What enchant?

[mytchi3 1]

Combat dagger pve 15/31/5 what enchants should i have? According to Oto spreadsheet double crusader is best dps but i see people with +5 wep dmg on main hand and crusader or +15 agil on OH.

But if i put crusader instead of either one or both it gives me supperior dps in spreadsheet but thats ideal dps there so anyone has experience what is the best and why?

[mytchi3 1]

Bump crusader or +5dmg on MH for pve and why? 

I see many rogues with +5 but spreadsheets show crusader as more dps 

[Moiz 0]

Here's my take on the issue, hopefully i haven't overlooked something important.

The purpose of AGI is if said player values the benefit of the AGI stat over a static AP boost (crusader), or a straight damage increase (+5). Calculating the actual damage contribution from AGI in any particular situation is tricky due to the rng component. The best we can really do is plug the numbers into a spreadsheet and run it X times to get a statistical distribution of the probable amount of damage that x amount of the stat will do, or have run it numerous times in the past and assigned the stat a combat value which we assent to. On the other hand, crusader and +5 are more straight-forward.

If we normalise crusader AP bonus to 60second windows we can take it as being equivalent to a static 25str bonus, which might actually be less for daggers due to their speed; there is a post here or on the Nost boards that tested this more fully but i can't properly remember the conclusion. But anyway, we can caluculate the white damage for without enchants, with +5, with crusader and with double crusader. Using Perdition's Blade for the example, we have:      

Average white damage = average weapon damage + 1.8 * AP / 14

@1k AP
105 + (1.8 * 121.4)
105 + 218.5
= 323.5

@1k AP +5
110 + (1.8 * 121.4)
110 + 218.5
= 328.5

@1k AP - Crusader
105 + (1.8 * 124)
105 + 223
= 328

@1k AP - Crusader x 2
105 + (1.8 * 127.5)
105 + 229.5
= 334.5

So +5 is ~the same as single crusader and double crusader beats +5, given either 2 procs in a 60second window or a double proc. However, both ambush and backstab are percentage based (250% and 150%), so that +5 actually appears more valuable than the story told for white damage, e.g. assuming 100 average damage for said weapon the additional backstab percentage makes this 150 damage, but enchant it with +5 and you get 157.5 damage, not 155. Plug these new values into 1k AP with Perdition's and we get (damage = average damage + (1.7 * AP / 14)), 286.4 for backstab with +5, 281.5 with crusader and 285 for crusader x2.

Ergo, and having done the same for ambush, +5 damage gives +1.4 for backstab, +6.4 for ambush and -6 for white swings over double crusader. As for working out, long hand, what, statistically, is actually likely to do more damage, you'd have to monitor and record your white swings and specials, and what specials, then add and subtract these numbers to each one, then total the result... and do this over countless runs to get a statistically meaningful result. But balls to that i say. Personally i like agi, on both hunter and rogue, and probably value it more than any particular guide or spreadsheet says that i should, but that's just me.    

As for your dilemma, i'd take +5 for main hand dagger, not because of its relation to damage but rather because it gives you consistency; the benefit is there at all times and everything consistently hits harder as a result, whereas crusader gives you windows that you must always be in a position to take full advantage of, which will not be the case. On the other hand, a double proc certainly gives you an excellent window for you to  BF > AR > go ham in!

That said, as to what can statistically do more damage during x amount of time with z conditions in situation y, the spreadsheet is likely right.

[mytchi3 1]

27 minutes ago, Moiz said:

Here's my take on the issue, hopefully i haven't overlooked something important.

The purpose of AGI is if said player values the benefit of the AGI stat over a static AP boost (crusader), or a straight damage increase (+5). Calculating the actual damage contribution from AGI in any particular situation is tricky due to the rng component. The best we can really do is plug the numbers into a spreadsheet and run it X times to get a statistical distribution of the probable amount of damage that x amount of the stat will do, or have run it numerous times in the past and assigned the stat a combat value which we assent to. On the other hand, crusader and +5 are more straight-forward.

If we normalise crusader AP bonus to 60second windows we can take it as being equivalent to a static 25str bonus, which might actually be less for daggers due to their speed; there is a post here or on the Nost boards that tested this more fully but i can't properly remember the conclusion. But anyway, we can caluculate the white damage for without enchants, with +5, with crusader and with double crusader. Using Perdition's Blade for the example, we have:      

Average white damage = average weapon damage + 1.8 * AP / 14

@1k AP
105 + (1.8 * 121.4)
105 + 218.5
= 323.5

@1k AP +5
110 + (1.8 * 121.4)
110 + 218.5
= 328.5

@1k AP - Crusader
105 + (1.8 * 124)
105 + 223
= 328

@1k AP - Crusader x 2
105 + (1.8 * 127.5)
105 + 229.5
= 334.5

So +5 is ~the same as single crusader and double crusader beats +5, given either 2 procs in a 60second window or a double proc. However, both ambush and backstab are percentage based (250% and 150%), so that +5 actually appears more valuable than the story told for white damage, e.g. assuming 100 average damage for said weapon the additional backstab percentage makes this 150 damage, but enchant it with +5 and you get 157.5 damage, not 155. Plug these new values into 1k AP with Perdition's and we get (damage = average damage + (1.7 * AP / 14)), 286.4 for backstab with +5, 281.5 with crusader and 285 for crusader x2.

Ergo, and having done the same for ambush, +5 damage gives +1.4 for backstab, +6.4 for ambush and -6 for white swings over double crusader. As for working out, long hand, what, statistically, is actually likely to do more damage, you'd have to monitor and record your white swings and specials, and what specials, then add and subtract these numbers to each one, then total the result... and do this over countless runs to get a statistically meaningful result. But balls to that i say. Personally i like agi, on both hunter and rogue, and probably value it more than any particular guide or spreadsheet says that i should, but that's just me.    

As for your dilemma, i'd take +5 for main hand dagger, not because of its relation to damage but rather because it gives you consistency; the benefit is there at all times and everything consistently hits harder as a result, whereas crusader gives you windows that you must always be in a position to take full advantage of, which will not be the case. On the other hand, a double proc certainly gives you an excellent window for you to  BF > AR > go ham in!

That said, as to what can statistically do more damage during x amount of time with z conditions in situation y, the spreadsheet is likely right.

Thank you for your insign on this. Crusader shows highest in spreadsheet but it happened countless times to me that on bosses like chromagus, broodlord, firemaw, nefarian it proced during time i had to run out, unable to deal dmg, and or was sitting in a good time waiting for crusader to proc with my CDs ready wasting time which made me question its overall edge in spreadheets over +agil or +dmg when it came to waste due to mechanics.

Ill try out +15agil for 2 weeks and then +5 weapon dmg to see how my dmg changes between the two in raids.