Worth going for crul?

[Nirinia 0]

Currently rocking ironfoe on a nelf mt (no wep skill bonuses) is it worth going for a Crul or should I leave it for the other tanks/furies? Assuming after the next dev update goes through ofc

[Storfan 24]

Orc: Yes.

Any other race: Most likely no.

Undertanker knows better.

[Nirinia 0]

I forgot to mention that I have a tf binding in the bank

[Storfan 24]

9 minutes ago, Nirinia said:

I forgot to mention that I have a tf binding in the bank

Even more reason to not take crul over furies then in my opinion. Ironfoe is going to rock in next patch.

[Undertanker 88]

To take variations of AP out of the equation we can do this by talking in % rather than raw numbers to determine it's value.

@6% proc rate:

3.9 procs per minute assuming 25 autos + 40 globals.

This is 7.8 extra white hits, our Auto Table now has a pool of 32.8 hits each minutes / 31.2% increase of rage gaining / white hit performing abilities.

Take the 43.5 DPS from Ironfoe and add that 31.2% to the weapon and we get 13.5 more raw DPS to the weapon.

Performance of a Stat-less 57 DPS weapon.  My previous calculations used the 5% proc rate which is why I initially stated 56.3 ish on other post.  So on par with Vis'Kag due to that proc also giving rage and slightly slower than deathbringer as the proc of deathbringer sucks, but the 2.9 speed gives a decent amount more average AP with crusaders PPM variations.

Remember that Crul also has AP (though limited use to tanks vs fury) and has Stam to increase your EHP which Ironfoe does not.

The raw AP Crul gives is > than the additional AP average you get from a 0.1 second slower MH for crusader PPM variations. 

PS: You never know when or if that other binding will drop.  If you were horde I'd say pass all day until all Orcs had it, but since you are Alli, and the majority of fury warriors are or should be human, go for Crul.

[Omgdontdie 1]

Removing variations from attack power doesn't work with "extra-attack" weapons like Ironfoe. Refer to one of my comments on my thread on page-2ish.

TLDR; Ironfoe outperforms Crul for pure TPS.

[Undertanker 88]

2 minutes ago, Omgdontdie said:

Removing variations from attack power doesn't work with "extra-attack" weapons like Ironfoe.

Why not?

You get the same % adjustments of performance from Ironfoe vs Deathbringer / Crul / random gray weapon in terms of x amount of attack power per swing.

[Omgdontdie 1]

The reason that this doesn't work is because Ironfoe doesn't scale at the same rate as other weapons from attack power. The proc becomes increasingly powerful as you gain attack power. 

Let me break this down into a hypothetical example...

Situation 1: Ironfoe has 1 base dps, and item X has 100 base dps. You have 0 attack power. Clearly we see that item X is superior to Ironfoe, since the proc can't make up for the loss of base damage.

Situation 2: Ironfoe has 1 base dps, and item X has 100 base dps. This time, you have 100000 attack power. Clearly we see that base weapon damage is barely relevant, and a 5-6% chance to grant two extra swings easily makes up for any loss of base damage.

[Undertanker 88]

 

Spoiler

 

So we can take your value of 700 ish AP.

700/14 - 50 DPS.   50 DPS*31.2% 15.6

65.6 DPS from AP. for Ironfoe, 50 DPS from AP for other weapons.

We'll do the math with 1,000 AP as well (you'll see why later), so will give:

93 DPS from AP for Ironfoe, 71 DPS for other weapons.

We can agree the base performance is 57 DPS from my calculations above with 0 AP?

700 AP:

Ironfoe - 109.1 DPS.  Crul (36 AP more) will have - 115.3 DPS

1,000 AP:

Ironfoe - 136.5 DPS.  Crul (36 AP more) will have - 136.4.

 

If you have 1k AP that is the breaking point of when Ironfoe becomes better than Crul prior to any weapon skill considerations (which gives about an 8% benefit to tanks) for threat specific conversations.

This does not account for the EHP that Crul is giving you.   This is where item budgeting needs to come into play, which slots can you swap out for items with a bit less stam but give something like hit, and is equaled out by the stam you are getting from Crul.  A good example of a budget slot would be Bracer.   Using Trueflight Bracers over T2 bracers.     You'll retail around the same stam, yet gain 19 agil for crit and dodge and gain 1 hit.

 

[Omgdontdie 1]

While I disagree about the break point being 1k ap, the TLDR is the same. Both are great for threat, and Crul gives you some extra suitability at the cost of some TPS. 

[Omgdontdie 1]

Niri, made some estimates regarding AP breakpoints for IF vs Crul if you are interested.

Spoiler

 

Now that I'm curious as to what the actual AP break point is to make IF>Crul, for the sake of satisfying my own curiosity, here is how we would break it down using a similar approach to Undertanker:

In one minute, we have 25 autos and 30 spells that can trigger Ironfoe. This gives us 2.75ppm(5.5 extra swings)  and 3.3ppm(6.6 extra swings) at 5% and 6% respectively.

Given that we have 25 autos w/o any procs, 5.5 extra swings from a 5% proc rate is a (25+5.5)/25=1.22=22% increase in damage. Similarly, 6.6 extra swings from a 6% proc rate is a (25+6.6)/25=1.264=26.4% increase in damage.

Applying this to IF's base damage only, we get a base dps of 43.5*1.22=53.07 and 43.5*1.264=54.98 at 5% and 6% respectively, without accounting for AP.

We already know that the value of Crul's dps is 62.8+(36/14)=65.37. [62.8 base damage + (36/14) damage from AP]

This leaves a deficit of 65.37-53.07=12.3dps and 65.37-54.98=10.39dps that needs to be made up by AP at 5% and 6% respectively.

To work this out backwards, we simply use the AP formula and multiply it by IF's damage modifier. We get (AP/14)*0.22=12.3 and (AP/14)*0.264=10.39 at 5% and 6% respectively. Solving with basic algebra, we get the following breakpoints...

At a 5% proc rate, IF>Crul @ 783 AP.

At a 6% proc rate, IF>Crul @ 551 AP.

Note: these break points are BEFORE we account for weapon skill. Given these values though, even orcs might prefer IF>Crul with BWL gear and buffs.

 

 

[Nobo 1]

 

On 27.6.2017 at 6:24 AM, Undertanker said:

If you have 1k AP that is the breaking point of when Ironfoe becomes better than Crul prior to any weapon skill considerations (which gives about an 8% benefit to tanks) for threat specific conversations.

raid buffed you should be at 1,3k+ ap anyway as a tank