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desolace1

wpvp spec leveling?

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Hey, i just started playing rogue for the first time and need some advice for some world pvp spec while leveling. I don't mind slower mob killing/leveling, i want to be prepared for pvp and practice it a bit before lvl 60. I read something about Cold Blood/Preparation or Hemo builds but i'm confused because some people say you should use backstab instead of ss/hemo but backstab can be used only from behind. Also some say Cold Blood rogues are not supposed to use Hemo. I'd like to kill players very fast or be able to escape successfully if someone gank me. Also i should go full +agi gear? And daggers?

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I'm probably not the best advisor since both my rogues got outdated - the first one at lvl31 by Nostalrius shutdown and the second by old Elysium shutdown at 40+

And because I was leveling em in dungeons, pvping only at battlegrounds or when attacked on my way between those and capitals.

But I don't see any contenders, so. They might as well come and say "that guy is an idiot don't listen to him" later =)

Builds work the best when you develop one for your own playstyle, but I guess as a beginner you don't have one yet and thus in need of something to start building from.

I did a lot of pvp on my first rogue semi-twinking. Farmed Revered with Arathi and was almost Exalted with Warsong all at level 29. But I was a combat-assassin.

I tried playing with daggers - and it was fun and all. I even had macros to switch between my sword and a dagger for ambushes and backstabs just in case.

Honestly though I have two big problems with daggers. First one is the need to find a back to stab - with lags and combat dancing when deadly spells are flying all around I personally don't want to be concerned with that particular thing on top of everything else.

My second problem with daggers is that... Well, ambush+backstab is the most destructive rogue combo - no doubt about it. And It is even more effective when you have appropriate talents.

But what people tend to miss looking at those big crits is the sheer energy cost - after ambush+backstab you're left with basically 0 energy and can not do anything but autoattack the enemy with that toothpick of yours until your energy regenerates.

Meaning you can't crowd control. And cc is the main thing in pvp. You don't have energy to kick mage's polymorph? Congrats - you're a sheep and the mage will spend those +15s to eat. You start from the beginning, but you just wasted 15s as well as your crucial stealth element.

Sinister strikes eat less energy per use (if I remember correctly 45 vs backstab's 60 and with combat talents it's 40 vs 60 - 1.5 times less energy) giving you more flexibility with finishers and cc/saving abilities. Assassination tree gives you even more flexibility with free combo points and stuff and in combat tree there are improved sprint to get rid of slowing and immobilizing effects along with a talent for sprint & evasion cooldown reduction. I'd also go for mace spec for free autoattack stuns.

But it's just me - I'd advise you to try both styles and figure it out for yourself in any case.

As to saving yourself and gear stats. If you really - REALLY - don't mind slower leveling... Put your time into getting gnomish engineering and make sure to always have a stack of healing potions with you. Farm dungeons and get as good of a gear as you can.

Sure - get agility. It's your main stat. I'd just say don't maniacally sacrifice everything for it. Make sure to have some decent stamina bonuses even at the price of loosing some agility here and there.

And - last but not least - don't be afraid to experiment. There's alyways room for improvement. Both for a character and for a player ;)

Here I can demonstrate some dagger fun - just a tongue-in-cheek "tribute" to all those vanilla rogue movies. In case if you're actually gonna watch it, pay attention to the sword parts ;D

 

 

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9 hours ago, Motorbreath said:

Builds work the best when you develop one for your own playstyle, but I guess as a beginner you don't have one yet and thus in need of something to start building from.

Yeah, rogue seems super complicated for me to understand all that stuff with weapon type and talents. No matter how long i look on his talent trees i have still no idea how a sword or dagger build should look like :D What's the difference between sword and dagger rogue? How different is their playstyle and talent choice? 

If i understand correctly, we pick daggers only for backstab+ambush crit burst? And for anything other swords are always better because they are slower which means higher dmg? And it means higher hits with SS/Hemo?

 

9 hours ago, Motorbreath said:

But what people tend to miss looking at those big crits is the sheer energy cost - after ambush+backstab you're left with basically 0 energy and can not do anything but autoattack the enemy with that toothpick of yours until your energy regenerates.

Meaning you can't crowd control. And cc is the main thing in pvp. You don't have energy to kick mage's polymorph? Congrats - you're a sheep and the mage will spend those +15s to eat. You start from the beginning, but you just wasted 15s as well as your crucial stealth element.

Oh man, this sounds really bad. Dagger build looks like a lot of fun but this can be a pain in the ass i agree.

How would a sword pvp build look like then? Go for cheapshot+kidney every time? And hemo instead of ss? And it would be more energy efficient so that you would be able to kick or cc unlike a dagger rogue?

 

Edited by desolace1

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It's pretty simple actually. Abilities take into consideration main hand weapon damage.

Ambush and backstab require you to be behind the target, use a dagger in main hand, they eat more energy, but have additional damage to make it kind of equal to sinister strikes.

Sinisters allow you to use slower weapons (swords-maces) with higher basic damage. But this can differ depending on what weapons you have of course.

Some pixels are well worth speccing for if you've managed to get your hands on them.

I'd say dagger rogues rely more on their energy based special attacks, while combat rogues cause more damage with their autoattacks and are less restricted with their arsenal. Like in my video you can notice me using slice and dice right after a couple of sinisters and just barrage the enemy with my strikes afterwards.

Dagger is more of a sneak up on a target and kill it fast if everything goes as planned. Combat allows almost warrior-like playstyle - somebody is still standing and you're out of stealth? Just turn his direction, get in his face and slice him to pieces as well. Or die trying ;D

And while you're doing that don't get hasty with spending all your energy on sinisters - keep it for kick (& gouge in case if you miss) and pay careful attention to what your opponent is doing so you could immediately counter it.

I'd go for something like that. That's actually a pretty good PvE spec as well. http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fMe0oxZG0EdbVt0co

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Nice, that's the explanation i needed :)

Also i have one more question because i have seen a rogue playing with hemo and probably swords and he was always doing cheap shot -> kidney shot combo to stunlock and kill as fast as possible. He was killing players even during kidney or was resetting and doing it again to keep his target stunned all the time. What build it could be? And can something like that be viable during leveling or maybe it requires special gear etc?

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Honestly I don't know a thing about hemo except that there were rogues called hemobots back at Valkyrie-WoW.

Cheap + Kidney is actually a very intuitive thing to do. Rogues are fragile, so you want every bit of cc you have.

Honestly, it could be anything. Most likely an "overgear spec" ;) Both assassination and subtlety talent trees give you free energy and increased combo point generation, plus there is the ice thistle tea - a potion instantly restoring you 100 energy.

Viable... I mean you get cheap shot around level 26 and kidney at level 30. Plus hemo is pretty deep inside subt tree.

I mean you can do that, but how well will it work depends on your setup and on the opponents you will choose to fight.

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I made some additional research + your suggestions and that's the results from what i tried to build. Ofc all of them would be for leveling.

Sword faster leveling pve: https://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fMe0oxZG0EdbVzxco (i'd like Improved Eviscerated here but i don't see anything i could take 3 points out from. It's pretty much the same build as yours but i decided swords would be easier to find while leveling than maces and i think i prefer extra attack over stun)
Sword world pvp oriented: https://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fhebkxzZhZxMe0chRR (maybe Remorseless instead of Expo Armor and Deadliness?)
Dagger world pvp oriented: https://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fGeooxzZGcZVMecc0o

Can you see something wrong, any mistakes or do they even have any sense at all? I noticed people skip Ghostly Strike and improved SS but i dunno why. For sword it's obvious because we use hemo instead. Also as a dagger rogue you should use backstab instead of SS but it won't be always possible to find the back i guess so i'd take improved SS anyway. And how about Ghostly Strike because it looks like a nice skill, so why people skip it both in dagger and sword builds?

Edited by desolace1

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Again - I can't tell you anything about subtlety tree. You're on your own there.

Swords are more of a pve choise for maximizing damage output. If you stun your enemy for 3s imagine how much damage you can do to him meanwhile. Also even twice diminished mace stun that will last only 0.75s will break enemy casts. Mages will sometimes panic and blink out of it leaving you kidney and combo points to use it when you get to them.

In my combat-assassin build you're intended to get assassination talents first, then go up to the top of combat tree and only then take improved parrying and riposte. This way you get your mace specialization pretty late and can use whatever you're able to get while leveling. Finding some semi-decent maces is not really a problem around level 50.

As a dagger rogue you don't want to waste your energy on sinisters. It's literally better to use gouge, go around incapacitated enemy, regenerate some energy while it lasts and then give him a couple backstabs instead. Or even use that gouge to restealth and cheap shot/ambush again.

One last thing I forgot to say. One of the reasons I was opening with cheap shot 90% of the time is the need to apply your slowing poison which I recommend using on both weapons for increased chance. Even while leveling out in the open world. You really don't want to fight a non-restrained opponent.

Seriously - builds are not that important. Rogues are pretty forgiving. What you should really care about is getting gear and consumables.

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