Damage

[Elwynn 0]

So. Normally I wouldnt be writing a forum post about this, nor have many questions to ask.

But since this is the first time im doing a hunter on a vanilla server, im not familiar with the expected output in different levels. I have been led to belive that my current ranged weapon is a good one for a long time, and I dont have any problem finishing off enemies left and right. All tho, my weapon is of a low level compared to me and ranged weapons in my level.

I've been leveling as a Marksman hunter, thats my choice - since I cant be arsed to redo my talents later, LOL. 

Let me give you some numbers, which arent rare occasions. It should also be noted that im Aliance and that I have The Defias Brotherhood chest, Gnomeregan quest legs and I have Shadowskin gloves (1% crit). Other than that my gear consists of normal quest rewards and green BoE's. Im level 37, Dwarf - female FTW.

Aimed Shot crits (Rank 3) - 550-600+

Multishot (Rank 2) - last seen 400+

White damage crits - ranging from 200-300

Havnt put much notice in Arcane shot (Rank 5), but the last crit I saw (lvl 37) was about 150+

These numbers I have observed on mobs in my own level non-elite and elites level 36-42.

Are these numbers normal? Are they low? Would I be better off investing in a new weapon? Or does it sound like im on the right track?

- Elwynn

[HudsonHawk 1]

While your leveling I wouldn't worry to much about it unless you are going to twink this hunter.

[Elwynn 0]

7 minutes ago, HudsonHawk said:

While your leveling I wouldn't worry to much about it unless you are going to twink this hunter.

While I know that is true. Im more interested in knowing if my current weapon is doing enough damage. As I understand it, the slower the ranged weapon is, the higher damage output you'll have, which is why I have one with a speed of 3.40. This should supposedly be THE option for hunters as the hunter can benefit greatly on the slower speed.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Elwynn

[Narzilx 1]

On 2/2/2017 at 11:24 PM, Elwynn said:

While I know that is true. Im more interested in knowing if my current weapon is doing enough damage. As I understand it, the slower the ranged weapon is, the higher damage output you'll have, which is why I have one with a speed of 3.40. This should supposedly be THE option for hunters as the hunter can benefit greatly on the slower speed.

The speed should only directly matter in PvE raiding because of clipping. iirc elysium has weapon normalization already in.

[Perkalov 0]

18 hours ago, Narzilx said:

The speed should only directly matter in PvE raiding because of clipping. iirc elysium has weapon normalization already in.

He is spec'ing MM so if he is using Aimed Shot he is indeed clipping auto-shots with faster weapon, but more importantly...

He is asking for damage per hit and weapon speed certainly is affecting that.

Elwyn, those numbers are slightly higher then mine, but I am dressed in a suit of crap with a green lvl 36 bow with speed 1.9 so Im a bad benchmark. Aside from that, you DPS is what matters, and assuming that you use Aimed Shot then having a slow weapon helps that. So upgrading might actually hurt your total output.

[Narzilx 1]

1 hour ago, Perkalov said:

He is spec'ing MM so if he is using Aimed Shot he is indeed clipping auto-shots with faster weapon, but more importantly...

He is asking for damage per hit and weapon speed certainly is affecting that.

Elwyn, those numbers are slightly higher then mine, but I am dressed in a suit of crap with a green lvl 36 bow with speed 1.9 so Im a bad benchmark. Aside from that, you DPS is what matters, and assuming that you use Aimed Shot then having a slow weapon helps that. So upgrading might actually hurt your total output.

Weapon speed doesn't affect the damage the weapon does because of weapon normalization every ranged weapon is based on 2.8 speed for damage  calculation purposes. Only the damage range on the weapon matters for it. The speed only matters for clipping which is only an issue in raiding and  would only be solved by having the BWL xbow.

[Perkalov 0]

4 hours ago, Narzilx said:

Weapon speed doesn't affect the damage the weapon does because of weapon normalization every ranged weapon is based on 2.8 speed for damage  calculation purposes. Only the damage range on the weapon matters for it. The speed only matters for clipping which is only an issue in raiding and  would only be solved by having the BWL xbow.

Ehh... clipping is an issue if he is using Aimed Shot. Casting time of Aimed Shot is 3 sec, so having bows/guns with higher attackspeed will have the auto-shot clipped. Reason to why clipping doesn't tend to be an issue is because most hunters doesn't start to use Aimed Shot before raiding (MM=Aimed Shot, BM=not so much).

As for normalization... That is AP gained from agility, equipment etc converted into damage with a normalization of 2.8 per second. But the gun he uses still fires ever 3.4 seconds. Thus the damage per hit is 125% of the normalized value while a gun with a weaponspeed of 1.4 will do 0.5 of the normalized value. This is so that skills that uses the weapon as base for its damage shouldn't benefit from having a slow weapon speed (and fast weapon being penalized).

Normalization, if in effect (originally introduced... well late in vanilla), only affect DPS, not the difference in damage per hit. What you suggest is that all weaponspeed alter is the amount of ammo used.

A weapon with 2.0 attack speed will do half the damage of a weapon with 4.0 per hit. They will have the same DPS (all else equal, and no multiplier to weapons speed, such as ammo pouch). And they skills will do equal damage no matter which of the weapon he uses (due to normalization).

The question specifically asks for an evaluation of Damage per Hit, thus weapon speed do still matter to white damage.

All that said, are you sure that the weapons are normalized?

[Narzilx 1]

2 hours ago, Perkalov said:

Ehh... clipping is an issue if he is using Aimed Shot. Casting time of Aimed Shot is 3 sec, so having bows/guns with higher attackspeed will have the auto-shot clipped. Reason to why clipping doesn't tend to be an issue is because most hunters doesn't start to use Aimed Shot before raiding (MM=Aimed Shot, BM=not so much).

As for normalization... That is AP gained from agility, equipment etc converted into damage with a normalization of 2.8 per second. But the gun he uses still fires ever 3.4 seconds. Thus the damage per hit is 125% of the normalized value while a gun with a weaponspeed of 1.4 will do 0.5 of the normalized value. This is so that skills that uses the weapon as base for its damage shouldn't benefit from having a slow weapon speed (and fast weapon being penalized).

Normalization, if in effect (originally introduced... well late in vanilla), only affect DPS, not the difference in damage per hit. What you suggest is that all weaponspeed alter is the amount of ammo used.

A weapon with 2.0 attack speed will do half the damage of a weapon with 4.0 per hit. They will have the same DPS (all else equal, and no multiplier to weapons speed, such as ammo pouch). And they skills will do equal damage no matter which of the weapon he uses (due to normalization).

The question specifically asks for an evaluation of Damage per Hit, thus weapon speed do still matter to white damage.

All that said, are you sure that the weapons are normalized?

You do realize that the only bow in the game that doesn't make aimed shot clip is the bwl xbow if you do the math, right?
Also I don't think you understand the formula and how weapon normalization works. Speed has no correlation on damage range per hit.

[Perkalov 0]

3 hours ago, Narzilx said:

You do realize that the only bow in the game that doesn't make aimed shot clip is the bwl xbow if you do the math, right?
Also I don't think you understand the formula and how weapon normalization works. Speed has no correlation on damage range per hit.

Well if he actually got 3.4 speed and a heavy quiver (being below lvl 40 and all), then it clips with 0,008 sec from auto.

But generally speaking, yes any weapon with higher speed then 3.6s will be clipped by Aimed Shot if the hunter have a quiver with 15% faster attack.

But while every bow clips since they have higher speed then 3.6, the amount lost will be higher the faster the bow is. Its not as if this is an on and of switch. With weaponspeed 1.0 it will actually clip 2/3 of the white damage (clips two full auto shots) while with weapon-speed 2.0 it clips 1/3 of the damage (clipping half a shot). In short, a slower bow will lose less damage to clipping, even when it is affected by the phenomena.

Yes I do understand normalization, it affects what damage is contributed to the attack from your total AP. No matter what speed your weapon have, the contribution to teh attack, from AP is the same, the actual formula should be...

weapon-damage + (AP/14*2.8) = damage

Observe that weapon-damage is a part of the forumla and only hte contribution from AP is normalized, thus affects the outcome and it is directly dependent of of weapon-speed (DPS*weapon-speed=weapon-damage). So while it is less of an factor after normalization, weapon speed do affect the normalized attacks (to hunters its Multi and Aimed). Before the normalisation the formula used weaponspeed where 2.8 now is.

I also do understand that it doesn't effect "white damage per hit" since it isn't an instant attack. The formula for "white attacks" should be weapon-damage + (AP/14*weapon-speed)=total damage. The same formula earlier used on the now Normalized skills.

A slower weapon do more damage per hit, but with Aimed and Multi the difference is negligible while for white damage directly correlates to weapon speed.

With that said, are you sure we are "Normalized"? In vanilla it was done like with the AQ release or something like that.