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Vilius

Proc mechanics

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I'm trying to compile a bunch of different information on procs from the source code, forum posts, in-game tests etc.  Below I've listed some questions and in many cases what I *think* the answers are.  Other folks feel free to correct my thinking or add additional knowledge.

  1. Can extra attacks from WF proc things like HoJ?  No (I believe this behavior is governed by the m_doExtraAttacks flag)
  2. Do all of these work identically as in previous question: WF, HoJ, Sword Spec, Ironfoe, Thrash Blade?  Yes
  3. Can a melee hit cause both HoJ and WF procs from that single hit?  Yes.  The code seems to track a counter m_extraAttacks that decrements as extra attacks are executed.  But I'm seeing somewhat conflicting combat log evidence.  I have a log that shows a player hitting Execute, and messages for both HoJ and Windfury Totem pop up, but only one extra attack is shown in the log.  No other events nearby.  Perhaps this is just a combat log bug?
  4. Do all of these work identically as in previous question: WF, HoJ, Sword Spec, Ironfoe, Thrash Blade?  Yes
  5. Can abilities that require melee weapons but that do no damage (such as Sunder Armor) cause procs?  No, but this is believed to be a bug and slated for fix, see Ironfoe testing topic.
  6. Can abilities that require a shield (Shield Slam, Shield Bash) cause procs?  This one is tricky.  In vanilla evidence suggests that they could.  But early in 2.0 this was called out as a bug and removed.  From the Ironfoe topic, it seems that Elysium devs' philosophy is to keep the "fixed" behavior, so Shield Slam and Shield Bash shouldn't proc stuff.  But currently Shield Bash does, so this appears to be a bug based on their ruling.
  7. In two questions above, do extra attack procs function the same as weapon chant procs?  e.g. will Sunder be able to proc both WF and Fiery after the fix?  Might have to wait until after the fix to actually test.
  8. Can DMC: Maelstrom proc from any melee damage dealt including procs?  I've heard the answer to this is "yes" but I don't have one myself to test.
  9. If above question is yes, would that include all of the following or only some of these?  White hits, yellow hits requiring weapon, yellow hits requiring a shield, yellow hits requiring neither (e.g. Bloodthirst), Rend ticks, Deep Wound ticks, TF and other weapon damaging procs, Lifestealing/Fiery procs, rogue poisons, damage reflection (e.g. thorns, Essence of the Pure Flame)?
  10. Again for DMC: Maelstrom, can things that do 0 damage proc it, e.g. Sunder Armor?  I'm guessing no but I suppose this will have to be retested after the Sunder Armor fix mentioned above is implemented.
  11. Can abilities that hit multiple targets (e.g. Cleave, Sweeping Strikes, Whirlwind) cause procs on each of those targets, and if so are there any restrictions to those?

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6:  Shield Slam and Bash are counted as main hand weapon damage and the procing of events from those abilities is a vanilla feature.

8:  Yes it can.   Though to note that DMC: Maelstrom proc rate is much lower than it initially was on Nost causing the majority of the server to bank/vendor them or use farming.  Feral druids may still hold interest due to the static percentage proc rate and their fast attack speed.

9:  White hits / Yellow Hits / Extra Swing Hits / Weapon Procs such as Thunderfury can all proc DMC: Maelstrom, however periodic damage can not.  Refective damage such as thorns and essence of the pure flame can not proc the trinket or any weapon procs.

10: The amount of damage an ability does should not dictate whether the trinket will proc or not.  An ability that does 0 damage or 2,000 damage would have the same proc table.  This can be identified with weapon procs and DMC: Maelstrom being able to proc off a bubbled pally or Nef during a pally call.  My abilities will do 0 damage / immune yet the procs still go off.

11: Yes cleave/AoE type attacks can proc DMC: Maelstrom and other weapon procs on the additional targets hit.

Bonus:   Procs can proc off of themselves with the exception of Extra Swing procs and Thunderfury (was implemented for TF because the AoE debuff that does 0 damage (kinda like sunder armor is a debuff) would still have a 30% chance (was the proc rate of TF at the time) to trigger the main target 300 damage ability on the secondary targets.  This could cause a chain reaction of TF proccing not only the debuff to all 5 mobs, but each jump had a 30% chance to also hitting that target with 300 damage.  This lead to fury warriors doing 42% damage of a raid on phase 1 of Nef and quickly after came the nerf.

The fact that the proccing ability from the TF debuff had to be manually removed from that specific weapon is an easy indicator that Sunder being a debuff only SHOULD also have the ability to create procs with the same limitations above.

Items such as Vis'Kag, Deathbringer, DMC: Maelstrom, 2/4 set Stormshroud, and enchants such as Firey Weapon, Lifestealing, Blazing can all proc other procs (even proccing themselves off itself ie: Firey Weapon proccing Firey Weapon), however the procs will not trigger extra swing.

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Most of what you are saying seems right and matches what I've seen.  Couple things:

#6 : I agree that's how they worked in Vanilla, but the devs' position is that they shouldn't work that way, and Shield Slam right now does not proc extra attacks for sure.  See https://forum.elysium-project.org/topic/48239-ironfoe-testing/

#10: I agree that's how it should work, but right now Sunder isn't proc'ing extra attacks, and was unsure if it was also not proc'ing stuff like Maelstrom.  In topic linked above the extra attack bug is discussed and there's a fix that should be in the next development update.

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On 6/23/2017 at 11:32 PM, Vilius said:

Can abilities that hit multiple targets (e.g. Cleave, Sweeping Strikes, Whirlwind) cause procs on each of those targets, and if so are there any restrictions to those?

Yes they can, I'm not 100% sure if there are any restrictions, specially regarding sweeping strikes I'm not totally sure if it follow the same rules but each extra attack from cleave and whirlwind is treated like an independent melee swing.

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1. No.

2. Yes.

3. This could be yes, but im not sure. I might be able to explain your combat log though. From my understanding, execute has 2 components, and this complication makes it not trigger main hand chance on hits. That might explain why it triggers HoJ, but not windfury (since windfury is a weapon enchant). Hopefully the next dev update fixes this.

4. Not sure, and its hard to test since it is a low probability event. My intuition tells me yes.

5. Currently, no. Next dev update, I hope so!

6. Currently, no. QA team seems to considers shield slam/bash triggering main hand procs a bug that was patched in 2.0 

7. After the fix, sunder should be procing enchants and extra hits like windfury procs. Extra attacks shouldnt proc chance on hits that generate more extra attacks. However, extra attacks should be procing chance on hit abilities that are not extra attacks like enchants.

8. I think so. Depends on what you consider physical damage. I don't know if it procs off dots like rend, but maybe it procs off the first application of rend? I also think that this trinket is ppm based, ie the slower the weapon the greater the proc chance per hit. Druids use slow weapons, but in reality they attack at 1.0, so I think they get an abnormally large benefit from this. The SQL file shows it having 1 ppm. However, I have no evidence the trinket works this way and I cant confirm this since I don't play druid.

9. Like #8, not too sure on this.

10. Like #8, not sure. I would think it would after the fix though. To counter Undertanker's point, I think the "immune" argument doesn't apply here. Based on my testing, I believe that the result of a hit/miss/crit etc is rolled and calculated and then afterwards the mob will be immune to the damage - so the attack still registers as a hit that does damage, but the target just happens to be immune to that damage. A little bit different than casting a spell/ability that does no damage to begin with.

11. Cleave and WW, yes. Sweeping strikes, i'm not sure but I dont think so (for main hand weapons at least, not sure about Malestrom and HoJ). Sweeping strikes and retaliation behave in weird ways I believe.

Another comment in response to Undertanker's bonus on chain procs. I know extra swings can trigger other non-extra swing procs, but I have never actually seen something like fiery/maelstrom proc another fiery/maelstrom and this could be due to a lack of extensive testing. What he is posting seems to be based on what he believes should happen, but might not necessarily reflect what happens on this server. If you are adamant about testing this, I would recommend getting fiery, and see if you can get a double proc from one white swing. 

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3. This could be yes, but im not sure. I might be able to explain your combat log though. From my understanding, execute has 2 components, and this complication makes it not trigger main hand chance on hits. That might explain why it triggers HoJ, but not windfury (since windfury is a weapon enchant). Hopefully the next dev update fixes this.

Possibly, although strange that the log would show "gains Windfury Totem" but no extra hit occurs.

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10. Like #8, not sure. I would think it would after the fix though. To counter Undertanker's point, I think the "immune" argument doesn't apply here. Based on my testing, I believe that the result of a hit/miss/crit etc is rolled and calculated and then afterwards the mob will be immune to the damage - so the attack still registers as a hit that does damage, but the target just happens to be immune to that damage. A little bit different than casting a spell/ability that does no damage to begin with.

For auto attacks, the code has three separate proc flags: procAttacker, procVictim, and procEx (extra attacks).  procAttacker is set to "successful melee hit" before damage is calculated and before the outcome is rolled.  procEx is set to PROC_EX_IMMUNE if the target is immune (which isn't one of the values that causes extra attacks to trigger).  So I believe if a target is immune, weapon procs can happen but extra attacks don't.  I'm sure that Crusader procs on banished targets for example, so that matches what Undertanker has observed.  All that being said, Sunder Armor isn't handled by the immunity code so the bug we are seeing with Sunder not procing is a different issue.

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Another comment in response to Undertanker's bonus on chain procs. I know extra swings can trigger other non-extra swing procs, but I have never actually seen something like fiery/maelstrom proc another fiery/maelstrom and this could be due to a lack of extensive testing. What he is posting seems to be based on what he believes should happen, but might not necessarily reflect what happens on this server. If you are adamant about testing this, I would recommend getting fiery, and see if you can get a double proc from one white swing.

In the code there is a check done for procs to see if the trigger spell and proc spell are the same, and if so it disallows it.  If anyone has combat log evidence to the contrary I'd like to see it, always possible I missed something because the code is complex.

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"Gains windfury", could simply be from windfury totem applying the buff to your weapon, different from gaining extra windfury attacks. Again, i dont play horde so not sure.

Also, extra attacks can happen on immune mobs, at least with Ironfoe. Ive had Ironfoe proc on banished/immuned mobs many times.

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That proc trigger spell vs proc spell name restriction should NOT be in the game, only for Thunderfury.  I've posted my proof a few times in other threads showing fiery weapon proccing off itself from 2005/2006.

Another made up restriction on this server limiting the strength of chance on hit 

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"Gains windfury", could simply be from windfury totem applying the buff to your weapon, different from gaining extra windfury attacks. Again, i dont play horde so not sure.

"gains windfury totem" is just how the combat log displays that an extra attack has triggered from Windfury.  That message pops in, you get the extra hit, then it fades.  Sometimes the extra hit message can appear before the "gains windfury totem" message.  So far that execute case is the only case I've seen where you see the "gain" and "fade" message, but no extra hit occurs.

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Also, extra attacks can happen on immune mobs, at least with Ironfoe. Ive had Ironfoe proc on banished/immuned mobs many times.

Good to know, I'll have another look at the procEx code.

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On 6/25/2017 at 8:50 AM, Undertanker said:

8:  Yes it can.   Though to note that DMC: Maelstrom proc rate is much lower than it initially was on Nost causing the majority of the server to bank/vendor them or use farming.  Feral druids may still hold interest due to the static percentage proc rate and their fast attack speed.

On 6/26/2017 at 3:36 AM, Omgdontdie said:

8. I think so. Depends on what you consider physical damage. I don't know if it procs off dots like rend, but maybe it procs off the first application of rend? I also think that this trinket is ppm based, ie the slower the weapon the greater the proc chance per hit. Druids use slow weapons, but in reality they attack at 1.0, so I think they get an abnormally large benefit from this. The SQL file shows it having 1 ppm. However, I have no evidence the trinket works this way and I cant confirm this since I don't play druid.

I know my response is a little dated but DMC: Maelstrom has 1PPM This actually means it is trash on feral druids since it uses the attack speed of our current form, which is 1.0 in cat form resulting in a measly 1.6666% chance to proc per hit (white or yellow).  

 

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Druids do not have top attack speed, A Rogue dual wielding 1.3 speed daggers with Slice and Dice up effectively has 0.46 attack speed to the druid's 1.0 ;) Which is more than double

 

Edited by Coressar

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