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Aerithissa

Claw and Bite

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I decided to work on my Hunter some and I'm wondering which of these my cat should use.  Right now I just have it using Claw, but it also knows Bite.

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Here's the thing you need to know about Claw and Bite ...

http://web.archive.org/web/20070406174848/http://petopia.brashendeavors.net/html/articles/skills_list.shtml

Bite: 35 Focus, 5 yd range, Instant, 10 sec cooldown

Claw: 25 Focus; 5 yd range; Instant

Notice the difference?  Bite has a 10 second cooldown, while Claw doesn't have a cooldown.

What this means in practice is that if you've got Claw on your Pet and set it to auto attack, they will spam Claw until their Focus is empty (or close enough to it) and then every time they reach 25 Focus they'll Claw again.  What this does in practice is functionally dedicate all available Focus to using Claw as fast as possible, so if you're wanting to use Focus for something OTHER THAN Claw, you should probably not have trained Claw in the first place.

Using Bite instead means that your Pet won't be generating damage from Focus quite as quickly/front loaded as you would using Claw, but because of the Cooldown you have Focus remaining to actually make use of on other skills.

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6 hours ago, Roxanne Flowers said:

Here's the thing you need to know about Claw and Bite ...

http://web.archive.org/web/20070406174848/http://petopia.brashendeavors.net/html/articles/skills_list.shtml

Bite: 35 Focus, 5 yd range, Instant, 10 sec cooldown

Claw: 25 Focus; 5 yd range; Instant

Notice the difference?  Bite has a 10 second cooldown, while Claw doesn't have a cooldown.

What this means in practice is that if you've got Claw on your Pet and set it to auto attack, they will spam Claw until their Focus is empty (or close enough to it) and then every time they reach 25 Focus they'll Claw again.  What this does in practice is functionally dedicate all available Focus to using Claw as fast as possible, so if you're wanting to use Focus for something OTHER THAN Claw, you should probably not have trained Claw in the first place.

Using Bite instead means that your Pet won't be generating damage from Focus quite as quickly/front loaded as you would using Claw, but because of the Cooldown you have Focus remaining to actually make use of on other skills.

This is true... If you go by how it is on paper :p 

In reality your pet will be getting enough focus to use bite several times during a fight because you'll constantly have to micro manage your pet to avoid it being killed etc and in that time it'll get focus enough for bite. Besides is there really any other good choices to spend additional 25 points on?

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On a Cat, you've really got Bite, Claw, Cower, Dash, Growl and Prowl.  Dash and Prowl are essentially "opener" skills.  Growl needs no additional explanation and Cower isn't worth mentioning unless you're a Melee Hunter (and maybe not even then).  In the context of a Cat, you're better off going with Claw than with Bite simply because you'll get more "use" out of Claw than you will out of Bite.  Doing Bite AND Claw is just a waste of Talent Points.

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15 hours ago, Roxanne Flowers said:

On a Cat, you've really got Bite, Claw, Cower, Dash, Growl and Prowl.  Dash and Prowl are essentially "opener" skills.  Growl needs no additional explanation and Cower isn't worth mentioning unless you're a Melee Hunter (and maybe not even then).  In the context of a Cat, you're better off going with Claw than with Bite simply because you'll get more "use" out of Claw than you will out of Bite.  Doing Bite AND Claw is just a waste of Talent Points.

Yes I agree, but then again to my question in my previous comment:

Quote

is there really any other good choices to spend additional 25 points on?

afaik there isn't, so might as well train it both bite and claw, regardless of how little bite might benefit you.

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Pet Level: 60
Pet Loyalty: 6
Points Available: 300

Claw - rank 8 (25pts)
Dash - rank 3 (25pts)
Growl - rank 7 (0pts)
Prowl - rank 3 (25pts)
Arcane Resist - rank 3 (45pts)
Fire Resist - rank 3 (45pts)
Frost Resist - rank 3 (45pts)
Nature Resist - rank 3 (45pts)
Shadow Resist - rank 3 (45pts)

Total spent: 300
Points Left: 0

You tell me if there's something better to spend 25 talent points on a redundant skill that will only get used ONCE per battle ...

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Why would you need all those resistances for pve?, getting stamina will cover your pet's survival far more than all those different resistances, you only need 1-2 resistance per raid so the rest of the resistances are just wasted points. You also do not need rank 3 dash for pve at all, and you do not need prowl either.

This is how I recommend training your wolf/cat pets:
EKn3r9s.png


 

Quote

You tell me if there's something better to spend 25 talent points on a redundant skill that will only get used ONCE per battle ...

This I already covered in my previous comment as well. That is not how it is in reality, it's only on paper that you'll be using it once.

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Bite: 35 Focus, 5 yd range, Instant, 10 sec cooldown

Claw: 25 Focus; 5 yd range; Instant

Because of the way that Focus Regeneration works, if Claw is on auto attack, your Pet will never reach 35 Focus to use Bite except at the start of a fight.  That's because as soon as your Pet has 25 Focus and is attacking something, they'll use Claw and burn Focus back down to zero.  In order to use Bite AND Claw, your Pet would need to wait an extra 2 seconds WITHOUT using Claw in order to recover enough Focus to use Bite.

So my assertion is that because of how Focus recovery works, your Pet can't build 35 Focus to use Bite while Claw is on auto attack ... and if you've got Claw, there's no (good) reason NOT to put Claw on auto attack.  Growl (and Cower, both) costs 15 Focus, so your Pet will be able to use those on auto attack while you've got Claw on auto attack, but when building Focus up from zero, your Pet is never going to skip Claw (at 25 Focus) to get to Bite (at 35 Focus) while Claw is on auto attack.

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25 minutes ago, Roxanne Flowers said:

Bite: 35 Focus, 5 yd range, Instant, 10 sec cooldown

Claw: 25 Focus; 5 yd range; Instant

Because of the way that Focus Regeneration works, if Claw is on auto attack, your Pet will never reach 35 Focus to use Bite except at the start of a fight.  That's because as soon as your Pet has 25 Focus and is attacking something, they'll use Claw and burn Focus back down to zero.  In order to use Bite AND Claw, your Pet would need to wait an extra 2 seconds WITHOUT using Claw in order to recover enough Focus to use Bite.

So my assertion is that because of how Focus recovery works, your Pet can't build 35 Focus to use Bite while Claw is on auto attack ... and if you've got Claw, there's no (good) reason NOT to put Claw on auto attack.  Growl (and Cower, both) costs 15 Focus, so your Pet will be able to use those on auto attack while you've got Claw on auto attack, but when building Focus up from zero, your Pet is never going to skip Claw (at 25 Focus) to get to Bite (at 35 Focus) while Claw is on auto attack.

I understood and already knew of this before your very first comment on this thread. Not sure why you gotta be repeating it 3 times now, as I said; I already covered this in my previous comment but here it is again:

Due to boss mechanics etc there will be situations where you'd have to micro manage your pet away from those mechanics to avoid it being killed, and in that time you'll sometimes be regenerating enough focus to use Bite again. Hence why on paper it is how you say it is, but in reality it isn't. And since there is no other good alternatives to spend the additional 25 training points on anyways, then you might as well spent it on this tiny DPS increase. (at least if you're using the way of teaching your pet abilities that I provided, which I find to be the far superior one)

For short fights (Like most MC fights whenever you're overgeared) you could argue that prowl>bite because you're most likely not going to perform several bites in a 20-30 sec fight, so Prowl would be better in that regard.

It's a bit ironic that you find Bite a waste of training points, meanwhile you recommend to have Dash rank 3 and 5 different resistances for pve when you do not require that many resistances for ANY raid. 

Edited by Cruzix

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Maybe it's because i'm BM and have better focus reg on pet, but i have growl, bite, and claw on auto and they get used quite regularily. Bite gets used every 10 sometimes 15 seconds, and sometimes i also smash the button when it's off CD to trigger it. Dunno if that actually does do anything but i like to believe it goes off faster that way.

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Ah, here's the disconnect of perspective.  I'm thinking in terms of "all rounder" use for the 1-60 level process (mainly because I'm new to the server and have a long road ahead of me), which means that aside from dungeons I'm looking at primarily a solo experience against a wide variety of opposition, meaning that a Ready For Anything™ approach is my way to go.  You're thinking in terms of 40 man raids at 60, which is a VERY different environment ... hence why we call the two leveling and raid specs.  In a raid environment, you can "tailor" your Pet's talents to meet the specific demands of that particular raid and the management challenges (and opportunities) it presents.  When you're fighting PvE for XP, that opportunity to "tailor" your Pet's talents to very specific things diminishes.

Both approaches have their merits, but one doesn't translate all that well into the other, since the two environments have markedly different demands.

With respect to Focus regeneration, my understanding has always been that it is 20 Energy per 2 seconds for Rogues (base) and that it is 5 Focus per second for Hunter Pets (base).  Bestial Discipline will increase that by 10% per talent point, which if my understanding is correct would mean either 5.5 or 6 Focus per second regeneration for either 1 or 2 talent points spent.  So it's definitely faster, but I don't see how it would be "faster enough" to go from 24 Focus to 30 Focus to 36 Focus in 2 seconds (as an ideal scenario) without having Claw trigger on auto at 30 Focus because Claw has no cooldown and dropping Focus from 30 to 5 before ticking back up to 11 instead of 36.  The only plausible scenario in which you can have a Pet go from 24 to 36 Focus in 2 seconds without using Claw on auto in that interval would be if there was some sort of Global Cooldown preventing use of Claw during that interval so as to make Bite take precedence (somehow).  Needless to say, I'm finding that notion difficult to support when looking at sustained auto attacks where Focus is being used just about as fast as it can be recovered.

Trales, the big advantage of having Bestial Discipline is that it allows recovery of 30 Focus per 5 seconds instead of 30 Focus per 6 seconds, meaning your Pet can make Focus consuming attacks "more often" in a sustained combat, resulting in a higher DPS from your Pet (and thus more Threat generation).

Cruzix, I'm spelling all of this out not because I assume that YOU don't know this (because I'm actually sure you do) ... but because there are very likely to be others lurking these forums and this thread who might not know this already.  If you already know the answer, you don't need to see the work that goes into finding the answer ... but if you don't know the answer already, it can be confusing to backtrack to figure out what thought process produced the answer in the first place.  For me, this is a "show your work" kind of thing so that everyone can learn from it, not just those of us participating in the conversation.

For example ...

I'd like to know the thinking behind your value judgements on why Pets don't need much in the way of Resistances (60 or 90 is plenty).  I'd also like to know why you eschew the Armor talent entirely and instead prefer pure Stamina.  This is less a question of right/wrong but more wanting to understand the relative "value" you place on each of the options, and why.  So far, my experience has been that "a little of everything" will tend to go farther when dealing with a widely variable matrix of opposition, which is what you tend to encounter while leveling ... while a more "tailored" approach like you're advocating for winds up being a better fit when the range of things to face narrows down predictably in places like raids.  I say this because it's pretty obvious looking at the Returns On Investment for talent points that the farther you go on any single thing the less return you get for it per talent point spent (yay Diminishing Returns).

WARNING: Thread Derailment Imminent

That's why I'm honestly considering doing something as bizarro as this for the Owl I'm keeping for my Melee Survival Hunter (yes, you read that right):

Pet Level: 60
Pet Loyalty: 6
Points Available: 300

Cower - rank 6 (18pts) Causes no damage but lowers Threat. 15 Focus, 5 yd range, Instant, 5 sec cooldown
Dive - rank 3 (25pts) Increases movement speed by 80% for 15 seconds. 20 Focus
Growl - rank 7 (0pts) Taunt the target. 15 Focus, 5 yd range, Instant, 5 sec cooldown
Screech - rank 4 (25pts) Blasts a single enemy for 26 to 46 damage and lowers the melee attack power of all enemies in melee range by 100. 20 Focus, 5 yd range, Instant
Great Stamina - rank 6 (75pts) Increases Stamina by 17.
Natural Armor - rank 7 (75pts) Increases Armor by 550.
Arcane Resist - rank 2 (15pts) Increases Resistance by 60.
Fire Resist - rank 2 (15pts) Increases Resistance by 60.
Frost Resist - rank 2 (15pts) Increases Resistance by 60.
Nature Resist - rank 2 (15pts) Increases Resistance by 60.
Shadow Resist - rank 2 (15pts) Increases Resistance by 60.

Total spent: 293
Points Left: 7

And I'm sure that right about now you're having a WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT moment on seeing that I'm actually planning on using Cower, because ... NOBODY uses Cower!  But hear me out.  Once again, I'm planning on playing an off-meta spec from 10-60 ... in this case, a Hunter with Pet predisposed to melee rather than to range.

The basic formulation of the Beast Master spec is that the Pet tanks ... buff the Pet.

The basic formulation of the Marksman spec is that the Pet tanks ... buff the Hunter.

The basic formulation of the Melee Survival spec is ... that the HUNTER tanks, while the Pet offers Close Support ... which is a very different basic premise.

If you can keep that aggro on yourself, rather than on your Pet, then things like Raptor Strike and Mongoose Bite (and the Savage Strikes talent in tier 2 Survival) as well as the Counterattack talent at Tier 5 in Survival can start having some considerable effect ... and that's not even including Traps and the rest getting buffed up.  But since that strategy only works in melee, and if you yourself are acting as an aggro magnet, in order to play as a Melee Hunter you need your Pet to "support" you without grabbing the aggro and playing tank for you.

Out of all of the Pet Skills available, almost everything that your Pet can bring is either Damage or a Buff ... and there are very few Debuffs.

Bite, Claw, Lightning Breath, Poison Spit, Scorpid Poison, and Thunderstomp are all basically damage Skills.

Charge is an immobilize and next Pet attack buff to Attack Power.

Furious Howl is a PBAoE Physical Damage buff to 1 attack.

Cower and Growl are Threat modification Skills.

Dash and Dive are Movement buff Skills.

Shell Shield is a Pet Armor buff.

And then there's Screech ... which is just about the only Debuff (other than a DoT) you can get from a Pet.  It costs less Focus than Claw, does almost as much damage per use as Claw, but it reduces the Attack Power of all enemies in melee range of your Pet ... and it can be used every 4 seconds at 5 Focus per second recovery ... and the Debuff lasts for 4 seconds.  This makes Screech the only Debuff that can aid a Hunter when facing multiple opponents simultaneously in melee range, and it can be chain cast on auto.

Now to my mind, if you're planning on playing a Melee Survival Hunter, you want to have your Pet fighting right beside you in Close Support of what you're doing with your melee weapons using Raptor Strike and Mongoose Bite and Counterattack, which also happens to be the perfect positioning for Screech to cover you and reduce the incoming damage you're taking while tanking for your Pet (rather than the other way around).  You then have Cower available, but not on auto attack by default, so as to create a dynamic in which your Pet is able to shed aggro gained via Screech to you.  The net effect then becomes one in which your Hunter can fight groups of mobs sequentially rather than in parallel, with your Pet holding the aggro of whatever you aren't fighting in melee yet while debuffing everything in melee range.  That way, you split the incoming damage between yourself and your Pet, yielding a higher overall survival rate for the two of You against the "many" of the PvE Them.  If it helps any, think of it as being Tandem Tanking, with your Pet as both Off Tank and Debuffer while your Hunter acts as the Main Tank and DPSer at melee range.

Needless to say, I don't think I've heard of ANYBODY else contemplating any sort of build strategy like this.  I know that there have been the odd forays into trying to make a Melee Survival spec work from time to time, but I'm not aware of anyone going to this length to incorporate the choice of Pet AND Pet Skills into the mix to try and make a Melee Survival Hunter build "viable" for a leveling spec.  Needless to say, I'm still working to nail down the details for this one (and my Hunter is only Level 16, so I've got a ways to go yet), but I'm fascinated by the possibilities to be had in a "Come At Me, Bro" style of Melee Hunter that would seem to break a lot of the rules of the Conventional Wisdom that has been handed down to us.  If people want to hear more about the notion, I'll consider making a separate thread for it so the idea can be more fully explored away from this discussion of the merits of Bite and/or Claw.

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Interesting build, and no I definitely have not heard of such a build before... but then again i'm not into playing WoW like that, I like to be as efficient as possible :P
But that build wouldn't work at level 60 which I'm sure you already know (Due to half your melee abilities require you to dodge an attack to be able to be used etc)
However there is this Hunter melee build that someone posted on the Nostalrius forums a while ago
which might be something you're interested in when you hit level 60: https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=28163


You also asked how and why I value pet abilities/skills as I do so I'm gonna answer that.

This is my pet ability/skills priorities for raiding:
Damaging abilities > Stamina > Resistance > Utility (Prowl, Dash etc), Armor

1. Damaging abilities is the main priority because im a DPS class, not much more to it. Provide the best possible DPS you can for your raid, and you're doing a good job. (aside from also being able to tranq at the right times etc)
2. Stamina is prioritized over all the other defensive skills because it "mitigates" both physical and elemental damage... or rather it will make it survive bigger hits so the healers are able to heal it and you won't be losing DPS for having a dead pet.
3. Resistances is next because almost all damage that will kill your pet is elemental damage.
4. Utility is placed as 4th because its really not that important when raiding, your pet won't be running a lot.
5. Armor is last because your pet will barely ever take physical damage since its not the one tanking, and if you're fighting a boss that can cleave then you can easily avoid your pet being killed by positioning it behind the boss rather than in front.

The same logic applies to the other pet builds. Although for the leveling pet build I should probably change it so that both stamina and armor has the same priority.

Edited by Cruzix

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Fair enough that "everything changes at 60" when you go raiding.  So that makes your priorities (and perspective) on things a lot clearer.  Thank you.

And yes, being worried about Level 60 raiding isn't exactly a priority for me right now.  ^_~

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