Xaph

Hello, I was hoping to get a discussion going about the potential utility that a ret paladin can bring to a raid based around their uptime on item procs. I know this has been documented for items like Nightfall but perhaps someone might be familiar with the benefits of other items which can increase raid dps like http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=12798. Annihilator Binds when equipped Main HandAxe 49 - 92 DamageSpeed 1.70 (41.5 damage per second) Durability 90 / 90 Requires Level 58 Chance on hit: Reduces an enemy's armor by 200. Stacks up to 3 times. I don't know what the typical armor level is on a boss after sunder/cor/ff but armor pen does get better as the targets armor gets lower. This axe in particular is fast enough that the proc rate would remain high while it can be used for a 1h spell dmg ret build. Anyone come across anything else?

The comparison with Nightfall is true if the melee and caster raid dps is equal, but that's why I mentioned that a melee oriented raid comp would benefit even more. Of course the opposite is true if you're caster heavy, but the nice thing is its a weapon so you can swap it depending on the fight.

So I've read up on Fiery Plate Gauntlets and Storm Gauntlets and see that they don't scale with spell damage and have a 100% proc rate, which is how the damage is added. But, does anyone know if they are supposed to work like seals and proc other procs or are they just a static damage increase?

Amazing news!! I wanted to add that the procs from both of these items do not proc vengeance when they crit. I know it isn't much for those on Anathema but its a HUGE deal for Vengeance uptime on Elysium, especially with SoR builds. On a 3.6 speed 2h the number of chances at a crit goes from 16.67 to 50 on your auto attack alone. The damage also doesn't proc seal of wisdom or seal of light as well. Fiery Plate Gauntlets Binds when equipped HandsPlate 379 Armor +10 Fire Resistance Durability 45 / 45 Requires Level 53 Equip: Adds 4 fire damage to your weapon attack. and Storm Gauntlets Binds when equipped HandsMail 218 Armor +7 Intellect +10 Fire Resistance Durability 40 / 40 Requires Level 54 Equip: Adds 3 Lightning damage to your melee attacks. Equip: Increases damage done by Nature spells and effects by up to 21.

I was thinking another weapon to bump your personal dps, and replace nightfall debuff w/ annihilator

Thinking about it, the debuff lasts for 45s, you could even swap weapons for 30ish seconds. You'd have to do the math but outside of a really bad stretch of procs it might be worth it.

I did mention the nightfall debuff for personal dps but I think the increased vengeance uptime would more than make up for it as it would boost both physical and holy damage. It also might be because Nightfall on Elysium is the 3.2 speed 67 dps version, but either way the uptime on vengeance would be over 15% more than with Nightfall. I think it would take AQ40 + Naxx gear for Nightfall to pull more than 50 dps ahead and at that point the melee dps would benefit immensely. Anyways, just thought I'd speculate and run some numbers. After reading up on yours and Saphael's posts in the past I think ret pally can provide more raid support than initially thought but it requires everyone else to be on board. The spell damage SoR build really opens up some cool possibilities because of the kind of scaling.

I think that's partially true if we're talking about using SoR and going for procs. The only difference between the two weapons for SoR spell dmg build are the 10.8 vs 9.2 scaling with spell power, the base 22 dps difference and the nightfall proc for your own dps. The 1h will let you use a solid oh for extra spell dmg and you will have much higher vengeance uptime due to the faster 1h. You'll also be able to use higher ranks of consecrate if you use JoW but that doesn't really matter for the comparison. I do agree you will see a personal dps loss but I think it's interesting that ret can use items and not have too much of a dps penalty because we don't have any instant abilities that scale with AP other than SoC. It's cool too because it's just a weapon swap and no other gear meaning you could do it during phases where melee are more prominent or on bosses. Just a thought.

Fair enough, I was just hoping to get some discussion going! That axe, from what i've ready can be maintained at a full 3 stacks. If that's the case then we get 600 armor pen for the raid. Going off of the AQ40 armor values since I can't find any other ones for these servers shows bosses having 6220 armor. source https://github.com/elysium-project/server/issues/1049 That means that Sunder + COR + FF (do these all stack) would make the boss's armor 6220 - 2250 - 640 - 505 = 2825 With 3 stack Annihilator that would be 2825 - 600 = 2225 Based on a post from Ownedcore back in 2006, again if the source is wrong I'm open! source http://www.ownedcore.com/forums/world-of-warcraft/world-of-warcraft-guides/2206-warrior-damage-mechanics.html AC dmg reduction can be caluclated as follows: Their DPS decrease = Your_AC / (Your_AC + Their_Level * 85 + 400) For no Annihilator that means 2825/(2825+60*85+400) = 33.93% With Annihilator 2225/(2225+60*85+400) = 28.80% A dps increase of 5.13% If we then take your guild's last AQ40 run and use only the warrior and hunter dps numbers because I don't know how to control for poison damage for rogues, the unfiltered dps number across all bosses would be 1431 dps. Increasing just the warriors and hunter dps by 5% would be a total of 71.55 dps. Now I don't know if these numbers are accurate based on the formulas I used, and again I didn't take into account the rogues. In addition, your raid uses a boomkin meaning I can only imagine you're more caster focused. What are your thoughts?

I'm on Elysium, wish I was Anathema = /. The progressive patches are brutal when all it really is is nerfing itemization for some classes.

That makes sense. I wonder given current scaling if the armor would provide more raid dps than nightfall depending on how melee heavy your guild is?

It definitely is not procing vengeance when it crits and it doesn't proc judgement of wisdom or light so that is unfortunate. I crafted the gloves thinking I'd get better vengeance uptime and better mana regen but doesn't look like they're worth it = (.

I know it's not supposed to scale with spellpower, my question is whether it adds the damage to the attack and interacts with procs like seals do or if it counts as a proc and cannot therefore proc other procs. (that sounded better in my head) In any event, it doesn't proc vengeance on crit (definite bug) and it doesn't proc judgement of wisdom or light (another bug).

StafordDev has said it isn't supposed to do that until 1.12. https://github.com/elysium-project/server/issues/1555

I've experimented with a ton of different combinations and I find that a fast 2h with a dmg proc combined with fiery weapon and SoR is the absolute best. If you don't have the cash to enchant fiery then go with a slow 2h + SoC. I run with BoW up instead of BoM and never have issues. IMO if you don't have a fast 2h w/ dmg proc and fiery enchant then SoC is the best option.

Theloras seems to be the resident expert, so this is somewhat directed at him. Do you happen to know if any procs other than lifestealing or Kalimdor's Revenge, like the frost and shadow oils scale with spell power? As a side, I've read a lot of the theory craft behind yours and Saphael's spell dmg ret pally build, but I can't see how 2h scaling isn't superior w/ weapons that have lifestealing procs. Cheers, Xaph

What's your dps like w/ Neretzek? I imagine that 2h ret with spell scaling proc would be strong dps, better than hunter at least.

No, the coefficient is 9.2% x weapon speed for 1h and 10.8% x weapon speed for 2h

Anyone know how jotc bonus dmg is calculated? The spell coefficient of SOR for 2h says 12.5% and atm I have +92 bonus dmg on my JOTC which should translate into +11.5 dmg per swing but currently I'm getting +32 dmg a swing. My weapon speed is 3.2 and I have no other +dmg items. Thanks, Xaph

Anyone know if SOC is on the melee or spell hit table? And, if holy is supposed to be partially resisted? Both the proc and judgement are being partially resisted.

Thanks a lot Theloras, informative as always.

Hello! I've been reading these forums and was excited to start a new pally. I'm currently 19 but I haven't been able to find any info on how sotc has been implemented on this server. It seems to give the 40% as but the attack power buff doesnt increase damage initially. It seems to be a flat out damage reduction with the 40% attack speed. Does anyone have any info on how sotc has been implemented? I'm on Elysium server. Cheers, Xaph

Thanks for the info. Is it still possible to seal-twist and get the bonus from the ap?