Can devs confirm spell hit mechanic?

[Denbts 3]

In Vanilla WoW, arguments over whether it was better to stack spell hit or spell crit were common, because the relationship between the two stats was unknown for a long period of time.

Specifically, nobody was sure whether crits were on a two-roll system or a one-roll system. In a two-roll system, the game first considers your hit chance and determines whether or not you hit the mob, and then, if it's determined that your spell landed, it calculates whether or not you crit. Meanwhile, in a one-roll system, they're calculated simultaneously. The game rolls for crit, hit, and miss all at the same time, meaning that if you have a 1% added crit chance, exactly 1% more of your attacks will crit.

It was later confirmed by Blizzard that melee crit is calculated with a one-roll system, while spell crit is calculated with a two-roll system. Unfortunately, private servers are not always 100% Blizzlike. On Feenix, it was eventually determined that spell crits there were calculated on a one-roll system. On Nostalrius, there was some testing done that indicated that spells were in fact being calculated on a two-roll system, but it was never completely settled. 

Can the Elysium devs confirm that spell crits are in fact rolled AFTER it is determined whether a spell will land? 

Edited January 16, 2017 by Denbts

[Midoriko 2]

PvP 6%

PvE 16%

Your 51% crit means nothing if you miss constantly.

[Denbts 3]

9 minutes ago, Midoriko said:

PvP 6%

PvE 16%

Your 51% crit means nothing if you miss constantly.

Those are the hit caps, yes, and thanks for trying to help, but this doesn't really address my question. 

Your post tacitly assumes that hit and crit are on a two-roll system: that (in your example) 51% crit does not mean that 51% of the spells you CAST will crit, but rather that 51% of your spells that LAND will crit. In this scenario, spell crit is dependent on spell hit, and thus spell hit is better because it technically increases your chance to crit. 

My question is whether we know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that this is the case. It was the case in vanilla, but it has not always been the case on other private servers, and it was not even 100% confirmed on Nost 1.0. I'm looking for confirmation from somebody who has seen/done testing, or from the staff that spell crit is in fact calculated AFTER it is determined whether or not the spell has landed. 

[Midoriko 2]

Ok, it may seem I stray to the side but this is how the vanilla system "should" work.

Every roll in vanilla is based off of a 100 sided dice; which is why they moved to the "X Rating" system in TBC and forward.

There is a 5% Miss chance in pvp that can not be avoided, which is why it caps at 6% hit required for pvp.

Now, onward to what makes it confusing to understand.

Lets say you have a 5% chance to miss, and the default 5% crit.

90 of your 100 dice sides will be labeled HIT, which will result in normal damage.

5 of your dice sides will be labeled CRIT, and 5 will be labeled MISS. Dodge, Parry and Block are all dependent on your opponent so we discount these for now.

For every piece of gear you get that has +1% hit on it, the game replaces one of your MISS sides of dice with a HIT.

For every 1% CRIT you get, the game replaces one of your HIT sides with CRIT.

There are no 0.5%'s in vanilla, they are rounded off.

So lets take a set of modified stats and say you have 16% spell hit as a warlock, with 14% spell crit: The game will have replaced ALL of your MISS sides on your dice rolls with HITS, and then it begins replacing your HIT sides with CRIT until you have 14 CRIT sides and 86 HIT sides. Which then boils down into a more simplistic way of looking things if we use ratios instead of decimals.

If you achieve 34% Crit (I chose 34 instead of 33 to cover the missing 1.0) then one out of every 3 hits is a crit on average. Even 25% crit is more realistic because it still maintains a 1 of every 4 hits should crit ratio.

This even transfers directly into your resists which cap at 300 and 315 respectively (300 for players, 315 for the level 63 boss, 315/5=63)

 

Bonus, because this is all related to the same math system:

TIP: WHEN YOU SEE RESIST IT MATTERS IF IT IS YELLOW OR WHITE

A White Resist: Your spell was legitimately resisted.

A Yellow Resist: You missed (remember, in PvP there is a 5% miss you can NOT get rid of).

Now there are two types of ways a spell can be "Resisted" (white resist). Binary and Reduced damage; For Binary its true & false such as fear, and reduced dmg is for weakening the spell but still taking damage.

The maximum amount any type of damage in the game can be resisted is 75%, this includes Tier 3 tanks Armor Value and if your tank has 315 Fire Resist on Ragnaros or 427 Fire Resist on Ragnaros, he will only get a maximum dmg reduction of 75% so he is wasting stats.

I peronaly have 150 shadow resist as part of my pvp setup, to resist Fears, Mana Burns, make Tier 3 Warlocks weaker, and not fear other shadow priests. This translates into roughly a 50% binary resist for Fear.

NPC's however are allowed to go into negative resists, such (when debuff slots increase) using 4 dedicated warlock curses on the boss. Even if the boss has ZERO inate shadow resist, it will send him into the negative and increase your DPS even though you are not critting them. Players however can not go into negative resist.

 

 

Edited January 16, 2017 by Midoriko

[Deathlace 2]

1 hour ago, Denbts said:

My question is whether we know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that this is the case. It was the case in vanilla, but it has not always been the case on other private servers, and it was not even 100% confirmed on Nost 1.0. I'm looking for confirmation from somebody who has seen/done testing, or from the staff that spell crit is in fact calculated AFTER it is determined whether or not the spell has landed. 

Not that this may be of much help, but I'll confirm it 100% for Nost 1.0, for what it's worth. Of course, I haven't done testing here to know if it is still on a two-roll system here though.

[Midoriko 2]

3 minutes ago, Deathlace said:

Not that this may be of much help, but I'll confirm it 100% for Nost 1.0, for what it's worth. Of course, I haven't done testing here to know if it is still on a two-roll system here though.

I can't speak for Elysium or any other private server, but the majority of all "Spells" and abilities go through a 2 roll system to figure out if they are Hit, Crit, Resist, Block, Dodge, or Parry. Because technically you can still roll a 1-Hit-Crit, and a player can dodge it. No, you can not dodge spells, but if you read above I hope you'll understand.

[Deathlace 2]

3 minutes ago, Midoriko said:

I can't speak for Elysium or any other private server, but the majority of all "Spells" and abilities go through a 2 roll system to figure out if they are Hit, Crit, Resist, Block, Dodge, or Parry. Because technically you can still roll a 1-Hit-Crit, and a player can dodge it. No, you can not dodge spells, but if you read above I hope you'll understand.

I think you misunderstand. I do know how things are "supposed" to work. I believe the OP wants to know if it is working correctly on Elysium, not clarification on the intended mechanic?

[Denbts 3]

5 minutes ago, Midoriko said:

For every 1% CRIT you get, the game replaces one of your HIT sides with CRIT.

This is how spells worked in retail, and people are pretty sure it's  how they worked on Nost. However, this is not how melee attacks work, nor is it how spells worked on Feenix. What you are describing is a two-roll system. By two rolls, I mean the game makes two calculations before the number pops up:

1) The game determines whether or not the spell hits.

2) If the spell hits, the game determines whether or not the spell crits.

In a two-roll system, as you just described, crits only replace hits. However, in a one-roll system, which melee attacks use, crits can replace both hits AND misses. It factors in your miss chance and hit chance simultaneously. In fact, with a big enough level disparity between the attacker and his target, you can have scenarios where the only way for a melee attack to land is by critting. 

Your answer is merely an in-depth description of a two-roll system. You're not providing any evidence that this is actually how this server calculates spell crits aside from asserting that it is. This is not how all attacks are calculated though, and while the two-roll system was present in retail, it has not always been how spell crits were calculated on other private servers, due to discrepancies in the code. I want to be sure that such discrepancies do not exist here. 

So I'm asking for confirmation that the two-roll system -- the one you just described above -- IS actually how things work here. It's supposed to be, but "supposed to be" isn't always enough to go off of with private servers. In order to be sure, we need to do some testing. But seeing as there aren't any target dummies around, I have no idea how to test it. And thus, I'd like to see a staff response if possible. 

[Denbts 3]

2 minutes ago, Deathlace said:

I think you misunderstand. I do know how things are "supposed" to work. I believe the OP wants to know if it is working correctly on Elysium, not clarification on the intended mechanic?

Yes. This is precisely what I'm asking. Responses saying "See, how it works is..." do not help clarify things, because how it's supposed to work is already well-established. What I'm requesting is any information demonstrating that it's working how it's supposed to. 

Would you be willing to point me towards whatever info you have confirming that the two-roll system worked on Nost? I've seen a fair amount of convincing evidence, but every thread seems to inevitably run into some troubling data points that make it hard to be certain. 

[Midoriko 2]

My bad for trying to be helpful.

[Denbts 3]

31 minutes ago, Midoriko said:

My bad for trying to be helpful.

Thank you for trying to help, and your explanation was probably useful for people who didn't know how the system was supposed to work. I'm just looking for proof. 

[quasexort 4]

You could try to test this by having a low level character duel a lvl 60 and check the distribution of crits and hits.

[Netlike 0]

Simple reapec without elemental precision.. remove all +hit gear and go pvp. You will get resists. Now respec again and repeat and you will get no resists. So +hit  does seem to work.

[Justme 9]

On ‎19‎-‎1‎-‎2017 at 0:39 AM, quasexort said:

You could try to test this by having a low level character duel a lvl 60 and check the distribution of crits and hits.

you would need 10k spells to test this. That makes it quite time consuming (compared to making a forum post)