had the stat values. Again, I would do the calculation assuming infinite mana based on JoW.

Everyone in this thread seems to not address what the previous person said. The question is pretty straightforward.... Killerduki's only real retort to what has been stated is TPS of Paladin vs. Warrior. All we need to do then is calculate TPS of Pally, obviously not using DPS's silly comparison to Fury, as we are talking about tanks and not outright TPS. The only information we need, which has never been stated in this thread yet, is the stats of a raid buffed prot paladin in BIS Naxx gear. The working assumption is that mana is infinite because of JoW, and that rage is variable because of avoidance. Therefore we can easily calculate what Paladin TPS is if someone actually posted the stats instead of constantly making up random numbers and saying "go see for yourself". Until the actual stats are posted, everyone is comparing what Killerduki has called "frogs to cabbages". (Best analogy ever)

So it's an intentionally scripted bug? Why do pallies always get hit hardest by these = / HoJ is weak for reckbombs then, what would you guys suggest for your 2 trinkets? Blackhand's and Mael? or that Wyrmthalak trinket?

Have you ever had HoJ proc from the reckoning swings?

Anyone else noticing that reckoning swings are only proccing items on the first swing? Weapon damage procs and items like HoJ don't seem to be able to proc on extra swings.

Yes, punctuation is important...... I clearly said the guy pulled 900+ dps in full naxx gear. However, the poster hopes that in melee the hunter can pull at least 400 dps....

In the thread itself it says that's in full Naxx gear from RANGE. He hopes the hunter can pull 400 dps in the best of the best gear which is never demonstrated.

I really hope this change goes through. To give you an idea of what the buff means, currently for 1hand 1 SP = 2.75 AP and for 2hand 1 SP = 2.97 AP. With the buff, 1hand 1 SP = 3.07 AP and for 2hand 1 SP = 3.33 AP. This would mean 30 sp would be equivalent to 100 ap for 2h SoR. Pretty awesome. This is with full consecrate and JoR usage and doesn't account for hit or crit.

I like how Imbaslap in that thread demands proof that blizz didn't stealth nerf JoC but also demanded without proof that judgment stacking was stealth nerfed...

I'm not sure what you mean by abilities scaled cost. Some rough calculations using 500 SP and 800 AP 2.0 base speed 1.33 hasted speed 500 * .108 = 54 54 * 2 = 108 / 1.33 = 81.2 * 1.15 = 93.38 93.38 - 54 = 39.38 DPS from the proc and sp scaling I'm not sure what the base SoR dmg is for 2.0 speed but lets be generous and give it 40 per hit 40 * 1.15 = 46 46 / 2 = 23 46 / 1.33 = 34.59 34.59 - 23 = 11.59 So the proc would give for SoR scaling, at 500 SP, a dps increase of 11.59 + 39.38 = 50.97 AP scaling 800 / 14 = 57.14 57.14 * 2.00 speed = 114.28 damage 114.28 / 1.33 = 85.92 dps A dps increase of 85.92 - 57.14 = 28.78 Factoring in the base dps of the weapon we can figure out the dps of the hasted weapon (base + sor + hasted ap scaling) from the proc alone. Base DPS = 58 / 1.33 = 43.61 43.61 + 50.97 + 28.78 = 123.36 Hasted dps of the weapon with SoR scaling at 500 sp and 800 ap would be 123.36. An incredible dps score. If we also factor in the added strength you'd get an extra 2.51 dps for a total of 125.87. This is incredible. Let's take a look at 2 other examples for comparison, IF and Kalimdor's Revenge because they both have procs that scale with SP. IF 2.4 speed 43.5 base dps Proc's DPS value @ 5% proc rate: I'm not sure but let's use 5% for the IF proc rate because that's what seems to have been floating around. The dps of the proc at 500 SP, not including the scaling of the white hit, but using the base 43.5 dmg is as follows. 500 * .092 = 46 * 1.15 = 52.9 We'll be conservative and say the base SoR dmg is 20 so 20 + 52.9 = 72.9. Again, let's be conservative and give the pally 800 AP. Added white DPS would be 800 / 14 = 57.14 IF gives 2 attacks which means (((43.5 + 57.14) * 2.4) + (72.9 * 2.4)) * 2 = (241.54 + 174.96) * 2 = 833 damage At 5% proc rate, we'd have 60 / (2.4 / 2) = 50 attacks with SoR 50 * .05 = 2.5 (2.5 * 833) / 60 = 34.71 DPS The IF proc would bring the base DPS of the weapon to 43.5 + 34.71 = 78.21 Now, this is a considerable difference between the two weapons. Kalimdor's Revenge 3.2 speed 81.9 dps This one is pretty straight forward to calculate. Proc DPS at 5% rate is as follows. 258.5 + 500 = 758.5 60 / (3.2 / 2) = 37.5 37.5 * .05 = 1.875 1.875 * 758.5 = 1422.19 / 60 = 23.7 DPS The added dps from strength would be 3.77 The base DPS of the weapon including proc would then be. 81.9 + 23.7 + 3.77 = 109.37 The MCP clearly wins out in the scaling department. The IF calculation is missing the added benefit of an OH but I think given these numbers we can see that the MCP is clearly the best. Comparing to the best weapon out of Naxx for us Corrupted Ashbringer which the dps is ~ 110 I think you're right about MCP as the best weapon in the game for Ret with SoR scaling. To make it even clearer, IF @ 2000 ap and 500 sp would be 95.35 and the MCP would be scaling much higher as well. As a side note, comparing that number to other prominent 2h weapons I think shows that the 1h spell dmg build is actually entirely dependent on maximum consecrate uptime as even with the increased uptime on vengeance, the dps difference is quite large.

True haha. Given that buff though, the dps is somewhat similar to IF factoring in the proc. I imagine that most endgame 2h will out dps it by a good chunk, not to mention having to enchant every single one you farm haha.

Does the buff remain after a weapon swap?

This would be a massive buff to spell dmg ret dps.

Anyone happen to know where a list of proc rates for trinkets and/or weapons are for Elysium, or happen to know off the top of their heads? It's easy to calculate the dps of trinkets like HoJ because they state a 2% proc rate but for trinkets like Maelstrom it can vary widely depending on the ppm or %. Cheers, Xaph