Update the pvp gear on Zeth/Ely with BWL patch

[TTL 6]

On 5/27/2017 at 9:15 PM, QQsya said:

Elysium will die without PvP.  PvP will die without people actually having an incentive to queue.  Thanks for proving my point. 

 

 Lol?  Dedicated PvPers are still PvPing and forming premades right now.  They are basically the only ones doing so.  They are the ones who PvP for the fun of it and don't care that the gear is shit.  Pugging basically means fighting premades in 9/10 games right now, there are stretches of 12+ hours at a time on Zeth where literally the only alliance in the queue are the premade.  Horde pugs are guaranteed to fight a premade during those hours because the premade has the only people  who can be bothered queueing.

At any rate, anti-premade whining by S-key clicker warlocks is not what this thread is about. 

This is very wrong, yes many premades exist mainly on Alliance side and chain queue only the first 4-5 days of the week to get their honor caps but they are not the majority that are PvPing all week long. After that it's just regular pvpers who are actually pvping for fun, not rank 14. I view these people as the good PvP base because they can play games and either side can stand a chance without forming a premade, not the premade cancer that isn't looking for a challenge but ez honor to start with as proved by them ending games as fast as possible, and not queuing all week long when they could. In fact many of those in premades are not allowed to play outside of the premades to ensure their honor is the same. Cancer is cancer, deal with it rather than making excuses for it.

[QQsya 4]

4 hours ago, TTL said:

 I think the gear being low tier is a good thing especially for PvE.

On 5/27/2017 at 11:33 PM, Caber said:

Protip: If your immediate reaction to this suggestion is "fuck off I dont want pvp gear to be as good as pve gear" you should eat a dick take a step back and think about why you think so. Explain why you think so that it can be discussed, evaluated, and (this is probably why you dont do it), potentially proven wrong.

I don't even have to type up an original response to this, it's already been said.  I'm sorry but everything you've said has already been addressed.  If you just want to have fun and play one pug vs pug WSG a week then you are not the main target of these changes, but they will still benefit you by proxy, because they will increase overall PVP participation and lessen your chance of meeting a premade in random soloqueue games.

Nothing you said in the other post, the one directly above this one, actually contradicts anything I said.  It just sounds like sour grapes.  I don't have the time/dedication/patience(notice how I left out skill, yes, vanilla is not a hard game except in terms of time investment required unless you're playing in the absolute top 1% of content, be it tier 3 raiding or full on consumable spamming premade vs premade) to join a premade and get to a high rank and therefore the gear should be shit!

No one has yet to explain why one form of in-game organized cooperation towards a goal should be rewarded over another form.  In vanilla, you group up with other players, you kill stuff together, eventually you get loot.  That's both PVE and PVP.  Yet grouping up to grind PVP rank, which is much more involved in terms of time required, is rewarded with far inferior gear to grouping up to grind dragons.

If you dislike facing premades, this change will dilute their presence by adding more casual solo queuers to the mix, while also not disabling a core game mechanic and not punishing people for being successful in PVP. Whether you yourself actually care about the gear is irrelevant, many people do and many of those people will start to queue a few games a week to get their 2piece if it actually becomes worth it. Some people may decide that grinding r7 over a few weeks sounds more fun than grinding 5 mans to get whatever their pre-raid BiS boots and gloves are.  Some people may go to r8 or even r10 just to have a few extra pieces to keep from breaking their 2 piece set until a suitable upgrade comes along from PVE.  Whatever their reasons, the people who don't care about the gear rewards at all and only want fun pug vs pug games will benefit as well simply by having more pugs in the queue to play with/against.

 

Final thoughts:  Why is wearing PVP gear in PVE bad but wearing PVE gear in PVP perfectly fine? Many BiS PVP items come from PVE, many BiS PVE items come from PVP.  So it goes.  This is vanilla, where the line between the two is already quite blurry.  As content releases and PVP gear starts to fall further and further behind the PVE gear, more and more players will start to shut themselves off from fully one-half of the endgame content, and it's the half that requires a much larger time investment and keeps the server active. All we want is parity, the parity which has been numerically proven multiple times in this thread.  No one wants the gear buffed to a non-blizzlike state or to be stronger than PVE gear.

Old Nostalrius released the updated PVP gear in 1.7, and despite how they turned out in the end, I don't think anyone could accuse them of aiming to be un-blizzlike.  Why, then, did they do that?  Because even such sticklers for blizzlikeness realized that a few sparse "non-blizzlike" changes are  necessary for the overall health of the server, as our own admins already acknowledged with the change to respec cost, or the nerf to certain gold farming methods, among other things.  And, guilds still cleared BWL every single week.  People still wore their T2, life went on.  Not a single guild said "oh welp ranker gear is on par with BWL gear now, guess we better stop raiding and go grind everyone to r14 instead before we continue". 

[TTL 6]

2 hours ago, QQsya said:

I don't even have to type up an original response to this, it's already been said.  I'm sorry but everything you've said has already been addressed.  If you just want to have fun and play one pug vs pug WSG a week then you are not the main target of these changes, but they will still benefit you by proxy, because they will increase overall PVP participation and lessen your chance of meeting a premade in random soloqueue games.

Nothing you said in the other post, the one directly above this one, actually contradicts anything I said.  It just sounds like sour grapes.  I don't have the time/dedication/patience(notice how I left out skill, yes, vanilla is not a hard game except in terms of time investment required unless you're playing in the absolute top 1% of content, be it tier 3 raiding or full on consumable spamming premade vs premade) to join a premade and get to a high rank and therefore the gear should be shit!

No one has yet to explain why one form of in-game organized cooperation towards a goal should be rewarded over another form.  In vanilla, you group up with other players, you kill stuff together, eventually you get loot.  That's both PVE and PVP.  Yet grouping up to grind PVP rank, which is much more involved in terms of time required, is rewarded with far inferior gear to grouping up to grind dragons.

If you dislike facing premades, this change will dilute their presence by adding more casual solo queuers to the mix, while also not disabling a core game mechanic and not punishing people for being successful in PVP. Whether you yourself actually care about the gear is irrelevant, many people do and many of those people will start to queue a few games a week to get their 2piece if it actually becomes worth it. Some people may decide that grinding r7 over a few weeks sounds more fun than grinding 5 mans to get whatever their pre-raid BiS boots and gloves are.  Some people may go to r8 or even r10 just to have a few extra pieces to keep from breaking their 2 piece set until a suitable upgrade comes along from PVE.  Whatever their reasons, the people who don't care about the gear rewards at all and only want fun pug vs pug games will benefit as well simply by having more pugs in the queue to play with/against.

 

Final thoughts:  Why is wearing PVP gear in PVE bad but wearing PVE gear in PVP perfectly fine? Many BiS PVP items come from PVE, many BiS PVE items come from PVP.  So it goes.  This is vanilla, where the line between the two is already quite blurry.  As content releases and PVP gear starts to fall further and further behind the PVE gear, more and more players will start to shut themselves off from fully one-half of the endgame content, and it's the half that requires a much larger time investment and keeps the server active. All we want is parity, the parity which has been numerically proven multiple times in this thread.  No one wants the gear buffed to a non-blizzlike state or to be stronger than PVE gear.

Old Nostalrius released the updated PVP gear in 1.7, and despite how they turned out in the end, I don't think anyone could accuse them of aiming to be un-blizzlike.  Why, then, did they do that?  Because even such sticklers for blizzlikeness realized that a few sparse "non-blizzlike" changes are  necessary for the overall health of the server, as our own admins already acknowledged with the change to respec cost, or the nerf to certain gold farming methods, among other things.  And, guilds still cleared BWL every single week.  People still wore their T2, life went on.  Not a single guild said "oh welp ranker gear is on par with BWL gear now, guess we better stop raiding and go grind everyone to r14 instead before we continue". 

Sad you can't think outside the box, but i'll explain it to you.

In PvE you have to actually go into raids with 40 other players each week, rely on an RNG drop, then be the said winner of that loot.

In PvP you move into your moms basement, queue up with 14 others that can play 24/7 just to hit the skillless honor cap, obtain rank 14 items and then have them upgrade INSTANTLY into Tier 2 items and if you let people choose they would expect them to be updated again for AQ40 and Naxx instantly without having to re-obtain them. All it does is make PvE that much easier instantly.

[QQsya 4]

If that's actually what you think I feel sorry for you.  You're apparently yet another one of those people who thinks that free BG wins just start falling from the sky as soon as you queue as a raid group.  

I like how I wrote out a long and detailed response and despite quoting it, you address none of it, and instead just keep crying about losing to premades which again, isn't what this thread is for.  Go make your own thread for that.

>All it does is make PvE that much easier instantly.

Most PvE content is already trivially easy aside from the last few bosses of each tier.  This was addressed earlier as well.  People doing at most like 2% more dps than they ordinarily would on content that's been on farm for 13 years is not going to kill the server, what will kill the server is raidlogging. 

All throughout this thread I've tried to be cordial and to provide actual facts, item links, numbers, etc to support my argument.  You people do nothing but insult me and argue from your gut. Sad! To shamelessly lift a phrase from another poster in this thread, it's no surprise that the least reasonable side of the argument has the least reasonable people arguing for it.

[Caber 4]

8 hours ago, TTL said:

Sad you can't think outside the box, but i'll explain it to you.

In PvE you have to actually go into raids with 40 other players each week, rely on an RNG drop, then be the said winner of that loot.

In PvP you move into your moms basement, queue up with 14 others that can play 24/7 just to hit the skillless honor cap, obtain rank 14 items and then have them upgrade INSTANTLY into Tier 2 items and if you let people choose they would expect them to be updated again for AQ40 and Naxx instantly without having to re-obtain them. All it does is make PvE that much easier instantly.

If obtaining rank 14 items is so easy, why doesn't everyone do it?

If raiding is so hard, why are 50+ guilds in MC and almost everyone runs around in MC gear?

[TTL 6]

16 hours ago, Caber said:

If obtaining rank 14 items is so easy, why doesn't everyone do it?

If raiding is so hard, why are 50+ guilds in MC and almost everyone runs around in MC gear?

Surely your not really this short sighted. Rank 14 is limited to 1-2 people a week, but if playing 15-20 hours a day in premades all week is actually considered hard or difficult to you then you got your definitions mixed up, most simply can't do it because they have real life responsibilities and not everyone is living off their parents and not because they couldn't do it. Trying to equalize rank 14 no lifers to some form of skill is quite silly. It's like saying High Warlord = Gladiator which isn't the case, one involved a heap of time and the other actually evolves skill or difficulty.

If you actually read my post you would have realized I was not expressing any form of skill in my post but merely pointing out it requires dedicated guilds to clear content and it would take months to earn the gear. Saying to upgrade PvP gear that you earned 6 months ago into instant Tier 2 quality is silly. It's like PvE players saying turn my MC gear into BWL gear on release day. 

[doodoobrown 1]

22 hours ago, TTL said:

Surely your not really this short sighted. Rank 14 is limited to 1-2 people a week, but if playing 15-20 hours a day in premades all week is actually considered hard or difficult to you then you got your definitions mixed up, most simply can't do it because they have real life responsibilities and not everyone is living off their parents and not because they couldn't do it.

How many trade premades do you see that crop up and disappear within the same day they're formed? You're assuming that the second you form a premade and have everyone on a VOIP all pugs bend to you and every other premade is immediately willing to dodge you.

Have you ever been in one of these premades, even momentarily? They constantly shift placement for people that perform better or understand objectives in BGs when other strong premades are forming. Without skilled teammates or people conscious of objectives any group of people, even on a VOIP, is nothing more than a coordinated pug.

22 hours ago, TTL said:

If you actually read my post you would have realized I was not expressing any form of skill in my post but merely pointing out it requires dedicated guilds to clear content and it would take months to earn the gear. Saying to upgrade PvP gear that you earned 6 months ago into instant Tier 2 quality is silly. It's like PvE players saying turn my MC gear into BWL gear on release day. 

You're confusing this with retail, if you want to learn how to beat a boss on 12 year old content then just go on wowhead or ownedcore and read up on it. Most people in raids expect to be carried and put little to no effort in learning their rotations, learning boss mechanics, or learning to gear correctly. The guilds that have trouble with this content usually have a dedicated core of people who care and a never-ending supply of people they recruited off trade who want free loot. If guilds are taking months to clear content they need to screen recruits better because most new content is cleared within hours of it being released.

Also, "instant Tier 2 quality." Stop. We're completely willing --and this has already been said-- to let people kill their 12 year old dragon within 2 hours of BWL patch being released before having PvP gear updated. We'll even wait until the ZG patch when people are burnt out and raidlogging in full Tier 2, but any longer could cause the most active player base to quit because they're stuck grinding 10+ hours a day for gear that's equivalent to pre-buff Tier 1. It has been proven that the difference between the updated sets and BWL BiS is marginal in PvE (I made a list on google docs comparing the gear earlier in the thread) and also this is gear that less than 1% of the server population will have, it barely affects the server as a whole. If anything updated Tier 2 will make BGs a nightmare for pugs because of how easy it is to get and it has near equivalent stats to updated r13 gear. So the premades that have been stomping pugs are going to get tougher jackboots, even on Nost all the premades used PvE gear primarily and yet here you are whining about gear that less than 1% of the server will get.

If you think learning a 1-3 button rotation and reading up on a boss for 5 minutes is more difficult than competing against actual players, then you either completely ignore PvP and assume the worst of it or are deliberately deluding yourself for the sake of your argument.

 

[Caber 4]

7 hours ago, TTL said:

Surely your not really this short sighted. Rank 14 is limited to 1-2 people a week, but if playing 15-20 hours a day in premades all week is actually considered hard or difficult to you then you got your definitions mixed up, most simply can't do it because they have real life responsibilities and not everyone is living off their parents and not because they couldn't do it. Trying to equalize rank 14 no lifers to some form of skill is quite silly. It's like saying High Warlord = Gladiator which isn't the case, one involved a heap of time and the other actually evolves skill or difficulty.

If you actually read my post you would have realized I was not expressing any form of skill in my post but merely pointing out it requires dedicated guilds to clear content and it would take months to earn the gear. Saying to upgrade PvP gear that you earned 6 months ago into instant Tier 2 quality is silly. It's like PvE players saying turn my MC gear into BWL gear on release day. 

> it requires dedicated guilds to clear content and it would take months to earn the gear.

How many months of hard work did it take for Anathema guilds to get cthun down?

How many months of hard work did it take for the serverfirst Rag kill on Ely? Rag in this patch drops better weaponry than the r14 weapons, mind you, because they failed to have them at their proper strength.

 

Face it, "achieving" PvE loot nowadays (yes, nowadays) comes down to reading guides and having a lot of other people in your guild that also put in the huge effort to read those guides. I'm sure the person raidleading or the person handling guild organization puts in a lot of legwork to get the guild there... but that's a small amount of people out of the 40 who are eligible for loot.

 

[QQsya 4]

>In PvE you have to actually go into raids with 40 other players each week, rely on an RNG drop, then be the said winner of that loot.

Wow!  In PvE you have to actually show up, and sometimes the item you want doesn't drop! Very challenging!

[TTL 6]

On 6/10/2017 at 7:55 AM, doodoobrown said:

How many trade premades do you see that crop up and disappear within the same day they're formed? You're assuming that the second you form a premade and have everyone on a VOIP all pugs bend to you and every other premade is immediately willing to dodge you.

Have you ever been in one of these premades, even momentarily? They constantly shift placement for people that perform better or understand objectives in BGs when other strong premades are forming. Without skilled teammates or people conscious of objectives any group of people, even on a VOIP, is nothing more than a coordinated pug.

You're confusing this with retail, if you want to learn how to beat a boss on 12 year old content then just go on wowhead or ownedcore and read up on it. Most people in raids expect to be carried and put little to no effort in learning their rotations, learning boss mechanics, or learning to gear correctly. The guilds that have trouble with this content usually have a dedicated core of people who care and a never-ending supply of people they recruited off trade who want free loot. If guilds are taking months to clear content they need to screen recruits better because most new content is cleared within hours of it being released.

Also, "instant Tier 2 quality." Stop. We're completely willing --and this has already been said-- to let people kill their 12 year old dragon within 2 hours of BWL patch being released before having PvP gear updated. We'll even wait until the ZG patch when people are burnt out and raidlogging in full Tier 2, but any longer could cause the most active player base to quit because they're stuck grinding 10+ hours a day for gear that's equivalent to pre-buff Tier 1. It has been proven that the difference between the updated sets and BWL BiS is marginal in PvE (I made a list on google docs comparing the gear earlier in the thread) and also this is gear that less than 1% of the server population will have, it barely affects the server as a whole. If anything updated Tier 2 will make BGs a nightmare for pugs because of how easy it is to get and it has near equivalent stats to updated r13 gear. So the premades that have been stomping pugs are going to get tougher jackboots, even on Nost all the premades used PvE gear primarily and yet here you are whining about gear that less than 1% of the server will get.

If you think learning a 1-3 button rotation and reading up on a boss for 5 minutes is more difficult than competing against actual players, then you either completely ignore PvP and assume the worst of it or are deliberately deluding yourself for the sake of your argument.

 

Considering there are little to no premades on Horde on Elysium I would say I assume right knowing there is dozens on Alliance and you can queue against 3-4 different ones within the same hour, it's also why Alliance have to gain nearly double the honor each week.

I would focus more on facts and less on your subjective and rather weak insults, pvp on a 12 year old game blah blah blah.

Seriously stop trying to say living in your mothers basement and playing for honor somehow equals skill, it doesn't. The worst player on the server could play 24 hours a day and get rank 14 as long as he gets the honor. Gladiator was skill based, forcing you to compete and climb a bracket, this PvP system is simply time based and I don't see the alliance guilds on Elysium having much trouble.

Deluding, I would agree with you. Don't break the mirror.

[TTL 6]

On 6/10/2017 at 9:06 AM, Caber said:

> it requires dedicated guilds to clear content and it would take months to earn the gear.

How many months of hard work did it take for Anathema guilds to get cthun down?

How many months of hard work did it take for the serverfirst Rag kill on Ely? Rag in this patch drops better weaponry than the r14 weapons, mind you, because they failed to have them at their proper strength.

 

Face it, "achieving" PvE loot nowadays (yes, nowadays) comes down to reading guides and having a lot of other people in your guild that also put in the huge effort to read those guides. I'm sure the person raidleading or the person handling guild organization puts in a lot of legwork to get the guild there... but that's a small amount of people out of the 40 who are eligible for loot.

 

You mean all them guilds still struggling today? Of course it takes dedicated guilds to clear it quickly and months to still earn the Tier pieces they would use in PvP. Instant upgrading your gear or playing 24 hours a day to "out preform" a skilled person that can PvP only 6 hours a day isn't my definition or hard or "skill based".

But kay ^^

[TTL 6]

On 6/9/2017 at 8:34 AM, QQsya said:

If that's actually what you think I feel sorry for you.  You're apparently yet another one of those people who thinks that free BG wins just start falling from the sky as soon as you queue as a raid group.  

I like how I wrote out a long and detailed response and despite quoting it, you address none of it, and instead just keep crying about losing to premades which again, isn't what this thread is for.  Go make your own thread for that.

>All it does is make PvE that much easier instantly.

Most PvE content is already trivially easy aside from the last few bosses of each tier.  This was addressed earlier as well.  People doing at most like 2% more dps than they ordinarily would on content that's been on farm for 13 years is not going to kill the server, what will kill the server is raidlogging. 

All throughout this thread I've tried to be cordial and to provide actual facts, item links, numbers, etc to support my argument.  You people do nothing but insult me and argue from your gut. Sad! To shamelessly lift a phrase from another poster in this thread, it's no surprise that the least reasonable side of the argument has the least reasonable people arguing for it.

Considering I play horde and anytime we queue against a premade 1/2 the team goes AFK or doesn't try, yes I would say so. What garbage are you trying to peddle? seriously get lost.

[Caber 4]

11 hours ago, TTL said:

You mean all them guilds still struggling today? Of course it takes dedicated guilds to clear it quickly and months to still earn the Tier pieces they would use in PvP. Instant upgrading your gear or playing 24 hours a day to "out preform" a skilled person that can PvP only 6 hours a day isn't my definition or hard or "skill based".

But kay ^^

You kind of shifted your argument from "it takes months for dedicated guilds to clear it" to "it takes months for guilds to clear it, and dedicated ones do it quick".

Playing 24 hours a day seems like a feat of dedication to me either way, so I'm not sure where the mindset that it should go unrewarded comes from.

[QQsya 4]

You being too shit to get invited to a premade doesn't mean there's no premades going, btw.  There are at least two on Elysium Horde, they probably just don't want backpedaling male undead rogues. At any rate it's irrelevant, I've seen quite a few people who solo queued to rank 13 on old Nost/Anathema and they'd get the gear for doing the grind just the same as someone who premaded their way there would.

>I would focus more on facts and less on your subjective and rather weak insults, pvp on a 12 year old game blah blah blah.

This is absolutely hilarious considering your entire ``argument`` is "rankers = noskill fags who live in their mom's basement lol", while the only facts needed were posted in a google docs spreadsheet two pages back.  The fact is that it's been both mathematically and experimentally proven in this very thread that the updated PvP gear is roughly at par with T2.  The fact that you hate rankers because you got GY farmed to r8 and then gave up doesn't change it.

[TTL 6]

19 hours ago, Caber said:

You kind of shifted your argument from "it takes months for dedicated guilds to clear it" to "it takes months for guilds to clear it, and dedicated ones do it quick".

Playing 24 hours a day seems like a feat of dedication to me either way, so I'm not sure where the mindset that it should go unrewarded comes from.

If you want to focus on a play of words go for it, my point still stands. It takes months to CLEAR and get the gear, opposed to instantly upgrading PvP gear that was only earned one time.

[TTL 6]

16 hours ago, QQsya said:

You being too shit to get invited to a premade doesn't mean there's no premades going, btw.  There are at least two on Elysium Horde, they probably just don't want backpedaling male undead rogues. At any rate it's irrelevant, I've seen quite a few people who solo queued to rank 13 on old Nost/Anathema and they'd get the gear for doing the grind just the same as someone who premaded their way there would.

>I would focus more on facts and less on your subjective and rather weak insults, pvp on a 12 year old game blah blah blah.

This is absolutely hilarious considering your entire ``argument`` is "rankers = noskill fags who live in their mom's basement lol", while the only facts needed were posted in a google docs spreadsheet two pages back.  The fact is that it's been both mathematically and experimentally proven in this very thread that the updated PvP gear is roughly at par with T2.  The fact that you hate rankers because you got GY farmed to r8 and then gave up doesn't change it.

I've been invited to premades before but what does that actually have to do with ANYTHING I said? If you're going to insult like a child, try to come up with childish insults, not ones a baby would come up with. I don't bother with premades because I don't live with my mother and can play 12 hours every day, some of us actually have things to do in life. If I lost the argument I'd probably throw some personal insults too. Did saying 'get lost' hurt your feelings? Do we need a safe place here? 

I don't hate rankers at all just making the point that this PvP system is clearly a time sink, not a skill based system at all and if you're going to say otherwise than your just as deluded as all the people who buy into propaganda news. I can say however I dislike seeing nothing but boring premades steamrolling each BG in 2 minutes making them pointless but I'm sure I speak for everyone who bothers to solo queue. Also I wouldn't mathematically add stamina into a PvE gear equation. Also funny seeing you try to use the word 'fact'. Rogue = GY camped. Hilarious.

Good day to you, and just a suggestion I wouldn't continue sharing your logic on the forums as I'm sure you don't want people laughing at you because you just seem ridiculous.

[QQsya 4]

>I don't hate rankers at all, I dislike however seeing nothing but boring premades steamrolling each BG in 2 minute

Premade crying is not the point of this thread.

>Also I wouldn't mathematically add stamina into a PvE gear equation

Our entire point. Stam aside the gear is more or less equal in terms of DPS stats.

>It takes months to CLEAR and get the gear

It takes months to get to r14.  With some luck on the drop tables you could probably get full t1 AND t2 in the time it takes to get r14 if your guild isn't completely terrible.

>opposed to instantly upgrading PvP gear that was only earned one time.

What about the people who rank after the update?  You realize that's exactly what happened in retail anyway right?  People who had already ranked and gotten the epic set had it updated when the update was released. And guess what, people who already have the r14 weapons will have them upgraded automagically when BWL releases and the weapons are updated.

I'm starting to think you actually agree with me and are just playing devil's advocate by trying to show how retarded and full of logical fallacies and internal inconsistencies the anti-update crowd is.  No one can unironically be this dense. 

[QQsya 4]

Also:

LOL i actually have a life unlike u nerds also ur shit, SHIT!!!!1

 

PS I don't live in my mom's basement, I live in the attic :^)

[TTL 6]

2 hours ago, QQsya said:

>I don't hate rankers at all, I dislike however seeing nothing but boring premades steamrolling each BG in 2 minute

Premade crying is not the point of this thread.

>Also I wouldn't mathematically add stamina into a PvE gear equation

Our entire point. Stam aside the gear is more or less equal in terms of DPS stats.

>It takes months to CLEAR and get the gear

It takes months to get to r14.  With some luck on the drop tables you could probably get full t1 AND t2 in the time it takes to get r14 if your guild isn't completely terrible.

>opposed to instantly upgrading PvP gear that was only earned one time.

What about the people who rank after the update?  You realize that's exactly what happened in retail anyway right?  People who had already ranked and gotten the epic set had it updated when the update was released. And guess what, people who already have the r14 weapons will have them upgraded automagically when BWL releases and the weapons are updated.

I'm starting to think you actually agree with me and are just playing devil's advocate by trying to show how retarded and full of logical fallacies and internal inconsistencies the anti-update crowd is.  No one can unironically be this dense. 

Last I checked, PvP gear will not be updated until after AQ40 unless something has recently changed so I'm not sure how we could ever agree at all.

[TTL 6]

"In actual retail they weren't updated until Naxx.  But they kind of suck, most of them are barely on par with MC gear and will only get worse as time goes on until there's no point in ranking anymore unless you push all the way to the top.  On old Nost,  many "non-rankers" would queue just for a few weeks just to get 2 or 4 pieces of the set for the set bonuses and because of that Nost always had a very active PVP community. 

The updated blues also already exist on Anathema.

This is probably the one non-blizzlike change that Nost made to pvp that actually worked out for the better."

"What about the people who rank after the update?  You realize that's exactly what happened in retail anyway right?  People who had already ranked and gotten the epic set had it updated when the update was released. And guess what, people who already have the r14 weapons will have them upgraded automagically when BWL releases and the weapons are updated.

I'm starting to think you actually agree with me and are just playing devil's advocate by trying to show how retarded and full of logical fallacies and internal inconsistencies the anti-update crowd is.  No one can unironically be this dense. "

i'm like... 

Epic "inconsistency", that is truly ironic. It's like i'm talking to a 15 year old that thinks he is right about everything but is actually talking about himself. Nothing I have said is inconsistent. I've stated I disagree with the items being upgraded at BWL because it's instant upgrades that make PvE easier and that I find it a silly system to instantly upgrade them at the next patch.

My arguments why I could care less.
-Rank 14 is earned by a minority as limited to a couple a week
-Most Rank 14 players just mindlessly run 2 min games without any amazing competition making their PvP contribution minimal.
-Lol @ instantly upgrading items into the next tier

Unless Elysium Staff has changed their minds since you created this thread I'll enjoy continuing to read your bs, stories, and lies. Brb I'll get some more popcorn.

[Caber 4]

7 hours ago, TTL said:

If you want to focus on a play of words go for it, my point still stands. It takes months to CLEAR and get the gear, opposed to instantly upgrading PvP gear that was only earned one time.

No, it doesn't take months to clear. Ragnaros drops Naxx tier weaponry on Ely/ZK right now and it was cleared in the literal first week of the server. Cthun was ded within a week of release on Ana too, wasn't he?

 

Quote

I've stated I disagree with the items being upgraded at BWL because it's instant upgrades that make PvE easier

You've stated this a lot, and there's quite a few counterpoints that you've been ignoring.

-pve is already easier than on retail because of items that are buffed compared to what they should be like.

-pve is already easier than on retail because of 1.12.1 talents.

-pve is already easier than on retail because of addons such as bigwigs and comprehensive guides being around for every single fight.

With all these things in mind (and please, do point if you don't think they're correct), "it would make pve easier" is kind of a shitty point. pve is already much easier than it was on retail due to various changes that many people consider positive. How many warriors would be motivated to raid as dps if Rag didn't drop the buffed Naxx-tier BRE on Ely/ZK?

I hope you're not selectively blind as to this point again. I've repeatedly stated it and you've been repeatedly ignoring it.

[Myllz 8]

"It would make PvE easier" is a pretty invalid argument.  The only major boost to making PvE easier would be the R14 weapons, and only a select few would have those anyway.  

[QQsya 4]

Not to mention the r14 weapons already get updated in 1.6.

 

@ other guy And exactly what about what you've quoted there is inconsistent?  Do you know what that word even means?  Everything you've said is inconsistent, your reasoning makes no sense to anyone but yourself, you complain about being insulted while your own argumentation is nothing but insults, and you show a startling and profound ignorance of both PvE and PvP. Just stop posting before you make yourself look even dumber (not possible).

[TTL 6]

13 hours ago, Caber said:

No, it doesn't take months to clear. Ragnaros drops Naxx tier weaponry on Ely/ZK right now and it was cleared in the literal first week of the server. Cthun was ded within a week of release on Ana too, wasn't he?

 

You've stated this a lot, and there's quite a few counterpoints that you've been ignoring.

-pve is already easier than on retail because of items that are buffed compared to what they should be like.

-pve is already easier than on retail because of 1.12.1 talents.

-pve is already easier than on retail because of addons such as bigwigs and comprehensive guides being around for every single fight.

With all these things in mind (and please, do point if you don't think they're correct), "it would make pve easier" is kind of a shitty point. pve is already much easier than it was on retail due to various changes that many people consider positive. How many warriors would be motivated to raid as dps if Rag didn't drop the buffed Naxx-tier BRE on Ely/ZK?

I hope you're not selectively blind as to this point again. I've repeatedly stated it and you've been repeatedly ignoring it.

Are you trying to be an idiot? I'm saying it takes months to clear "AND" get the gear. Stop trying to read what you want to read because you're only making a fool out of yourself like the other guy.

[Caber 4]

2 hours ago, TTL said:

Are you trying to be an idiot? I'm saying it takes months to clear "AND" get the gear. Stop trying to read what you want to read because you're only making a fool out of yourself like the other guy.

No, it doesn't take months to clear AND get the gear. You get gear the first time you clear it. Guaranteed to.