Same faction griefing

[Pottu 290]

Please remember that our rules state that:

Intentionally interrupting or negatively influencing a raid group that is currently engaged in ANY world boss encounter on the PvE realm with either faction characters - unless opposite faction and pvp flagged;

We understand that competition over world bosses is harsh. Breaking our rules is not allowed, regardless. Players have been suspended for violating this rule.

[Enwyn 0]

The rules are to vague at the moment and with multiple guilds camping the spawn it is just a lottery of who you will suspend next.

Can you be more specific and add some examples of what is and is not allowed without PVP enabled?

And some examples of how someone would fairly contest the boss with PVP on.

 

As it is now your rules seem petty and your uninformative banhammer is just putting people off competing fairly for world bosses.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Enwyn

[Auiel 0]

What really gets to me is the aggressiveness of the bans. People will accidentally break your ToS, it simply just happens, and they rarely mean anything by it. I would happen to know some of the people that got suspended this time, and I can show you discord chat after Azuregos where they're surprised that the ToS stated such rules.

Same discord chat shows that efforts were made in guild to make sure that noone would ever do such a thing again, as that is not what the guild is about and it was completely by accident. The breaches of ToS stopped immediately after the individuals were made aware of the rules, and the talks took place way before you even lifted your hammer.

This is also stuff that you would know, if you didn't blindly smash the hammer without contacting the offender, and hearing their side. You're not dealing out justice, you're just performing knee-jerk reactions to something as simple as an accidental breach of the ToS. If anything, the people you suspended are upstanding members of the community, as opposed to hundreds of other players that constantly challenge the ToS with their behaviour.

Our guild prides itself with being a toxic-free environment that follows the rules and cooperates with any guild that wishes it. For us, the community comes first and we would never allow people that would intentionally breach the ToS or not represent the guild in an acceptable social manner.

Would it honestly hurt to just have a chat with them for two minutes and ask them: "Why?"

If I put on my tin-foil hat, I would find it even more convenient that the suspension is lifted post-Sunday raid time, and post-Azuregos respawn. This has the reek of a targeted ban all over it.

The poor judgement displayed and the lack of information from your ToS on the specifics of griefing (look at Enwyn's post above this for how you could improve upon that), will keep any proper attempts at world boss challenge from happening, since noone is willing to risk the wrath of GMs, because they accidentally stepped over a rule during a heated moment with hundreds of people trying to get a boss kill. 

Banning like you did today only results in paranoia, where people refuse to play the accounts they're raiding on outside raids, because what if, by happenstance, one of their actions falls under your extremely vague definitions of griefing or breach of ToS:

"Elysium Staff reserve the right to take action on accounts for ANY reason, even if not covered in these rules. These rules may also be updated without notice at any time."

There is absolutely no way for us to always make sure that we're following your ToS with this taken into account, other than not play the game at all. One of your GM's could suddenly decide that cosplaying in Ironforge is a bannable offence, and ban fifty people without any reason given.

You guys are doing amazing works on so many fronts in this project, but sometimes you show complete lack of judgement, and really need to adapt a more casual approach to situations like these.

As a last note, I would like to add how petty it is to report people for minor breaches like these. Your first course of action should be to inform the counterpart of their breach, and if they don't stop, you report. The players in question stopped immediately after, with one unable to do so, as he was frozen in place and Azuregos felt like having a frozen meal for whatever reason. One thing is to have a rivalry going where you toss some banter after each other on discord, aiming to get people banned for bloody pixels is another thing entirely, and completely unbefitting mature behavior.    

[Ganglius 0]

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What really gets to me is the aggressiveness of the bans. People will accidentally break your ToS, it simply just happens, and they rarely mean anything by it. I would happen to know some of the people that got suspended this time, and I can show you discord chat after Azuregos where they're surprised that the ToS stated such rules.

It is expected that everyone logging into this game reads the ToU. If you didn't, ignorance is no excuse in law, never has been, most likely never will be, deal with it.

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Our guild prides itself with being a toxic-free environment that follows the rules and cooperates with any guild that wishes it. For us, the community comes first and we would never allow people that would intentionally breach the ToS or not represent the guild in an acceptable social manner.

How can you be sure you are following the rules when you obviously didn't even bother to read them. Your post baffles my mind. So much bias.

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Would it honestly hurt to just have a chat with them for two minutes and ask them: "Why?"

I suppose there was no need to ask any questions, there has been sufficent evidence provided to prove people violated the rules. And again: ignorance is no excuse in law, so what's the point? Only to have people deny facts and cry about this "injustice"? You can always appeal bans also.

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The poor judgement displayed and the lack of information from your ToS on the specifics of griefing (look at Enwyn's post above this for how you could improve upon that), will keep any proper attempts at world boss challenge from happening, since noone is willing to risk the wrath of GMs, because they accidentally stepped over a rule during a heated moment with hundreds of people trying to get a boss kill. 

This just shows that you most likely have never been at worldbosses before the update of the ToU. People griefed each others for hours and it sucked. Rules are actually pretty simple: First come, first served, so don't interfere by any means when you don't have the tag. You guys were actually the first ones who broke the new rule, congratz, serverfirst in at least something.

Also stop with this "accidently" bullshit and trying to make the indivduals sanctioned look innocent, they tried SEVERAL times to reset the boss or fuck it up and there is concrete evidence for that. Also one of the persons involved had already a bad reputation, at least at CM.

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Banning like you did today only results in paranoia, where people refuse to play the accounts they're raiding on outside raids, because what if, by happenstance, one of their actions falls under your extremely vague definitions of griefing or breach of ToS:

"Elysium Staff reserve the right to take action on accounts for ANY reason, even if not covered in these rules. These rules may also be updated without notice at any time."

There is absolutely no way for us to always make sure that we're following your ToS with this taken into account, other than not play the game at all. One of your GM's could suddenly decide that cosplaying in Ironforge is a bannable offence, and ban fifty people without any reason given.

For real? Are you actually serious?

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The players in question stopped immediately after, with one unable to do so, as he was frozen in place and Azuregos felt like having a frozen meal for whatever reason. One thing is to have a rivalry going where you toss some banter after each other on discord, aiming to get people banned for bloody pixels is another thing entirely, and completely unbefitting mature behavior. 

Nope, they didn't stop until the end, at least one of them kept taunting until the very last percent, this is a fact, as concrete evidence has been provided, as mentioned above.

None of you guys ever apologized to CM, at least to my knowledge, talking about mature behaviour. One of you guys even invaded our TS and started trolling while we  were still fighting, very mature indeed. Also we don't want to get you banned, we want you to stop griefing.

Did you already try to see it from another point of view? I mean what if you actually got the tag and kill due to your griefing and you wouldn't get punished for doing so. You would have been excused since you didn't read the rules and also you didn't really mean it, it was just an "accident". Can't you relate how shitty this would feel for us, the ones  who read the rules and followed them? How would this be any just. Are you really bitching about rules being enforced yet also implicate at the same time that GM's act gratuitous?? Also if they didn't enforce this very particular rule we would just get back to  countless hours of griefing and believe me: nobody wants that. And again: the new rule worked out fine, everyone on this server but some individuals of your guild followed it.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Ganglius
minor wording, very tired

[Enwyn 0]

3 hours ago, Ganglius said:

It is expected that everyone logging into this game reads the ToU. If you didn't, ignorance is no excuse in law, never has been, most likely never will be, deal with it.

Did you already try to see it from another point of view? I mean what if you actually got the tag and kill due to your griefing and you wouldn't get punished for doing so. You would have been excused since you didn't read the rules

While i do agree on this part it like your entire post is just an attack of character and you are not contributing to the topic.

I have my own opinions of your evidence but let us try to stick to the topic instead of lashing out.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Enwyn

[Mitmoc 0]

I think it's pretty clear you are not objective here Auriel. As Ganglius already said, Ignorance is no excuse. Have you not noticed 50+ people standing around Azuregos not interfering because they didn't have the tag ? Not a single person in your Teamspeak has read the rules and told said individuals to stop it ? Because they didn't stop. It's a deserved temporary ban, live up to it and don't make the mistake a second time. Good day, see you at next the next worldboss, maybe you will get the tag first, and we can watch you from a distance!

[Daggerfall 0]

To clarify anything that individuals have said so far do not represent my stand on the topic. I for one am able to take my punishment with pride. I didn't know the rules as I engaged Azuregos and winged it and pay the price for it. I was informed of my offenses post mortem and I accept whatever comes with it.

[Duofilm 0]

5 hours ago, Daggerfall said:

To clarify anything that individuals have said so far do not represent my stand on the topic. I for one am able to take my punishment with pride. I didn't know the rules as I engaged Azuregos and winged it and pay the price for it. I was informed of my offenses post mortem and I accept whatever comes with it.

Well said! Much respect.

[Ganglius 0]

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While i do agree on this part it like your entire post is just an attack of character and you are not contributing to the topic.

In my opinion the only line being an "attack of charcater" is "You guys were actually the first ones who broke the new rule, congratz, serverfirst in at least something.". Other than that I mostly tried to correct things Auiel claimed or added additional info to it, how is that not contributing to the topic.

And common, what are you expecting? Getting touched with kid gloves after you are playing disgustingly innoncent, downplaying everything and just straight out write things that just arent true while also alleging GM's banning people for no reason?

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I have my own opinions of your evidence but let us try to stick to the topic instead of lashing out.

Did you even watch it? If you did and still think it's not sufficent I'd be really interested in what makes you feel this way.

 

 

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To clarify anything that individuals have said so far do not represent my stand on the topic. I for one am able to take my punishment with pride. I didn't know the rules as I engaged Azuregos and winged it and pay the price for it. I was informed of my offenses post mortem and I accept whatever comes with it.

Really appreciated Daggerfall!

That's how one should handle it: being honest about fucking up and paying the price. Not downplaying it, making wrong claims nor acting innocent.

 

See you guys at next worldboss spawn and hopefully things turn out better this time! :) 

[Daggerfall 0]

We will behave as for the server's best interest. Best of luck to you too in future endeavours :) .

[Trebert 0]

I agree with Daggerfall, At the time didn't know it was wrong (Like i wouldnt risk a ban if i had known, would have to be stupid to do so.) So in turn i made a mistake and got punished for it

Positives from this:

Atleast lessons can be learned so hopefully no one makes the same mistake as we did again, with it being out there and a bit more public i hope awareness has been raised :) Which is actually pretty much what i done soon as i found out (too late) i told people who i knew and such to get the word out there

[Pottu 290]

On 2/17/2017 at 10:10 PM, Enwyn said:

The rules are to vague at the moment and with multiple guilds camping the spawn it is just a lottery of who you will suspend next.

Can you be more specific and add some examples of what is and is not allowed without PVP enabled?

And some examples of how someone would fairly contest the boss with PVP on.

Usually what happens when we provide concrete examples is that some players pretend to be lawyers and try to figure out loop holes to exploit.

But players involved in this latest case taunted and kited Azuregos while another raid was fighting him. This is clearly stated to be griefing in our ToU.

If a Horde guild is fighting Azuregos, then an Alliance guild is free to flag for PvP and attack the Horde guild. They are not allowed to remain unflagged and kite/taunt Azuregos in order to reset him.

You either wait for your turn and hope that the raid currently fighting the boss wipes OR you turn PvP flag on and attack them. There is no inherent right that all guilds should have a chance to kill world bosses. First comes, first served.

And to those concerned that GMs are too ban happy - junior GMs cannot ban at all. Only senior GMs hand out suspensions. If there is any uncertainty of a case, they are instructed to ask for advice from the team leads and assistant team leads. Remember that you can always post a ban appeal on the forum. If you suspect a GM of foul play, you can send a PM to me and I'll sort it out. Or if you suspect me, send a PM to Hades and Nightmare.

[Enwyn 0]

3 hours ago, Pottu said:

If a Horde guild is fighting Azuregos, then an Alliance guild is free to flag for PvP and attack the Horde guild. They are not allowed to remain unflagged and kite/taunt Azuregos in order to reset him.

You either wait for your turn and hope that the raid currently fighting the boss wipes OR you turn PvP flag on and attack them.

Thank you Pottu, You gave me the answers i was looking for.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Enwyn
i started lawyering and remove it :p

[LeFrapper 0]

Before you read this please note that I will be stating my personal opinion on the matter while I hope this can serve as constructive criticism. It's really easy for people to get offended these days and that is not my intention here.

 

There are 2 things I will try to bring to light in my post.

1) Present the unjustified warning one of my guild members (Sapia) received yesterday because of your current world boss rules.

2) The flawed world boss rules and how they have affected the players so far

 

So yesterday approx 00.00 server time Azuregos was up and like other Guilds, my Guild (Limited Edition) went to contest for a possible tag. While we were waiting on the side for our raid to arrive, the Guild Vicarious was taking a shot on the boss. We gathered up, we started buffing and then we entered combat because the Vicarious raid had re positioned the boss and it came closer to our raid. This is just standard procedure there's always people accidentally in combat during that fight that are not in the participating raid.

So, while one of our Priests Sapia, buffed our raid with Fortitude, he had to heal the missing health from the players to top em up. That is the exact point we entered combat, because the boss was running loose at that point. Somehow, for some reason, once the majority of the Vicarious raid started dying Azuregos eventually started targeting our Priest (probably because of healing aggro). I want to note here that Vicarious was bringing extra people in from a 2nd raid into that fight that were not in their main raid who got the eventual tag.

Nonetheless we ask Sapia (our Priest) to move away from our raid because he might pull the boss towards us and kill a few of our raid members accidentally. And so he did. Loosing more people in the process and trying to keep the tag on a guaranteed wipe the new incoming Vicarious members could not keep the aggro on them so Azuregos started targeting Sapia more frequently. Eventually in the process he reset because the Vicarious raid was unable to taunt or build threat on Azuregos in one of his Teleports even though they had close to 80 members there.

Now you see, the ugly truth here is Sapia did nothing wrong. He received a warning from a GM for this action. Was he supposed to go in and die?  If so if you enter combat on Azuregos are you forced to assist the guild with the current tag? Is it a crime and a ban-able offense to move away from the boss so you avoid dying? Or is there anywhere any rule written that says players are required to stay at a particular radius away from Azuregos? Is it really a ban-able offense to accidentally enter combat? If so please go ahead and ban our whole guild. These are obviously rhetorical questions.

The nature of that boss and how it works does not allow players to follow your so called 'rules' . When putting those rules in place you have clearly not thought about each and every scenario and in the process you throw unjustified warnings and bans to active players in your server and an important part of this huge community. Again I'm not trying to attack or offend anyone here, but in my eyes these are things that make dedicated players loose faith in the management team of the server.

For instance, if a clueless Player runs through Azshara mining veins, and he stumbles upon an Azuregos attempt, enters combat and then keeps moving away to keep farming veins, and eventually Azuregos resets because of the current raids poor performance, is that a ban-able offense then? Cause with what you are doing right now you should throw that clueless player a final warning. Or did Sapia receive a warning simply because 20 people from Vicarious reported him for something he didn't do intentionally and the GM's succumbed to peer pressure?

 

What I'm going to mention next is under no circumstance an attack on some people, simply an observation. My intend is not to start a war here.

 

So reading this topic I mainly see arguments between Chocolate Milk and one of the Alliance Guilds, Lothar's Reign I think, correct me if I'm wrong. Now since the Alliance Guild was at fault breaking the rules on one of the previous Azuregos events it makes them look like their arguments are invalid. It feels more like a personal debate between guilds rather than an improvement to the current situation.

However there's the other side of the coin that is not clearly portrayed on this topic.  You are shutting down Auiel's post really hard, although his Guild is at fault, he has some very valid points which I'm sure the majority of the server is concerned about. Obviously the current state of your rules benefits Chocolate Milk the most as they have the more active and larger player base, thus allowing them to be really fast in assembling a raid for the world bosses.

Please understand that this is not meant to be an attack, but I'm trying to bring to light the fact that you guys are shutting down legitimate concerns from the other players of the server that are concerned over these new rules and they aren't speaking up about it. This topic is quite one sided and my intention here is to try to give an insight on the other side of things and the concerns most of the people have. So please don't try to shut people down, but try to make a healthy debate with the people opposed.

 

Moving on I will get to your so called 'rules' part.

 

There is something fundamentally wrong with the current rules for the world bosses. First and foremost as explained earlier the fact that your rules don't fit the nature and environment of this world boss. It's almost impossible to stay out of combat if you 1) wanna be in sight to see the current attempt of another guild 2) waiting for another Guild to wipe in order to rush in and get the tag. That's exactly what happened to us yesterday and one of our members received a warning without intentionally trying to grief. So my Guild goes to Azuregos with all the good intent to follow your rules, but you drop the hammer on one of my members nonetheless, just because the nature of the game didn't really allow us to follow your rules. Every few Azuregos events you warn and ban some new players. When is it finally enough to see that there is something wrong with that approach?

Next up is an example that happened to us a few weeks ago. One of the first times your rules were active we (Limited Edition) and Chocolate Milk had a conjoint Azuregos raid. I'm not ashamed to say we manged to technically wipe even though nobody was there for the start of the fight to contest us. However some of our members in the raid (maybe like 5-6ppl) stayed alive and since they knew how the fight works, they managed to stay out of teleport range and kite Azuregos around the mountain without resetting their threat on the boss. Eventually some other FULL raids arrived ready to capitalize on our 'almost' wipe but that's not what really happened. What happened is our whole raid corpse ran, ressed up and moved to a safe spot where we were OUT OF COMBAT and we waited the FULL duration of our debuff to run out. We buffed up we rested up (while keeping our tag secure, tho we had technically wiped) and then we went on to proceed with our fight from where Azuregos was left of at 25% approx while NOONE COULD TOUCH US. All the other Guilds were just sitting there not being able to believe what their eyes were witnessing without being able to do ANYTHING about it. In the future you will see once all Guilds know the fight really well noone is ever wiping on Azuregos anymore through smart usage of game mechanics. Is that really how it's supposed to be done? You won't let us use the game mechanics to our advantage to reset the boss from a possible contender, but we are allowed to use them to our advantage in order to keep our tag up forever? Good job.

Furthermore what is the purpose of a world boss really? A world boss is a fun event for a lot of people as they fight for their 'glorious' goal. It's part of the game we enjoyed so many years ago when numerous players and guilds fought hours for it. But the reality is that we actually 'fought' for it, which is one of the fun factors of the whole event, we had to team up with other Guilds and Players to manage to get a chance on his loots etc. That is true blizzlike. If you want people to just be done with it so everyone can get their loot (so they stop whining about it), then why don't you change stuff like Alterac Valley's current form as well? Your rules are currently killing the whole fun and purpose of the Azuregos event.

 

Finally about this last bit.
 

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If a Horde guild is fighting Azuregos, then an Alliance guild is free to flag for PvP and attack the Horde guild. They are not allowed to remain unflagged and kite/taunt Azuregos in order to reset him.

 

So recently I had one of my other members get banned for 12 hours cause he ran into an AOE of an Alliance player in Un'goro and apparently that is against your server rules. Being smart isn't allowed here apparently. But you are telling me that as a Horde Warrior I could flag myself for PvP -> run into an Alliance Azuregos attempt -> Taunt the boss -> get hit by a couple of multishots or demo shouts in the process -> tag half the alliance raid for PvP -> go wipe them with my Guild in the process and everything would be allright? So you have rules for specific scenarios? But the scenario where we accidentally get into combat is not one of them but rather this one?

 

Closing off, please excuse me in advance if my post sounds angry or offensive, I can assure you this is not my intention. I am simply upset and very confused about these new rules and how they benefit the server community. I am simply one of the many players that feels that this approach is not the right one and hope for a new approach in the future and this is all I'm really trying to achieve. Achieve justice for my members ban and give you some examples of how your rules worked out so far, so you can rethink about it.

Here is also a link to the Azuregos VOD from last night clearly showing how we were sitting Idle on the side waiting for our chance to go for a tag. Please watch the video and correct me if you feel anything I said is not correct:

 

See you in game soon,

Regards,

Frapper

[Roxy 8]

3 hours ago, LeFrapper said:

What I'm going to mention next is under no circumstance an attack on some people, simply an observation. My intend is not to start a war here.

 

So reading this topic I mainly see arguments between Chocolate Milk and one of the Alliance Guilds, Lothar's Reign I think, correct me if I'm wrong. Now since the Alliance Guild was at fault breaking the rules on one of the previous Azuregos events it makes them look like their arguments are invalid. It feels more like a personal debate between guilds rather than an improvement to the current situation.

Just some personal debate between induviduals, not guilds.

None of the involved people are arguing about fault here, the ones who got punished know and understands why they got their temp ban, the point we were arguing is the rules being slightly vague, we got some clarifications, but as Pottu said, they can't make any concrete examples due to people will find ways to work around it, and that is understandable.

Although, some spesific situations needs to be adressed to avoid more unnecessary bans and warnings

And you do bring some very good points in your post, and something that really needs to be adressed is that situation that you mentioned when you kited Azuregos during the 15 minutes for the debuff to expire, something that make other people unable to get a try when you wipe.

When kiting to reset the boss to get the tag is a punishable offense, so should kiting the boss to avoid losing the tag on a wipe as well.

That is something i would advise you to not do until we get some clarification on the spesific situation, cause that will be reported by us if we see it, and it's up to you if you want to gamble temp bans.

As for your guild member getting a warning for buffing and healing agro, that must be a GM that felt pressured by the amount of reports, and he should post an appeal to get the warning removed.  Cause if what you say is true, getting healing agro is really not a healers fault, since any dps or tank doing anything to the boss should do more threat than a healer

[Summer 26]

2 hours ago, Roxy said:

As for your guild member getting a warning for buffing and healing agro, that must be a GM that felt pressured by the amount of reports, and he should post an appeal to get the warning removed.  Cause if what you say is true, getting healing agro is really not a healers fault, since any dps or tank doing anything to the boss should do more threat than a healer

This. I had aggro as well and was just lucky that Sapia did some more healing than me - else I would have received the warning. We tried to run away from the boss multiple times to get out of combat again - but it just wasn't possible.

As a sidenote, Sapia's (an my) aggro did not reset because he was outside of the range of Azuregos' teleport mechanic.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Summer