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Twinkan

Rogue sub Built

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Hello everyone, ive recently joined this server which i had no ideia it existed about 4 days ago, i was amazed to see that the prime jewel of WoW still existed and it was freaking free :OOO, so i decided to give it a shot since, i played the beginning of TBC mostly has a PvP rogue, but when WotlK came out and i simply rage quitted due to the ABSURD amount of DK's steamboating everyone with green gear..Until then i haven't picked up WoW ever since, so i am in abit of a dilema here.

I have seen most rogues spec combat, but in my opinion i dislike it since we lose the rogues unique mechanics backstabs ambush's for insane amounts of damage, thus i am not sure if i should go for sub or not, I do miss being able to sneak about everywhere doing my thing and puff, but combat seems more linear?

So my question is, is it viable to make a sub rogue in Vanilla, and if so which built would be more suited to it?

PS: Thanks to the staff for bringing such a gem of a game back to life much love! Cheers! .

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34 minutes ago, Twinkan said:

So my question is, is it viable to make a sub rogue in Vanilla, and if so which built would be more suited to it?

The word "viable" requires context.

Do you mean "viable" in terms of elitistjerks endgame raiding of delivering maximum damage throughput in the shortest amount of time so as to speedrun through 40 man raids?

Do you mean "viable" in terms of being "successful" at soloing and grouping for 5 man dungeons?

Do you mean "viable" in terms of rushing through Level progression from 10-60 as quickly as possible so as to get on with the endgame raiding (already)?

Do you mean "viable" in terms of being able to Level through progression from 10-60 in a way that is fun to play and not "self-gimping" in terms of Corpse Runs Per Hour of gameplay?

Pretty much everything about your question hinges upon the context of which environment you want to be "viable" in, because different environments reward different build strategies and investments (PvE versus PvP, for example).

For PvE play, I'm personally building my way towards using a 12/8/31 build on Darrowshire that is organized around Initiative/Lightning Reflexes/Dodge/Setup maximization for generating "free" Combo Points as well as Ruthlessness/Relentless Strikes/Hemorrhage for maximum energy efficiency at generating Combo Points "on demand" to use in Slice and Dice/Eviscerate/Rupture/Cheap Shot Finishers as needed given the circumstances I've fighting in.  Slice and Dice offers either +20% (10-41) or +30% (42-60) melee speed, depending on skill rank (1 or 2), and offers a greater return on investment per talent point than Improved Eviscerate (and unlike Eviscerate is something you can keep "up" all the time rather than "saving" it for 5 CP Finishers only).  Openers from Stealth will typically be either Ambush or Garrote depending on the situation, and I do a LOT of Pickpocketing to supplement my income (and to eventually gain Ravenholdt Reputation from pilfered Heavy Junkboxes).  Garrote plus Rupture on this build amounts to a You're Already Dead, You Just Haven't Gotten The Memo Yet type of performance against highly armored targets, while Ambush plus Hemorrhage/Eviscerate makes short work of lightly armored targets.

Currently, my Rogue is only Level 32 with all talent points spent in Subtlety thus far, but the build just keeps getting stronger and stronger as the talent points accumulate and get spent.  In keeping with the Subtlety theme, the build plays very much like a versatile "bag of tricks" that allows it to perform quite nicely in almost any situation and circumstance.  That's because rather than relying on riding a One Trick Pony™ into the sunset, this build makes use of very nearly ALL THE TRICKS that a Rogue can bring to bear.  This is because the cornerstone foundation of the 12/8/31 build isn't any one single IWIN! one hit kill strategy, and if you can't pull it off then it sucks to be you, but instead relies on the synergistic potential to be found in efficient generation of Combo Points for very little Energy cost, reducing wait times before being able to unleash (another) 5 CP Finisher on your target.  There's even a decent amount of Dodge Tanking potential in the build in the event that you find yourself needing to hold aggro (a common occurrence while soloing), which can result in earning "free" Combo Points to use with Finishers.

Overall, the build is fast, responsive and flexible, making it a very fun experience to Level from 10-60 in PvE.

And then there's this bit of heresy I wrote up for someone else in another thread that ultimately wound up making them very very happy with a PvP build, even though I don't PvP myself.  See for yourself ...

On 7/18/2017 at 8:17 AM, Roxanne Flowers said:

Here's something that's a bit ironic for you to consider.

With a Hemo build, you don't want to be using Poisons on your weapons (I know, heresy, right?) ... you want to be using Sharpening/Weight stones, depending on whether your weapons are edged or blunt.  The extra damage from sharpening doesn't rely on a chance to affect, it consistently happens on every single hit.  Furthermore, Hemo increases physical damage dealt, and Sharpening/Weight stones increase physical damage dealt.  Also, the Sharp/Weight stones don't have charges on them, they just have a duration, so you don't have to keep reapplying them faster than the duration.  And if you "know" a Miner/Blacksmith they're dirt cheap to obtain.

So long as you're in a situation where you don't need to be using specialty poisons (anything besides the damaging ones), if you're using Hemo you might as well be using Daggers and Sharpening stone(s), and the Sharpening bonus isn't normalized by weapon speed, because it's bonus damage on every hit, meaning you'll get "more" out of sharpening fast Daggers than you will out of sharpening slow ones measured over the same span of time (in which presumably you're making more hits).

That means there's a curious edge case with Hemo where you're wanting to create the highest possible amount of physical damage at ALL times, rather than intermittently applying poison damage some of the time (chance to take effect).  And by increasing the amount of physical damage you're doing with your Dagger(s), you also bump up the amount of damage throughput you can achieve from Ambush, just by sharpening your main hand Dagger.  That then reduces the "need" for Vile and/or Improved Poisons.

Furthermore, if you've got a Hemo spec, you're honestly better off using Hemo twice (35+35 Energy) than you are using Backstab once (60 Energy).  You can also "stab them in the face" rather than needing to Gouge and maneuver for a back shot all the time.  In fact, when including the Energy cost of Gouge into the equation (never mind the talent points!), you need 105 Energy to Gouge+Backstab (45+60) ... while for the same 105 Energy you could have used Hemo THREE TIMES (35+35+35) and likely gotten more damage out of the latter than the former (even with a Backstab crit).  There's also the fact that the former nets you only a single Combo Point, while the latter nets you THREE Combo Points(!) without needing any kind of positioning setup or cooldowns, making the Hemo/Hemo/Hemo usage of 105 Energy much less circumstances/situation dependent.

Combine those factors together ... Hemo, Ambush, Sharpening versus Poisons ... and suddenly the advantages of going to Tier 5 in Assassination diminish rather dramatically.  Indeed, with Deadliness from Subtlety increasing your Attack Power and Serrated Blades increasing your Rupture damage (which as a Bleed effect isn't reduced by Armor) and Hemo increasing that even further, you reach a point where in some situations it's better to Rupture than it is to Eviscerate as your 5 CP Finisher, for that "you're already dead, you just haven't gotten the memo yet" effect.  Still, if you're raiding, the debuff cap will change the calculus of all this.

For me, the logic of Hemo x3 versus Gouge+Backstab and the consideration of 3 CP vs 1 CP for that 105 Energy spent is pretty much inescapable.  You open with Ambush on low armor targets, or open with either Garrote or Cheap Shot on higher armor targets.  Hemo your way to 5 CP as fast as you can and then either Rupture or Eviscerate depending on how fast you need to end the fight.  Spend your next CP(s) on a Slice and Dice and then simply lay into your target with more Hemo and fast white damage that amounts to a consistent physical DoT instead of relying on poison procs to apply Nature damage.  Gives you the flexibility for either Instant Kill (Ambush to Eviscerate) or Overkill (Garrote to Rupture to Slice and Dice).

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Hey Roxanne Flowers, i apologize for not specifying which context, in general basicly i like to solo mostly, never been a great fan of PvE but i do like to carry my weight in it if required, I was checking you're build it sounds really flexible all those free combo points are indeed tempting to say the least, I have noticed aswell that i can stack up more damage in the long run with garrote/rupture then with eviscerate, looks refreshing really, abit diferent from what im used to but I will definitly try it later for sure! Has im still level 23 not sure if it would be wise to use it while leveling?

Thank you for the enlightening post extremelly usefull

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9 hours ago, Twinkan said:

I was checking your build it sounds really flexible all those free combo points are indeed tempting to say the least

As advertised, it's an attempt to make ALL of the Bag o' Tricks available to you, rather than "specializing" in any one particular trick.  Fast generation of Combo Points for less Energy Cost means faster cycling through Finishers, with a decision at each Finisher to meet the needs of the circumstances you're currently fighting in.

Yes, there are plenty of situations where the damage throughput generation of Garrote and Rupture will outperform that of Eviscerate.  The problem is that in order to realize that (full) potential, The Fight Must Go On (and on and on and on).  Ambush+Eviscerate is good for short sharp engagements that last less than 10 seconds.  Garrote's duration is 18 seconds, while a Rupture lasts between 8 and 16 seconds.  If you're expecting to keep fighting for longer than 10 seconds at a stretch, it might be better to use Garrote+Rupture instead of Ambush+Eviscerate ... assuming that what you're fighting is NOT Immune to Bleed effects.  If it is Immune to Bleed effects, totally go with Ambush+Eviscerate.

But yeah ... having a "surplus" of Combo Points (and Energy?) is a really nice thing to have on a Rogue.  Being able to unload a 5 CP Finisher every 10-15 seconds (or so) instead of every 20 seconds (or more!) really gives you a sense of Rogue-ish purpose to stay on top of things and anticipate your next move(s) before you execute them.

9 hours ago, Twinkan said:

looks refreshing really, abit diferent from what im used to but I will definitly try it later for sure! Has im still level 23 not sure if it would be wise to use it while leveling?

Going heavy Subtlety, particularly from Level 10+ is widely believed (around here) to be "inferior" for Leveling simply because anything other than Combat (Swords) is perceived to be "slower" at racking up the kills (and therefore the XP).  Those who advocate for Combat Swords will freely admit that playing the spec is "boring" because it makes your Rogue something of a "straight ahead fighter" with not much variation in how to play.  Suffice it to say, the wheel ruts for Combat Swords are well worn and they run pretty deep.

The alternative of Assassination, particularly Seal Fate/Cold Blood type builds are next in popularity because their purpose is to "murder faces" with extreme prejudice (and crits and poisons).  You just look at the tree and it's kind of obvious how it's supposed to work.  Not too much to be said there.

And then there's Subtlety, which most people aren't interested in looking at past the first 2 tiers, mainly because the tree doesn't offer "obvious" ways to supercharge your damage throughput like Assassination and Combat do.  Subtlety is all about making your Rogue a "slippery bastard" to fight, and it does it very well, but for most people that isn't worth losing (big) DAMAGE numbers for, so the tree gets derided and discounted as offering anything beyond maybe 4-6 talents that are worth the price of admission (Master of Deception, Elusiveness, Camouflage, Hemorrhage and Preparation being the main ones, with Ghostly Strike earning a "Miss Congeniality" also ran status).  The thing is, Hemorrhage, and the ways you can use it, is quite literally game changing, in large part because it's a Combo Point generator that costs only 35 Energy.  Everything else costs 40-60 Energy, which means that everything else you could use as a Combo Point generator skill takes LONGER to build to 5 CPs AND have the Energy to use a Finisher.

Think of it this way.  Using a talented Sinister Strike 5 times costs 5x40=200 Energy, which takes 20 seconds to recover if starting from zero.  Using Hermorrhage 5 times costs 175 Energy, which takes 18 seconds to recover if starting from zero.  All of the Finishers cost either 25 Energy or (in the case of Eviscerate) 35 Energy.  This means that when including the cost of using a CP builder skill 5 times PLUS the cost of a Finisher, a Sinister Strike build will need 225-235 Energy minimum(!), which will take about 24 seconds to recover at a rate of 20 Energy per 2 seconds.  By contrast, a Hemorrhage build will cost only 200-210 Energy to accomplish the same thing, which will take 20-22 seconds to recover at the same rate of 20 Energy per 2 seconds.  That means that the Hemorrhage build is inherently capable of being 1/6th faster to build to Finishers than a build relying on (improved) Sinister Strike.

And that's before getting into any of the "free CP when you Dodge" proc in Setup, the intitial "freebie" proc for an extra Combo Point from Initiative when (re)opening from Stealth with Ambush/Garrote/Cheap Shot, or even the "free" Combo Point proc of Ruthlessness and the chance to generate "free" Energy in Relentless Strikes (although the latter two talents are of course Assassination rather than Subtley).  As soon as Combo Points costing ZERO Energy get into the mix, the rate at which you can zoom from zero to five for a Finisher starts really coming down ... and delivering more Finishers in a shorter span of time seriously empowers the Player in ways that a slower buildup to 5 CPs just can't match.

If you're Level 23 and still in the process of working your way deeper into Subtlety, you just need to be patient.  Make sure that every point you're spending is a point going towards getting to Hemorrhage as fast as possible.  As you gain Levels and earn more talent points, you'll see quite directly how everything starts to come together, especially once you can pick up Hemorrhage at Level 30.  After that, it's gravy train time.

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Hahah spot on Roxanne, ive already been testing with Garrote/rupture and oh man the fights do finish fairly quickly, i didn't input all my talents on sub yet because i really wanted Malice and Ruthlessness for that burst which really helps, what REALLY ticks me off is how much can moves miss so many times, but i don't want to spend my talents yet in the combat tree, because like you have adviced getting hemo is a priority  such i will now start investing all the points there.

I did notice that Sinister Strike really takes a toll on my energy dragging my fights more then i wanted to, but those free combo points ill be getting later on will be yummy for sure! Overall i will continue to play this build because its exactly what i want in my rogue, not just mindless fighting but actually thinking ahead and act accordingly.

Will update my experience with it later ;) big cheer mate!

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A weapon swap macro is something I used to use back in the old days with a hemorrhage leveling/pvp build. Let's you get those huge ambush openers and then increase the damage of those hemos.

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It may be of academic interest to some that thanks to what was being talked about in a different thread, I developed a non-Dagger version of my 12/8/31 build that might be interesting for PvP and raiding.

Dagger Ambush 12/8/31 build.
Non-Dagger 12/8/31 build.

The Dagger Ambush Hemorrhage build includes:

  • 3/3 Initiative (75% chance of +1 Combo Point on some openers from Stealth)
  • 3/3 Improved Ambush (+45% critical hit chance using Ambush).

The Non-Dagger Hemorrhage build includes:

  • 2/2 Sleight of Hand (-2% chance to be critically hit in melee or by ranged attacks and 20% more Threat reduction using Feint)
  • 2/2 Elusiveness (-1.5 minutes cooldown on Vanish and Blind)
  • 2/2 Heightened Senses (-4% chance to be hit by ranged attacks and spells, increased Stealth detection).

With the Non-Dagger Hemorrhage build, the attack from Stealth is either going to be Garrote, Cheap Shot or Sap building to Rupture, Kidney Shot, Slice and Dice or Eviscerate as finishers and could make for an interesting style of "knock 'em around" game play if using a pair of Hurd Smashers (of all things) as your Dual Wield weapons where the intent is to control your opponent using stuns/knockdown.

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thanks a lot for this! I played wow from vanilla to lich but never once lvled a rogue, thought it was about time now and looked at sub and thought it has to be the most fun way to play it andIi have to say, the builds look very promising, so, here I am, another satisfied customer :)

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