Blackcrow or Flawless Arcanite Rifle?

[Proto 1]

Between the two, not as a dwarf or troll, which is better dps? Does getting gun skill to 304 give more hit chance than the 1% on blackcrow?

Asking as a hunter on elysium, no Rhokdelar for a while for us.

 

Edit: nm found the hit chance formula on here. Looks like the rifle brings your miss chance vs bosses to 7.4... though wearing marksmans bands with the rifle would take your miss chance down to 5.9?

Edited March 31, 2017 by Proto

[Poly 1]

You only really benefit from the gun skill if its 305 (so the difference between bosses - which are level 63+ and have a defense of 315 - and you is at 10). This is the value for which the gun skill would provide 3 % hit. However, using Marksmans Bands or other mediocre items to get to that number isn't worth it, especially if you consider that the Rifle itself has an suboptimal attackspeed too - using it would delay your rotation (Aimed Shot cast would be longer than the times between two attacks - this is what hunters usually call "clipping").

So all in all, go with Blackcrow, it's the overall better choice.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Poly

[Mavell 0]

4 weapon skill gives you 1.6% hit, and if you have marksman bracer which add another 2 skill, you will have 3.1% hit. I prefer the rifle, attack speed doesnt really matter much as it only affect auto-shot. 

[Raziya 11]

5 hours ago, Mavell said:

4 weapon skill gives you 1.6% hit, and if you have marksman bracer which add another 2 skill, you will have 3.1% hit. I prefer the rifle, attack speed doesnt really matter much as it only affect auto-shot. 

Attack speed matters a lot. Auto Shot will likely deal the majority of your damage, so it's really a good idea to take anything that affects it into account.

7 hours ago, Poly said:

You only really benefit from the gun skill if its 305 (so the difference between bosses - which are level 63+ and have a defense of 315 - and you is at 10). This is the value for which the gun skill would provide 3 % hit. However, using Marksmans Bands or other mediocre items to get to that number isn't worth it, especially if you consider that the Rifle itself has an suboptimal attackspeed too - using it would delay your rotation (Aimed Shot cast would be longer than the times between two attacks - this is what hunters usually call "clipping").

So all in all, go with Blackcrow, it's the overall better choice.

Aye.

Weapon speed actually accounts for both the cooldown of Auto Shot and the charge-up time. Take Ashjre'thul for example, the slowest ranged weapon. With a weapon speed of 3.4, your Auto Shot can cool down over 2.9 seconds, and hypothetically speaking if you started your Aimed Shot at the exact moment your Auto fired, it would be 0.1 seconds before your Auto Shot could start charging up again, and that's the best you're gonna get.

Blackcrow has a slower attack speed, superior minimum damage, and more useful stats for pre-raid BiS. Go with Blackcrow over the rifle.

[Xylon666Darkstar 4]

Dwarven Hand Cannon.

[antwan 0]

Quote wasn't working properly, user error! Please see post below. My apologies

[antwan 0]

On 4/1/2017 at 3:10 AM, Raziya said:

Attack speed matters a lot. Auto Shot will likely deal the majority of your damage, so it's really a good idea to take anything that affects it into account.

Aye.

Weapon speed actually accounts for both the cooldown of Auto Shot and the charge-up time. Take Ashjre'thul for example, the slowest ranged weapon. With a weapon speed of 3.4, your Auto Shot can cool down over 2.9 seconds, and hypothetically speaking if you started your Aimed Shot at the exact moment your Auto fired, it would be 0.1 seconds before your Auto Shot could start charging up again, and that's the best you're gonna get.

Blackcrow has a slower attack speed, superior minimum damage, and more useful stats for pre-raid BiS. Go with Blackcrow over the rifle.

I've seen your posts before and would love more insight into this, I was under the impression clipping was disregarding allowing autoshots to go off if your aimed shot or MS is off cooldown, so essentially you spam your skills on CD, am I wrong in this regard?

 

With this in mind, and in regards to arcanite rifle, as a dwarf, (pre rhok), with marksman this gives +11, which is my math is correct, means you only need to come up with 5.4% hit from gear. ( 5 - (-4 * 0.1) = 5.4 )

 I've compared these two extensively, and basically, I can get 1170 AP self buffed(arcanite rifle), vs 1084 (black crow), as well as 20.44% chance to crit (rifle) vs 19.44 (black crow).  With that much of a difference, and taking into consideration improved aspect of the hawk, wouldn't arcanite yield better results?

 

With improved aspect of hawk proc, blackcrow could squeeze out 2 additional auto's (3.2 x .30 = 0.96; 3.2 - 0.96 = 2.24; 12 / 2.24 ( 5.35 auto's squeezed out during an IATOH proc; disregarding skills obviously), whereas arcanite rifle would yield similar results 3.0 x .30 = .9; 3.0-.9 = 2.1; 12 / 2.1 ( 5.71 auto's squeezed out).  Keep in mind, I believe IATOH also affects skills.  I also understand that the quiver, and things of that nature is going to bring your real auto attack speed down anyways, so these numbers are kind of moot.

 

I guess it just comes down to my understanding of clipping.  With the arcanite rifle I would assume you would spam your skills on cooldown, whereas with blackcrow you would allow the autos to go off before using your cooldowns, am I incorrect?

 

If that's the case, you would miss at least one auto from when you go from aimed -> MS; however wouldn't you get that back during the cooldown period?

 

I've run alot of scenarios and I'm having a hard time finding the optimum setup.  I'm trying to utilize IAOTH as I think the DPS loss without it is rather huge, and it's quite hard to get the hit with blackcrow unless you sacrifice barb blade for warmonger.

 

Anyways, appreciate any response you can provide

 

[Raziya 11]

41 minutes ago, antwan said:

stuff

That's very thoroughly thought out!

Now, I haven't had time to confirm much about the dwarf racial, though I'm workin' on it, and my guild is considering it as well because if a dwarf can use Larvae of the Great Worm with Sniper Scope instead of Accurascope, that could justify its use, or at least its priority for dwarf hunters over night elf hunters. If you are correct and it does indeed reduce the hit chance by that much, maybe you could use some better pre-raid BiS pieces with superior damage-boosting stats and make it work better than Blackcrow. I mean, that's a LOT of attack power you say you'd be missing. I suppose the only way to find out is to test. :) But, of course, you said you'd be swapping out Barbarous Blade for Warmonger...

You don't need a Warmonger to get 9% hit for pre-raid BiS. It's good to have in case you ever lack the hit needed to tranq shot proper, but the attack power from weapons is really important. You can get hit in plenty of other ways - two Tarnished Elven Rings are great, Truestrike Shoulders, while not the best shoulders you can find, will provide another 2% hit... it sounds to me like if you found more alternatives for hit, you could further reduce the appeal of FAR.

BC is indeed a full auto weapon, whereas FAR is clipped auto. FAR is ranked 15 on the damage cycles thread, here:
https://forum.elysium-project.org/topic/31461-hunter-damage-cycles-breakdown-ej-repost/

And... hang on, you said you have a Barbarous Blade, right? Isn't AV out on your server? 'Cause Bloodseeker would be pre-raid BiS in that case...

Pardon me if I'm asking more questions than I'm answering. I'm trying to take everything you've said and everything I've heard lately into consideration, and think of alternatives. What I would recommend is having another look at other equipment than melee weapon for achieving 9% hit, and testing the damage of FAR vs BC with this alternative equipment. In addition, you'll definitely be using weapons other than guns as you pick up Rhok'delar and Ashjre'thul, so it would be a worthwhile investment to figure out the hit you can have now and what hit you expect to have with some tier.

I'm still trying to figure this out, myself. So, hopefully what I've said helps at least a little. :p

 

[antwan 0]

1 hour ago, Raziya said:

That's very thoroughly thought out!

Now, I haven't had time to confirm much about the dwarf racial, though I'm workin' on it, and my guild is considering it as well because if a dwarf can use Larvae of the Great Worm with Sniper Scope instead of Accurascope, that could justify its use, or at least its priority for dwarf hunters over night elf hunters. If you are correct and it does indeed reduce the hit chance by that much, maybe you could use some better pre-raid BiS pieces with superior damage-boosting stats and make it work better than Blackcrow. I mean, that's a LOT of attack power you say you'd be missing. I suppose the only way to find out is to test. :) But, of course, you said you'd be swapping out Barbarous Blade for Warmonger...

You don't need a Warmonger to get 9% hit for pre-raid BiS. It's good to have in case you ever lack the hit needed to tranq shot proper, but the attack power from weapons is really important. You can get hit in plenty of other ways - two Tarnished Elven Rings are great, Truestrike Shoulders, while not the best shoulders you can find, will provide another 2% hit... it sounds to me like if you found more alternatives for hit, you could further reduce the appeal of FAR.

BC is indeed a full auto weapon, whereas FAR is clipped auto. FAR is ranked 15 on the damage cycles thread, here:
https://forum.elysium-project.org/topic/31461-hunter-damage-cycles-breakdown-ej-repost/

And... hang on, you said you have a Barbarous Blade, right? Isn't AV out on your server? 'Cause Bloodseeker would be pre-raid BiS in that case...

Pardon me if I'm asking more questions than I'm answering. I'm trying to take everything you've said and everything I've heard lately into consideration, and think of alternatives. What I would recommend is having another look at other equipment than melee weapon for achieving 9% hit, and testing the damage of FAR vs BC with this alternative equipment. In addition, you'll definitely be using weapons other than guns as you pick up Rhok'delar and Ashjre'thul, so it would be a worthwhile investment to figure out the hit you can have now and what hit you expect to have with some tier.

I'm still trying to figure this out, myself. So, hopefully what I've said helps at least a little. :p

 

Thanks for the quick response, I am on Elysium, so we are pre-av patch still.  Barborous blade came out from DM about 2 weeks ago.

 

So yea, I'll link you to my char to give you an idea of my gear: https://legacy-logs.com/Vanilla/Armory/Elysium/Dunkedon/0

 

For my 9% hit (without surefooted) I'll list my gear out for BlackCrow:

1% from t1 shoulders, 1% BC, 3% warmonger, 2% devilsaur, 1% tarnished elven ring, and +2 from marksman bands (.8% hit from 302 wep skill), leaves me with 8% hit, and a hit cap of 8.2%; .2% chance to miss.  With this setup I have roughly 1084 AP, and 19.44% crit self buffed (not at home but numbers are very close)

I've also run with surefooted to keep the barb blade, however if you do some math on IATOH procs, (the lowest auto's i fired on a fight was 19), if you do some math you'll find you have a 62% chance of it proccing, which as I mentioned earlier, gives you 2 additional auto's within that 12 second period, so to me, getting the 5% IAOTH is a must.  So depending on how much you put into surefooted determines how many points into IAOTH.

 

In regards to the arcanite rifle, I've run with surefooted and stacked crit, getting up to 21.44% unbuffed, and around 1100 AP.

The setup I am looking to run on my next raid will be the following:

Marksman bands +2; dwarf racial +5, arc rifle +4; giving me 11 wep skill and equating to a 5.4% hit cap.  I then would run with 2 tarnished elven rings, 2% from devilsaur, and 1% from shoulders (will accept a .4% miss chance)

My AP will be roughly 1186 self buffed in this spec, with 20.44% crit, with 5 points in IAOTH.

 

In regards to post AV, yea, it'll all change, I'll be in line to get rhok quickly, and also I'll be sure to grab AV bow / don julio's, quiver, plus with change to tier pieces 2% hit from t1 gloves (already have) and 1% from t2 legs (already have).  Short of getting accuria I'll be going back into surefooted, but in the meantime while I have an opportunity to use the gun, I'm trying to take advantage of it.

 

Thanks for the conversation either way, always fun to theorycraft

 

 

 

[Raziya 11]

2 minutes ago, antwan said:

stuff

Thanks for the conversation either way, always fun to theorycraft

Sure thing! It's great to have a good conversation about hunter stuff. I love theorycrafting.

I look forward to the results of your testing with FAR with great curiosity! You will be testing it as you have planned, won't you?

[antwan 0]

Yea, I will test it, but I guess I'll have to clip, I just can't wrap my head around clipping while using IAOTH, or the math behind but since it affects skills too I guess it evens out.

So just to verify, because I'm still slightly confused, to effectively clip I just spam aimed shot or multi shot whenever the cool down is up right?

 

Another interesting thing, which noone seems to have looked into yet, is how does weapon skill affect crit rating?  According to this: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Weapon_skill

a Blizz GM uses +4 skill as an example, he states that your hit chance will be .8% and your crit chance will be .8% as well.  Essentially saying the same formula that determines hit also applies to crit.  So if +11 is giving you 3.6% hit, according to that information (not confirmed if working same on server) it should also give you 3.6% crit

 

Be interesting to see if anyone can find it within the source code

[Raziya 11]

Err, Multi has a .5 second cast time. Should use it between Auto Shots, preferably when it won't bother the charge-up time. Aimed Shot, yeah, just clip your Auto Shot by using it off cooldown. You shouldn't need to clip too much each cycle...

Never heard about that crit thing. I've been working with a dwarf hunter in my guild to determine the benefits of the dwarf racial, and what I expected is that it gives hit, but is not as effective a racial as, say, the human swords racial for a rogue or warrior because we hunters don't need to deal with glancing blows. Haven't really looked into it enough yet to have any conclusions for you about weapon skill.

[ka.ba 0]

1 weapon skill gives 0,04% crit in PvE so +4 weapon skill will give you 0,16% crit.

 

For hit it's a bit more complicated as you are aware. Below is the amount of hit you get from different weapon skill levels.

300 = 0%
301 = 0,4%
302 = 0,8%
303 = 1,2%
304 = 1,6%
305 = 3%
306 = 3,1%
307 = 3,2%
308 = 3,3%
309 = 3,4%
310 = 3,5%
311 = 3,6%
312 = 3,7%
313 = 3,8%
314 = 3,9%
315 = 4%

 

Sources:

Weapon skill to crit code

Weapon skill to hit code