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Professor Putricide yells: Good news, everyone! Great news, Elysium team. Thanks for the constant updates. I would like to repeat this caution: a launch with a fixed date & time on a Saturday is going to hurt your chances of a smooth launch. I understand why you would want to chase the numbers to break records and whatnot for the flashy report numbers, but consequently a struggling launch may not be something that helps the rebranding. Anyway good luck, see you then.

Keyl got the neck on his 2nd MC or something if I recall, quite ridiculous. It probably had to do with bugged loot tables.

Like the video editing work. Topics chosen could be more interesting though, since I think everyone is doing leveling/class guides right now. For example, early instance guides with all quests to maximize xp and rewards. Here's a list of dungeon guides: http://www.wow-pro.com/dungeon_and_raid_guides/dungeon_guides There's a lot of guides in there you could convert into video form.

I agree with you on this. I have made this point quite a few times for Elysium back in August 2016 (old thread, do not necro). This post I linked was me answering to Pottu and anostrich (now named "Yaga"), lead developer of Elysium. Their philosophy is fundamentally different to what raiders of vanilla private servers enjoy, that is a progression. Doesn't matter what kind of player you are or how experienced, they cater to give you a flavor of the delicious vanilla cake, not the actual ingredients. There was a PR announcement by Unstop (now "member" rank, was admin) in September this year about buffing content. Excerpt: The positive we can take is that they do listen to the community, by buffing content a little bit. Elysium however never had the intention of buffing content to bring back a retail-like progression experience. Their target audience is the casual/new player base who have never played vanilla to come experience the content, not the experienced vanilla enthusiasts who've been around many servers already. I'd say most of the new vanilla players are all veteran post-vanilla players, who know how to play already. They'll get the experience the rest of us will get, which is a faceroll experience. Not to the extent of Kronos, but not off by much as someone who has raided both for months. Do not forget, Nostalrius Molten Core pugs could clear it within 100mins without voice comm or raiding gear, just need some prebis pieces. The really good pugs could clear MC within 60 minutes and fully clear BWL too. MC may have been an "entry level" raid as people label it, but remember, emulation means trying to emulate the vanilla WoW - which is when almost everyone had to work hard/learn classes/strats/communicate on voice comm to clear MC. Boss timer addons definitely has a part to play in this, but in general, all trash and bosses in MC and BWL on Nost had low HP enough to ignore most time-based phase mechanics, like Ragnaros submerge, Firemaw/Golemagg tank swaps to reset debuffs, Vael's multiple tank swaps or ignore the core mechanics of the fight by nuking Lucifron/Gehennas first before their adds, AoE Sulfuron adds through their minuscule heals, ignore threat mechanics of Razorgore p2 as his hp is so little, bypass P2 Onyxia by melee blowing CDs and nuking her from below, I could go on about every single fight on Nost. It's just pathetic in terms of tuning, no healer or DPS comes close to going out of mana/resource. Yet we pretend private servers (even the current best) can come close to emulating what retail was like. Nost did have some stealth buffs on bosses to make them do more damage (like Broodlord, Chrom, Nef) which was great. Being a full BiS tank and dying on these fights due to a bad combo timing of blast wave/mortal strike is great, I personally enjoyed the danger and having to be quick with defensive CDs if not flasked (Titans). Even King Gordok in DM Tribute did insane damage on Nost, which was fun. But these examples of raid bosses are just too few, and their HPs too low, to be a real threat in a long fight. We spend more time running in the instance, than actually killing bosses, as they die so quickly without world buffs even. Asking for Scriptcraft like experience is never going to happen on Nos/Ely. Like I pointed out, this team has their own philosophy and target audience and the semi-hardcore/hardcore audience is not part of that, much like Blizzard nowadays ya? Anyways, just be patient and hope the next-gen vanilla servers will actually tune for the semi-hardcore/hardcore player base like the original vanilla team did. Example of why Molten Core was hard on retail:- (From one of my posts on the warrior forums, talking about Patch 1.6 warrior revamp) This was posted to point out why the Main Tank of the World First Nefarian kill was using Mortal Strike in his rotation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ1OUeG1poE Molten Core (Patch 1.1 or whatever) was done in suboptimal talent specs for ALL classes. (Rogue revamp was Patch 1.12!) Warrior was the first one to revamp in Patch 1.6 with BWL release, but Shield Slam (31 talent point) only did moderate threat still. So Arms spec MT was still pretty normal.

Good stuff. Especially like the stats matrix. Bookmarked!

1) Heroic strike is a next melee swing consuming skill. That comment is saying that your rage gain from an auto melee swing is lost because you use that melee swing for the heroic strike. The offhand has nothing to do with it, because heroic strike is not using both main hand and offhand, it only uses the main hand. Offhand rage gain should happen regardless of MH use. 2) This is what Slippry said already. 2.2k damage from the boss is a physical attack. Damage taken formula currently isn't taking armor reduction into account + 1 other bug which Nano will report in the change log. That has been fixed recently so you cannot source old Nost videos as they are irrelevant now. edit can't use a,b,c) listing because b with ) makes an emoticon. These forums ...

Nefarian World First video: Original prot tree was really bad. These were the other 2 31-talent point skills (Fury/Prot): Shield Discipline - 1/1 points While active, increases the amount of damage absorbed by your shield by 50% and increases the damage done by your Shield Bash ability by 200%. Lasts 20 seconds. Bloodthirst Activates after dealing a killing blow. Your next melee weapon attack deals a 100% increased damage. In patch 1.6: BWL was released. Alongside revamped Warrior talent tree:- Warriors (Source: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_1.6.0) Due to significant talent changes, Warriors will have all talent points refunded and can be respent. Hamstring - Will now cause damage to targets immune to movement slowing effects. Movement slowing effect improved. Improved Hamstring - Design changed. No longer improves the movement slowing effect. It is now a 3 point talent that gives a 5/10/15% chance to immobilize the target for 5 seconds. Booming Voice - In addition to increasing duration, this talent will now increase the area of effect of Battle Shout and Demoralizing Shout by 10/20/30/40/50%. Battle Shout - Tooltip updated to display area of effect (in yards). Demoralizing Shout - Tooltip updated to display area of effect (in yards). Improved Berserker Rage - No longer increases the duration of the effect. The talent will now generate 5/10 rage when Berserker Rage is used. Improved Demoralizing Shout - Effectiveness increase from talent increased to 8/16/24/32/40%. Piercing Howl - No longer has a prerequisite (Improved Demoralizing Shout). Death Wish - Is now usable while under a Fear effect, which will also remove the Fear effect. Bloodthirst - Design changed. Bloodthirst is now an instant melee attack that causes damage equal to 30% of the warrior's attack power. In addition, the next 5 successful melee attacks will restore health. Concussion Blow - No longer requires purchase of the Improved Revenge talent. Shield Discipline - Removed and replaced by the new talent Shield Slam. New Talent: Shield Slam - Slam the target with your shield, causing damage and has a 50% chance to dispel 1 magic effect on the target. Also causes a moderate amount of threat. Requires the purchase of the Concussion Blow talent. Heroic Strike/Sunder Armor/Revenge/Mocking Blow - Tooltips updated to indicate the additional threat caused by these abilities. There have been no changes to the amount of threat caused. One of the most popular tank spec at the time was 31/5/15 talent spec. I didn't theorycraft back then, if it was the best or not, but it was recommended to me. You get most of your Arms stuff with a useful skill like Mortal Strike because it was legitimately better than everything else at that point. Considering Shield Slam was doing "moderate amount of threat" it was probably still not worth getting for this MT. I was also using the 31/5/15 spec in retail for tanking before switching to full prot, late into BWL progression. Regarding Rage: Rage from damage dealt was never the problem on Nost. I talked to Nano on Discord today and he said there would be a changelog before the relaunch stating what was fixed in the rage generation calculation, not formula. Most likely what Slippry said which is armor reduction not calculated in rage gain + something else.

What is the agenda here? That no fresh realm be opened? That would be ridiculous considering the exposure of the project. It is about the manner of opening a new realm without it monopolizing the mass leveling population long-term. Since the latest realm is the most attractive for new players - closer to equal footing. Anyway, it's probably too late for any of that discussion now.

The reason I have to keep "opening new posts" is because you blatantly take my comments out of context. Like you did for the "ie." and wrote a whole paragraph about how weapon speed effects enchant procs, as if I didn't know that already. Yet again you do this with your new latest comment. I'm starting to think you're trolling me or something. "In that window" means 10 swings is taken as a TIME stamp, not just 10 straight swings. I also bolded "factors" like parry-haste. This is talking about the extra attacks from parry-haste, increasing the proc chance of the weapon. Where did you get that I said proc rate is increased? Moreover, why are you lecturing me about it? That's 2 comments I've had to post to clarify one thing from a 2 sentence post. a) No it doesn't. Period. That's what I've been talking about this entire bloody (and regretful) time. Just because every tank on Kronos used it, does not make it better. Your post is not just about proc rate of enchants as you factored it in to specifically tanking situations. So I'm explaining to you why +15 agi enchant is better for tanking than proc based enchants. You will probably quote me again in this post and misunderstand yet another thing and go on another lecture, so allow me to save you the time by leaving. Cycle of this thread clearly. Try tanking when you have Ahlaundoh or Actus breathing up your neck, you will quickly realize what I've been saying.

Please read the context of my "ie." before making assumptions of what I said. What this means: Take a ~30 sec fight, your total swings with a slow wep is ~10 swings. So you rely on a Crusader proc to occur in that window (excluding other factors like parry-haste), the chance for that to proc is less compared to a longer duration fight. Also, you need that proc to occur in the first 15 seconds in order for you to make the most of it. This is also one of the reasons TF is not an ideal weapon, if it doesn't proc early, your Fury Warrs should be upto your neck on threat with that slow 1.9 speed - although TF is a lot better once they fixed the proc-rate to 25%. Still, some short fights it's better to go with DB to start with high initial threat. Honestly, I don't know how you can defend a proc-based TPS setup in a competitive raid setting. When I used Deathbringer as an example, I meant it for the high top end damage, it might as well have no proc for all I care. I'm astonished you actually used the DB proc for your gearing theory. When you're fully world buffed (along with your DPS), you can near the crit-cap for your weapon skill. Along with your hit cap and maximized STR/AP. You get maximum amount of damage out of each of your 10 swings, along with each of your Shield Slams, whether it crits or not. Your +15 agi enchant helps you near that crit cap. The consistency of the high threat is key to gearing in an increasingly aggressive damage dealing scene. We don't wait for initial aggro anymore, you rage pool pre-fight and dump your rage as do your DPS warriors, there is no room for a drought of procs. TL;DR: Use +15 agi if you want to gear for pure stats, and not gear for procs.

@Undertanker You missed the point of my 2 posts. Threat generation scales more with offensive gear stats than procs (proc items or enchants). Rage formula correction will definitely have an impact on the enchants, more people with Crusader for the bigger swings/Shield Slams. I reckon top guild tanks will still stick to +15 agi though, as most of the fights lasts 20-45 seconds, ie. fewer swings with slow weps, less chance of Crusader to proc.

Rage formula needs to be corrected. I don't think "changed" is the right word. Never had an Ironfoe on Nost, so I can't say how good it is vs. DB/TF assuming they correct the rage formula. The proc rate may have been low (2.7% old Allakhazam comment), as the top DPS on Nost used R14 weapons, not Ironfoe. These 2 factors dictate your gear setup (armor, weapon, enchants): How hard are your top DPS pushing? (Without world buffed DPS, you might as well fall asleep as a tank) Are your healers capable of keeping you alive with a ~410-420 defense build on Nost in BWL? It's mostly a trade between 1 and 2. My optimal gear setup unbuffed gave 18.6% crit, hit cap, 674 AP with 424 defense in Patch 1.8 itemization on Nost in BWL. I think NOPE/Coal tanks went even crazier on the trade. Crusader enchant is far too inconsistent for a 30-40 second fight vs. crit from 15 agi. Like I said, it depends on your DPS. If they consistently generate massive threat, you will have to consistently do even more threat. Ps. To the forum mods/admins: Numbered lists don't work on these forums, you can't edit your comment after a certain time period and you can only post once an hour in the same thread!

This should be appropriate for the Warrior class forums as it is a discussion on enchants effecting tanking scenarios. Fights on Nost were generally pretty short, so I personally do not like proc based game play (enchants/items). Even Thunderfury is not an ideal weapon for some cases, like Vael. I reckon Zetox will be pretty quick out with a bug report on the rage generation formula used here. (Kalgan) Nost did not have the correct formula, I don't know the formula Elysium used. Maybe a developer (Sidsukana?) could chime in and inform us. Some interesting TPS cases for weapons: Deathbringer vs. Thunderfury <1min fights, Kalgan's rage formula. Windfury with the above for horde. Lifestealing is debatable. I personally think it's ridiculous. If you have top DPS in your raid pushing your aggro, a weapon enchant will hardly make any difference. What you want is world buffs + max crit, AP with 8% minimum hit gear setup. Stats will do it for you when your DPS is pushing raidstats records, not procs. So I will always favor +15 agi over procs.

What I think is confusing is that the Nost community (not team) is split between 2 websites, some of us traversing both. Would be great if this one is updated to a more user-friendly interface asap and it made clear that we should move the conversations (like returning guilds and so forth) over here.

So I studied the code. Very happy to see Elemental Dmg implemented! Great work, Sidsukana! Hats off to you. Below are 3 excerpts from the function CalculateMeleeDamage case MELEE_HIT_CRIT: //normal melee crit calculations //bonus damage crit calculation: + for (uint8 i = 0; i < m_weaponDamageCount[damageInfo->attackType]; i++) + damageInfo->subDamage[i].damage = uint32((damageInfo->subDamage[i].damage) * float((200.0f + mod) / 100.0f)); So when your melee attack crits, the bonus dmg ("subDamage") will also crit. Below is the 2nd excerpt, the part where the melee subdamage (elemental dmg for TF) calculation is done. Highlights:- Extracting bonus damage spell school (Physical or elemental type) Target immunity check (function stops here if target is immune) Calculating the bonus damage "subdamage" Calculating the armor reduction on the subdamage (if it is a physical school) + bool immune = true; + + for (uint8 i = 0; i < m_weaponDamageCount[damageInfo->attackType]; i++) + { + SubDamageInfo *subDamage = &damageInfo->subDamage[i]; + subDamage->damageSchoolMask = GetSchoolMask(GetWeaponDamageSchool(damageInfo->attackType, i)); + + if (damageInfo->target->IsImmuneToDamage(subDamage->damageSchoolMask)) + { + subDamage->damage = 0; + continue; + } + else + immune = false; + + subDamage->damage = CalculateDamage(damageInfo->attackType, false, i); + // Add melee damage bonus + subDamage->damage = MeleeDamageBonusDone(damageInfo->target, subDamage->damage, damageInfo->attackType, nullptr, DIRECT_DAMAGE, 1, i == 0); + subDamage->damage = damageInfo->target->MeleeDamageBonusTaken(this, subDamage->damage, damageInfo->attackType, nullptr, DIRECT_DAMAGE, 1, i == 0); + + // Calculate armor reduction + if(subDamage->damageSchoolMask == SPELL_SCHOOL_MASK_NORMAL) + { + damageInfo->cleanDamage += subDamage->damage; + subDamage->damage = CalcArmorReducedDamage(damageInfo->target, subDamage->damage); + damageInfo->cleanDamage -= subDamage->damage; + } + + damageInfo->totalDamage += subDamage->damage; + } Weapon bonus damage component works (elemental or physical) Melee swing crit will also contain bonus damage crit value (elemental or physical) Armor reduction will only apply to the bonus damage that is physical in nature. Thunderfury component is in a nature elemental school so it will not be effected. As mentioned by the above posters. Nostalrius core does not have the above working. So I hope this will be implemented on launch. I'll definitely redo my last year's TF report when the server is up. Edit: 3rd Excerpt TF component can also resist. So here's the part of the code in the same function that handles bonus damage absorb and resistance. // Calculate absorb & resists - damageInfo->target->CalculateDamageAbsorbAndResist(this, damageInfo->damageSchoolMask, DIRECT_DAMAGE, damageInfo->damage, &damageInfo->absorb, &damageInfo->resist, true); - damageInfo->damage -= damageInfo->absorb + damageInfo->resist; - if (damageInfo->absorb) + for (uint8 i = 0; i < m_weaponDamageCount[damageInfo->attackType]; i++) { - damageInfo->HitInfo |= HITINFO_ABSORB; - damageInfo->procEx |= PROC_EX_ABSORB; + SubDamageInfo *subDamage = &damageInfo->subDamage[i]; + + damageInfo->target->CalculateDamageAbsorbAndResist(this, subDamage->damageSchoolMask, DIRECT_DAMAGE, subDamage->damage, &subDamage->absorb, &subDamage->resist, true); + damageInfo->totalDamage -= subDamage->absorb + subDamage->resist; + subDamage->damage -= subDamage->absorb + subDamage->resist; + + if (subDamage->absorb) + { + damageInfo->HitInfo |= HITINFO_ABSORB; + damageInfo->procEx |= PROC_EX_ABSORB; + } + + if (subDamage->resist) + damageInfo->HitInfo |= HITINFO_RESIST; }

I have to agree with the OP. This is a proven problem when you have identical servers competing with each other on different patch cycles. This problem will not manifest in Day 1. It will take a few months, slowly degrading the leveling population of the old server. Meaning, you will eventually only see heavily geared people raid logging and PvP will only exist for the few max levels who wish to pursue it, while the PvP audience already finished their ranking. Due to the lack of new 60s to keep the PvP scene, the PvP population pool suffers and wanes; providing less rank points, limiting bracket 1 slots and making ranking more for the hardcore on this realm. Additionally, due to the lack of new 60's to gear up in 5/10 mans, the scene shrinks. Guilds will not have the new people they need to replace people who have quit, so guilds will have to merge or collapse, creating a lot of tension. Social media and all forms of self-marketing platforms encourage new players to roll on the fresh realm. This is natural, people want new players to have fun while they level, to find an active PvP population at all levels and to have a proper progressive experience at level 60 with Patch 1.4 items. There is only one realm that offers them this experience. This cycle will always favor the newer realm. It will essentially become the main realm. AKA. Center of focus. The older realm becoming the "PTR" realm meme has already begun, if you look around the various forums. I have no doubt the team has already discussed this, they know of the consequence. What are the plans to keep the older realm an attractive place for new players, not just short-term but long-term? Just ask the community to police it? Because it won't, that didn't work when you asked the community for Elysium's population growth prior to Nostalrius core, that will not work now or in the future or ever. It will divide the community. Premium players with almost full gear in current version, and are interesting to build a new character (very few)Yes, I have invested a lot into the old server from Day 1, but once the new realm comes online, I'm there. You cannot pass up the experience of a fresh launch if you like MMOs. The world PvP will flourish. The community will be hustling & bustling all over the world; questing, gathering mats, doing 5 mans, making friends and enemies, while the old server folks sit on their barrels and wagons in Ironforge waiting for the BG queue to pop or the clock to tick 7:00 to start heading out to clear farmed raids. The eff would you choose? Edit: To be a bit more productive, I decided to list some possible solutions:- Server caps. Manipulate server caps to ensure people are rolling on both to avoid longer queues. Problem occurs if neither realm reaches cap - forced queues would have to be done, which wouldn't be ideal. (Please do instant queue-skip for 60s, it would suck to delay raids) Launch the fresh server at the same progression state as the Old PvP server. So new players have a choice if they want to join existing guilds on old server or form new teams with undergeared people with a slow starting raiding scene. This will make management of the servers much easier, as patching will be in the exact same stage, including bug and item fixes. Allows for later server merge if population on one dwindles. Pre-announce TBC exclusively first on the old server. So TBC lovers can level and keep the leveling scene alive while waiting for the TBC swap. This might be useless if another project releases a good TBC. (kek) Anyway, I doubt any significant progress has gone into making that possibility real. (Unpopular Option) Release old servers (PvP and PvE) a significant amount of time before the fresh server, forcing new lifeblood to level (or continue leveling) to max level on the old server and join struggling guilds who are all going to be massively recruiting people, to replace lost raiders. This is a band-aid fix. Once the fresh realm is up the problem of lack of levelers will return. Or a combination of the above.

Glad to hear Nost is continuing on. This most certainly is a massive challenge for Valkyrie, considering the media and popularity of Nost and the legacy scene. Appreciate someone taking on the task. Wish you all the best with it and hope it is online soon!

Glad to hear about the difficulty changes! Updated timeline looks great. Thanks for the update.

The Axemen speedruns were famous, there was a whole competitive scene for it in vanilla. Their 2nd video I believe was the fastest MC then. Anyways bumping my earlier comment for visibility:- Quote This is another ambiguous argument. In retail, people did speed runs. That is not, nor are guilds using world buffs, a standard for the difficulty of a content. Those who use it as a baseline, and none have in this thread to my knowledge, are obviously asking for a Mythic level experience in vanilla, may I ask you, who asked for this? I'm stating the facts which you agree are true, that Elysium is using 1.12 (Naxx+) talents and gear for Molten Core progression. This, in essence, is a cheapened experience of progressing Molten Core. An emulation that gives only the faintest of tastes, if not just the fragrance, of what actual MC progression should be. It takes teamwork for the most basic of tasks for the first time around. If Elysium was instant-60 or a high experience-rate server, that makes sense. It is to give a basic, fundamental experience of vanilla was like, than people can quit and move on to other things. Elysium, however, is a 1x server, it has implications that it will try to provide an original vanilla feeling, where people can spend hundreds of hours. A cheapened progression experience, followed by weeks of farming mind-numbingly unchallenging content will burn people out. Lets remember, people gear up after first progression. Whether through MC itself or getting 1.12.1 tuned gear. Personally I do not speed run content, nor do I join hardcore guilds. However, for players who have done numerous vanilla projects before and experienced a harder level of tuning in BWL particularly, we have far more positive experiences than on servers with "faceroll" content. A challenge helps form a tighter community due to the nature of tougher tasks bringing people together, through actually wiping in raids/pre-raid preparation (like grinding better pieces in 5 mans because it is needed for the better of the guild). A tighter community will stick together, it obviously helps with player retention. I can only imagine the horror of raider turnover rate on Elysium with absolutely undertuned content compared to player power. People may use Nost as an example, but as a once RL/MT there of an above-average raiding guild, it was thoroughly disappointing in its tuning of content. It was firstly fun in Patch 1.4, because of item stats being less optimal. Elysium does not have this for its favor. Nost also had stealth buffed Broodlord, Chrom & Nefarian globalling full T2 tanks, if not fully consumed. It made things better, the danger of dying and wiping in raids was there, and of course player retention was there. Tanks had to be defensive for these fights in regular guilds, forcing DPS to manage threat and deal lower damage, extending the overall combat time and experience. If not for Molten Core, I request you to discuss this for Blackwing Lair release. Player retention at level 60 has to be an important enough topic to actually do something about the most popular activity at level 60 - which is to raid. The endgame content and the community that it brings together is the only reason I play vanilla. I would argue that I'm not the only one.

I did play retail. Your ignorance speaks volume. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXNeUxN1oT8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rUim7uPdPM 10 seconds of googling

This is another ambiguous argument. In retail, people did speed runs. That is not, nor are guilds using world buffs, a standard for the difficulty of a content. Those who use it as a baseline, and none have in this thread to my knowledge, are obviously asking for a Mythic level experience in vanilla, may I ask you, who asked for this? I'm stating the facts which you agree are true, that Elysium is using 1.12 (Naxx+) talents and gear for Molten Core progression. This, in essence, is a cheapened experience of progressing Molten Core. An emulation that gives only the faintest of tastes, if not just the fragrance, of what actual MC progression should be. It takes teamwork for the most basic of tasks for the first time around. If Elysium was instant-60 or a high experience-rate server, that makes sense. It is to give a basic, fundamental experience of vanilla was like, than people can quit and move on to other things. Elysium, however, is a 1x server, it has implications that it will try to provide an original vanilla feeling, where people can spend hundreds of hours. A cheapened progression experience, followed by weeks of farming mind-numbingly unchallenging content will burn people out. Lets remember, people gear up after first progression. Whether through MC itself or getting 1.12.1 tuned gear. Personally I do not speed run content, nor do I join hardcore guilds. However, for players who have done numerous vanilla projects before and experienced a harder level of tuning in BWL particularly, we have far more positive experiences than on servers with "faceroll" content. A challenge helps form a tighter community due to the nature of tougher tasks bringing people together, through actually wiping in raids/pre-raid preparation (like grinding better pieces in 5 mans because it is needed for the better of the guild). A tighter community will stick together, it obviously helps with player retention. I can only imagine the horror of raider turnover rate on Elysium with absolutely undertuned content compared to player power. People may use Nost as an example, but as a once RL/MT there of an above-average raiding guild, it was thoroughly disappointing in its tuning of content. It was firstly fun in Patch 1.4, because of item stats being less optimal. Elysium does not have this for its favor. Nost also had stealth buffed Broodlord, Chrom & Nefarian globalling full T2 tanks, if not fully consumed. It made things better, the danger of dying and wiping in raids was there, and of course player retention was there. Tanks had to be defensive for these fights in regular guilds, forcing DPS to manage threat and deal lower damage, extending the overall combat time and experience. If not for Molten Core, I request you to discuss this for Blackwing Lair release. Player retention at level 60 has to be an important enough topic to actually do something about the most popular activity at level 60 - which is to raid. The endgame content and the community that it brings together is the only reason I play vanilla. I would argue that I'm not the only one. Edit: Grammar

@Killerduki You do not understand what I'm asking for. Nobody is asking for hardcore boss buffs, or reverting spells/talents AND gear to patch 1.1. Some of us are saying PvE raid content should be buffed appropriately to negate the Patch 1.12 spell/talents (Naxx content). I'm not sure 5% or 10% dmg buff is the appropriate idea, but that is upto the devs. My suggestion which was rejected was reverting only the gear back to earlier patch. At the moment nothing is being done about it and you can see undergeared/underleveled/undermanned raids clearing endgame bosses with ease. Which basically means people will get bored and either raid log or perma quit or jump to a project which offers a better experience - in the long run it's all bad for Elysium player retention if nothing is done. Personally I got to level 21 here and stopped - the leveling apart from pathfinding is great - but at 60 I do not see the point of gearing if the content doesn't require the gear.

"Average player" is an ambiguous term. The average vanilla player is far more knowledgeable now. It's not 1% now, definitely not even 10%, but far more. It's been 12 years. Expecting newbie vanilla players to join Elysium and find a challenge in progression is also not realistic. Newbie vanilla WoW players are already experienced WoW players of some expansion, usually post-WotLK. Completely new WoW players will join retail, not private servers. There is no logical argument to release a retail values in patch 1.12 talents, spells and gear on a new server in 2016. I made this argument already here. FYI to Killerduki, Kronos fixed glancing blows weeks ago. Edit: Addition. Only thing gating people from clearing Elysium raid content is literally people not being 60, regardless of gear as it hardly matters with these raid values. Seeing the report of the first MC, it seems not having enough 60's is not the gate, but not having enough level 55-57+ players.

Again, it isn't about what we like or not. If we want (more) authentic vanilla experience (by at least getting proper items for the appropriate progression, if not spells and talents) than we have to make some sacrifices, those sacrifices have to be the overpowered stats of items from 1.12 or more tuned bosses. Tbh I doubt either will be done on this server, so there's nothing to worry about for you. I personally am not a hardcore player. Always preferred more social but smooth raids. Yet progression is so dull now, with players knowing all fights and being decked out in Patch 1.12 items for content that was released in Patch 1.2/Patch 1.6 (MC/BWL respectively) or progressing AQ40 with craftable NR gear which came out after AQ40. It's all very boring even to a non-hardcore player. Nothing is rewarding, so why play on these servers? So many people are just waiting for a project that will actually keep them awake in MC/BWL.

@Killerduki That's the whole point of nerfing items. To reduce player's power so Molten Core/Onyxia is less of a faceroll, It will definitely hurt some classes more than others, but that's how vanilla was. Items were introduced after MC/BWL even AQ to help boost some specs. In 1.12 setting, nothing will be interesting for experienced players, which will obviously mean more people quitting, less promotion, so on. Nost introduced vanilla with Patch 1.4, there is a reason for its success. @Motorbreath Should tell Usain Bolt to shoot himself in the foot to make Olympics more competitive for him? PMed anostrich regarding list of item stats rollback source.