Ret 2x proc rates and utility procs

[Xaph 1]

Hello, I was hoping to get a discussion going about the potential utility that a ret paladin can bring to a raid based around their uptime on item procs. I know this has been documented for items like Nightfall but perhaps someone might be familiar with the benefits of other items which can increase raid dps like http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=12798.

Annihilator
Binds when equipped

Main HandAxe

49 - 92 DamageSpeed 1.70

(41.5 damage per second)
Durability 90 / 90
Requires Level 58

Chance on hit: Reduces an enemy's armor by 200. Stacks up to 3 times.

I don't know what the typical armor level is on a boss after sunder/cor/ff but armor pen does get better as the targets armor gets lower. This axe in particular is fast enough that the proc rate would remain high while it can be used for a 1h spell dmg ret build. Anyone come across anything else?

[Theloras 108]

I, myself swing Nightall with SoR spell dmg build for my guild and I suggested the possibility of adding another Paladin using Annihilator or a similar type weapon with SoR but due to 16 debuff slot limitations, it really wasn't viable for our situation (ie: our MT has Thunderfury so that puts up 2 debuff slots alone):

1. Thunderfury Proc (NR vulnerability)
2. Thunderfury Proc (Attack Speed Debuff)
3. Mindflay
4. Curse of Shadow
5. Curse of Elements
6. SPriest Shadow Word Pain
7. Shadow Weaving (spriest shadow vuln)
8. Sunder Armor
9. Nightfall
10. Judgment of Crusader (If Thelo or Smiter raiding)
11. Curse of Recklessness
12. Hunters Mark
13. Shadow Vulnerability (Improved Shadowbolt)
14. Faerie Fire
15. Winters Chill / Scorch
16. Situational Debuff

Situational Debuffs
1. Vampiric Embrace - Golemag, Vael, Firemaw, Magmadar, Flamegor
2. Judgement of Light - Golemag, Vael, Firemaw, Magmadar, Flamegor
3. Judgment of Wisdom - Onyxia, Nef, Chromag


Considered but not included:

1. Thunderclap - doesn't stack with TF proc. Since we have two TF's now, should never be needed.
2. Impale - this will automatically be put on the boss but since it's low prio will be pushed off and can't push off high prio debuffs.
3. Demoralizing Shout (140 AP reduction to boss) - doesn't do much in raids. isn't worth the slot

[Xaph 1]

That makes sense. I wonder given current scaling if the armor would provide more raid dps than nightfall depending on how melee heavy your guild is?

[Theloras 108]

2 minutes ago, Xaph said:

That makes sense. I wonder given current scaling if the armor would provide more raid dps than nightfall depending on how melee heavy your guild is?

honestly you will get more acceptance and heads nodding for you if you swing Nightfall since its a very well known item and the debuff makes the casters jizz their pants (ie: it makes a very noticeable difference)

[Xaph 1]

Fair enough, I was just hoping to get some discussion going!

That axe, from what i've ready can be maintained at a full 3 stacks. If that's the case then we get 600 armor pen for the raid.

Going off of the AQ40 armor values since I can't find any other ones for these servers shows bosses having 6220 armor. source https://github.com/elysium-project/server/issues/1049

That means that Sunder + COR + FF (do these all stack) would make the boss's armor 6220 - 2250 - 640 - 505 = 2825

With 3 stack Annihilator that would be 2825 - 600 = 2225

Based on a post from Ownedcore back in 2006, again if the source is wrong I'm open! source http://www.ownedcore.com/forums/world-of-warcraft/world-of-warcraft-guides/2206-warrior-damage-mechanics.html

AC dmg reduction can be caluclated as follows:  Their DPS decrease = Your_AC / (Your_AC + Their_Level * 85 + 400)

For no Annihilator that means

2825/(2825+60*85+400) = 33.93%

With Annihilator

2225/(2225+60*85+400) = 28.80%

A dps increase of 5.13%

 

If we then take your guild's last AQ40 run and use only the warrior and hunter dps numbers because I don't know how to control for poison damage for rogues, the unfiltered dps number across all bosses would be 1431 dps. Increasing just the warriors and hunter dps by 5% would be a total of 71.55 dps. Now I don't know if these numbers are accurate based on the formulas I used, and again I didn't take into account the rogues. In addition, your raid uses a boomkin meaning I can only imagine you're more caster focused. What are your thoughts?

[Theloras 108]

your personal dps will be $hite with anihilator though and while it will still be meh with Nightfall it's at least a large DPS increase as a decent 2hander compared to a rather lack luster 1hander

I'd stay with Nightfall if I were you - it's a known and sought after item to have in raids and the DPS increase for the casters really is apparent to them right away.

With SoR swinging Nightfall, I have ~25-30% uptime on the debuff

[Xaph 1]

13 hours ago, Theloras said:

your personal dps will be $hite with anihilator though and while it will still be meh with Nightfall it's at least a large DPS increase as a decent 2hander compared to a rather lack luster 1hander

I think that's partially true if we're talking about using SoR and going for procs. The only difference between the two weapons for SoR spell dmg build are the 10.8 vs 9.2 scaling with spell power, the base 22 dps difference and the nightfall proc for your own dps. The 1h will let you use a solid oh for extra spell dmg and you will have much higher vengeance uptime due to the faster 1h. You'll also be able to use higher ranks of consecrate if you use JoW but that doesn't really matter for the comparison.

I do agree you will see a personal dps loss but I think it's interesting that ret can use items and not have too much of a dps penalty because we don't have any instant abilities that scale with AP other than SoC.

It's cool too because it's just a weapon swap and no other gear meaning you could do it during phases where melee are more prominent or on bosses. Just a thought.

[Theloras 108]

you are forgetting that the Nightfall debuff will also boost your personal DPS as well for SoR/JoR and Consecration

whereas the anihilator debuff would only increase auto-attack marginally 

[Xaph 1]

3 hours ago, Theloras said:

you are forgetting that the Nightfall debuff will also boost your personal DPS as well for SoR/JoR and Consecration

whereas the anihilator debuff would only increase auto-attack marginally 

I did mention the nightfall debuff for personal dps but I think the increased vengeance uptime would more than make up for it as it would boost both physical and holy damage.

It also might be because Nightfall on Elysium is the 3.2 speed 67 dps version, but either way the uptime on vengeance would be over 15% more than with Nightfall. I think it would take AQ40 + Naxx gear for Nightfall to pull more than 50 dps ahead and at that point the melee dps would benefit immensely. Anyways, just thought I'd speculate and run some numbers. After reading up on yours and Saphael's posts in the past I think ret pally can provide more raid support than initially thought but it requires everyone else to be on board. The spell damage SoR build really opens up some cool possibilities because of the kind of scaling.

[Xaph 1]

Thinking about it, the debuff lasts for 45s, you could even swap weapons for 30ish seconds. You'd have to do the math but outside of a really bad stretch of procs it might be worth it.

[Theloras 108]

53 minutes ago, Xaph said:

Thinking about it, the debuff lasts for 45s, you could even swap weapons for 30ish seconds. You'd have to do the math but outside of a really bad stretch of procs it might be worth it.

no i know but you still run into the 16 slot debuff limit if you try to put up both

[Xaph 1]

55 minutes ago, Theloras said:

no i know but you still run into the 16 slot debuff limit if you try to put up both

I was thinking another weapon to bump your personal dps, and replace nightfall debuff w/ annihilator

[Whitewolf 1]

With the way percentages work it would actually be a 7.2% damage increase using your reduction % in the OP. So if you want it to surpass nightfall the physical dps of the raid needs to be double the magical dps assuming 100% uptime on nightfall. With 50% uptime you have an even playing field.

Now using annihilator definately seems better than shadow word: pain on paper. The real question is what priority does it have?

[Xaph 1]

16 hours ago, Whitewolf said:

With the way percentages work it would actually be a 7.2% damage increase using your reduction % in the OP. So if you want it to surpass nightfall the physical dps of the raid needs to be double the magical dps assuming 100% uptime on nightfall. With 50% uptime you have an even playing field.

Now using annihilator definately seems better than shadow word: pain on paper. The real question is what priority does it have?

The comparison with Nightfall is true if the melee and caster raid dps is equal, but that's why I mentioned that a melee oriented raid comp would benefit even more. Of course the opposite is true if you're caster heavy, but the nice thing is its a weapon so you can swap it depending on the fight.