Video Evidence of Multiple Judgements ranks Stacking

[gamemechanic 0]

7 minutes ago, Whitewolf said:

It seems pretty common knowledge based on just this thread alone that the mechanic existed prior to 1.8. It would be foolish to deviate from what is known without proper evidence to back up that all three judgements were changed. Evidence before change right? As was previously mentioned on these forums, the goal is not to be fair but be vanilla like. If blizzard left reckoning stacks the way they were originally, this server would have to honor that decision no matter how OP and broken that would be because it would have been vanilla.

So without proper evidence that they didn't stack is it logical to deviate from a known originality?

Yes, its quite logical. A little copy/paste from the github discussion:

"When you are suggesting that a single debuff in a whole category of debuffs behaves differently than anything else in the game that has ranks and is not a DoT (sunders, curses etc) the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence that multiple ranks of the same debuff stack."

[killerduki 54]

2 hours ago, gamemechanic said:

http://paladinsucks.blogspot.dk/2005/12/super-mana-regen-is-back.html

 

This one post patch 1.8. But both the post and the 4 comments clearly indicates that this a bug and definitly not a mechanic that is working as intended.

I'm still waiting for proof that the mechanic was working and intended in late vanilla. Every claim so far has been easily refutable.

The comments post 1.8 indicate that was working even after 1.8 , which mean all the way around until late tbc, and videos + patch notes from TBC confirms that.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[killerduki 54]

46 minutes ago, gamemechanic said:

Yes, its quite logical. A little copy/paste from the github discussion:

"When you are suggesting that a single debuff in a whole category of debuffs behaves differently than anything else in the game that has ranks and is not a DoT (sunders, curses etc) the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence that multiple ranks of the same debuff stack."

You say like Mangos is perfectly scripted and working in exact manner like Original Game?

I am sorry , but Mangos have so much problems like Consecration Attack Power etc , it is how the core is scripted.

If you base according to the Client or Mangos , then this end up like Holy Resistance ,where it was server side scripted .

/Kind regards Killerduki

[gamemechanic 0]

12 minutes ago, killerduki said:

The comments post 1.8 indicate that was working even after 1.8 , which mean all the way around until late tbc, and videos + patch notes from TBC confirms that.

/Kind regards Killerduki

This comments indicate some multiprocs where happening and it was not working as intended. Right?

It also doesn't mention debuff stacking. Right?

[killerduki 54]

1 minute ago, gamemechanic said:

This comments indicate some multiprocs where happening and it was not working as intended. Right?

It also doesn't mention debuff stacking. Right?

http://paladinsucks.blogspot.mk/2005/12/super-mana-regen-is-back.html

11 December, 2005

Basically you've got so many procs going off, with each one having a chance to trigger Judgement of Wisdom, that on average you'll see 2 JoW procs per swing (that's +118 mana per swing). It's sick. When you see JoW proc 4 times off a single hit (not uncommon), you'll laugh at how rediculous this is.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[gamemechanic 0]

2 minutes ago, killerduki said:

You say like Mangos is perfectly scripted and working in exact manner like Original Game?

I am sorry , but Mangos have so much problems like Consecration Attack Power etc , it is how the core is scripted.

If you base according to the Client or Mangos , then this end up like Holy Resistance ,where it was server side scripted .

/Kind regards Killerduki

I'm not discussing Mangos. I'm discussing basic WoW gamemechanics.

[killerduki 54]

2 minutes ago, gamemechanic said:

I'm not discussing Mangos. I'm discussing basic WoW gamemechanics.

You need to bring evidence if you discuss them.

You speak about Auras, when you say something about Auras, then you have to poke Mangos , which is completely broken and modified client.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[gamemechanic 0]

1 minute ago, killerduki said:

http://paladinsucks.blogspot.mk/2005/12/super-mana-regen-is-back.html

11 December, 2005

Basically you've got so many procs going off, with each one having a chance to trigger Judgement of Wisdom, that on average you'll see 2 JoW procs per swing (that's +118 mana per swing). It's sick. When you see JoW proc 4 times off a single hit (not uncommon), you'll laugh at how rediculous this is.

/Kind regards Killerduki

He is talking about weaponswings and procs triggering manaregen. Not stacking JoW debuffs.

[killerduki 54]

3 minutes ago, gamemechanic said:

He is talking about weaponswings and procs triggering manaregen. Not stacking JoW debuffs.

When you see JoW proc 4 times off a single hit (not uncommon), you'll laugh at how rediculous this is.

He indicate multiple ranks JoW via SoR .

/Kind regards Killerduki

[gamemechanic 0]

Just now, killerduki said:

When you see JoW proc 4 times off a single hit (not uncommon), you'll laugh at how rediculous this is.

He indicate multiple ranks JoW via SoR .

/Kind regards Killerduki

You said something about assumptions on discord. What was it? :)

[gamemechanic 0]

4 minutes ago, killerduki said:

You need to bring evidence if you discuss them.

You speak about Auras, when you say something about Auras, then you have to poke Mangos , which is completely broken and modified client.

/Kind regards Killerduki

Nope. I can discuss general Vanilla WoW mechanics, without mentioning the implementation in Mangos. Which btw isnt a client....

[killerduki 54]

3 minutes ago, gamemechanic said:

You said something about assumptions on discord. What was it? :)

2.1 Patch

Seal of Righteousness: This seal will no longer cause additional chances for weapon procs to trigger.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[killerduki 54]

6 minutes ago, gamemechanic said:

Nope. I can discuss general Vanilla WoW mechanics, without mentioning the implementation in Mangos. Which btw isnt a client....

But server side scripted , like Holy Resistance and Seal of Righteousness.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[gamemechanic 0]

1 minute ago, killerduki said:

2.1 Patch

Seal of Righteousness: This seal will no longer cause additional chances for weapon procs to trigger.

/Kind regards Killerduki

Which has nothing to do with debuf stacking.

[killerduki 54]

1 hour ago, gamemechanic said:

Which has nothing to do with debuf stacking.

 

This have.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[Thari 15]

Killerduki, the evidence of TBC you provide is not evidence of it being intended in vanilla wow.

 

I don't know if you did in fact play vanilla on retail back then, however I actually did, as a holy paladin.

I can confirm it worked, I can confirm it got removed.

 

I do not have proof besides my clear memory about it, but others have pointed it out for you already.

If it would have been a known strategy, my guild back then would have used it as we had a lot of trouble in Naxxramas and only cleared it on "farm" a very few months before TBC.

 

The others are correct too, that all horde players would start and would have started an enormous riot about this, since it would unfairly favor the alliance a lot.

 

You provide evidence of deebuff icons stacking, which they did until patch 2.4? given the patch notes.

The effects are not intended to stack, they probably never were.

[killerduki 54]

1 hour ago, Thari said:

Killerduki, the evidence of TBC you provide is not evidence of it being intended in vanilla wow.

 

I don't know if you did in fact play vanilla on retail back then, however I actually did, as a holy paladin.

I can confirm it worked, I can confirm it got removed.

 

I do not have proof besides my clear memory about it, but others have pointed it out for you already.

If it would have been a known strategy, my guild back then would have used it as we had a lot of trouble in Naxxramas and only cleared it on "farm" a very few months before TBC.

 

The others are correct too, that all horde players would start and would have started an enormous riot about this, since it would unfairly favor the alliance a lot.

 

You provide evidence of deebuff icons stacking, which they did until patch 2.4? given the patch notes.

The effects are not intended to stack, they probably never were.

Post 1.8 Patch removing was never Confirmed , neither fixed , it did exist all the way thru TBC and so on +++ ..

Evidence is clear :
 

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I don't know if you did in fact play vanilla on retail back then, however I actually did, as a holy paladin.

I can confirm it worked, I can confirm it got removed.

 

I did fucking played Vanilla even during early and late patches too , i was one of the first Paladin Tanks who did Maintank KT back in the days is the main reason of all the knowledge i got and the main reason why i fucking understand and digging all of  this info to prove in your face where you desperate trying to deny with excuses without evidence.

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#5 Oct 09 2005 at 2:50 AM Rating: Decent

Cathela

Multiple paladins can stack different ranks of the judgements on the same mob. The last time my raid group killed Ragnaros we didn't have enough priests to do AoE heals on the rogues, so the three paladins in the melee groups coordinated different ranks of Judgement of Light on him, and the rogues and dps warriors ended up healing themselves a lot.

 

The 1st Evidence is clear, it says that did exist and work as intended.

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QuoteReply

#7 Oct 13 2005 at 12:31 PM Rating: Decent

Cathela

Reportedly this was nerfed in the 1.8 patch so that now you can only have one rank each of JoW and JoL on a monster, though I haven't had a chance to confirm this.

 

The 2nd Evidence indicate that this was "Nerfed" but it doesn't say "removed" , neither "confirmed".

http://web.archive.org/web/20051210112002/http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com:80/thread.aspx?fn=wow-bugs&t=47205&s=blizzard&tmp=1#blizzard

All of the Hotfix and Bug fix by Blizzard,  never ever mention "Multiple Ranks of Judgement" removed , neither nerfed or bug fixed.

This is Evidence that the mechanic was never touched , unlike Blessing which was fixed and sorted + mentioned as Bug.

http://paladinsucks.blogspot.mk/2005/12/super-mana-regen-is-back.html

This is evidence that the mechanic still did exist even in 1.9 + , nobody claim that it was removed , neither nerf and they were hyped of how much Mana they can produce thanks to the new invented Seal of Righteousness which proc each swing.
 

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Thari

You provide evidence of deebuff icons stacking, which they did until patch 2.4? given the patch notes.

 

Here is evidence where you can see that it was not "Visual bug" and the overall Judgement Damage did increase from everyone , not just by the same person.

With 1x JoTC you can see everyone's Consecration did 60-74 damage

With 2x JoTC you can see the damage is 83 by everyone , while the same person does 104 damage.

Since that was PTR

This is Live , you can see it work as intended.

However this was removed during 2.4 Patch ONLY for Judgement of the Crusader , while everything else did continue to stack but was not very often because Mana was never an issue during TBC , neither this was discovered by many during Vanilla.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/patch-notes/2-4-0

Here you can see it was removed only Judgement of the Crusader during 2.4 Patch

http://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/19271-Is-the-JoL-debuff-still-stacking

03-06-2009

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Right before WOTLK launched while i was just getting into boxing i started with 2 paladins... they were both using judgement of light and the debuff (heal on hit) effect was stacking for both pallies.

Here is Evidence from another person saying that during TBC Judgement of Light multiple ranks did stack where he did himself Multiboxing .

This is Evidence that was never removed , neither nerfed or anything .

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/654702-Ensidia-exploited-on-Mimiron-(-proof)/
 

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TLDR - Nihilum was never banned for this type of mechanic
"Blizzard if you are going to pick sides, make it a little less obvious...

Was Nihilum/Ensidia ever banned for using "Clever game mechanics" on.....

C'thun (Know anything about a disgusting Oozling Kungen?)
Lady Vashj.....Respawns?
Twins...No video from first kill Kungen? Sat on a torch?
Hodir....Flower power?
Mimiron...JoL stacking?"

 

Indicates that Blizzard was aware and did approve this , it did not call exploit , neither anyone got banned for it, and it was mention as Clever game mechanics.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20753795791

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Multiple JoL debuffs can already exist on a target, it's just that if yours isn't consumed first, you may see precious little healing from it. I think the idea here is that this will cause them to be consumed more quickly, allowing for multiple Paladins with the talent. Not sure how many JoL it's going to free up room for in practice though.

After the revamp of Judgements, Blizzard again set this Mechanic to work even during 7.2 Patch either , since it is not exploit , they decide to let it be even in the late expansions either.

 

Before you call me that i talk out of my assumptions , here is everything where it confirms that this mechanic did exist and work as intended with full details.

What do you bring ? Only trashtalk, assumptions and no evidence denying everything.

I am sorry but here is something this server have problem with , it is their own big ego and unprofesionalism . Exactly how Darkrasp from Crestfall did behave, exactly how Psojed from Kronos did behave , meme projects with meme developers/QA and i see Phoosy (aka) former PlayTBC does behave with the whole crew of Crestfall testers/reporting on Bugtracker + whole Elysium team supporting it.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[gamemechanic 0]

Still no evidence that this mechanic existed in late vanilla.

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What do you bring ? Only trashtalk, assumptions and no evidence denying everything.

Come on man. You are the one trashtalking on Discord, Github and now you started here. People have had alot of patience with you, even though you never listened.

Lets assume you are right.

People was aware of this mechanic since pre 1.8. The best place for using this mechanic would have been Naxx. Why isn't there a single Naxx video where you can see it?

Show me one Naxx video where double debuf stacking is done..... Just one video.... It should be so easy.

[gamemechanic 0]

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With 2x JoTC you can see the damage is 83 by everyone , while the same person does 104 damage.

Lets end the discussion here.

Thats the difference between rank 5 and rank 6. Not rank 5 + rank 6!

First judgement is rank 5, but gets overwritten by rank 6.

[Theloras 108]

9 hours ago, gamemechanic said:

People was aware of this mechanic since pre 1.8. 

LOLWUT...they even refuted that to begin with yourself included...

These are all the theories that people have tried to come up with over the past week to try and refute the evidence for the multiple ranks of the same judgement mechanic (on github, the elysium forums and reddit):

First - the 2005 blog poster was incorrect and the mechanic never existed in the first place

Second - the mechanic did exist but was a bug and removed/nerfed/hotfixed by blizzard prior to patch 1.8

Third - the mechanic did exist on retail, was removed prior to patch 1.8 then reappeared on a ptr server that magically never went live

Fourth - the mechanic was only on the 2.0 TBC pre-patch PTR

Fifth - the mechanic was only just a visual bug once TBC went live till Blizzard removed it in 2.4

TLDR - people have come up with THEORIES - no one has come up with any EVIDENCE

[Akira 16]

We are closing this thread as it has already served its purpose. 

We have collected sufficient evidence that this is an exploit and it will be fixed in one of our next core updates, so stacking won't be possible anymore. Follow the updates on our official open source repository.