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DannyLog

Raiding Hemo Rogue

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Hello everyone,

I would like to ask you some question about the Hemo Rogue in Raids. This Thread is not for discussing about the viablity of the Hemo Rogue!

1. Which Talents should i take?

2. The most Important question.. which gear should i take? Im already raiding BWL + AQ40 and have 7/8 T2 + Vis'kag and Warblade of the Hakkari as Swords. But from a german spreadsheet i saw that People that play a Hemo Rogue go for completely different Gear like instead of full T2 they go for 1/8 T1, 5/8 T2 and some other items. As i don't know why they do this i would like to ask u if i should just go with the gear that a Sword Rogue also plays with, just that i change some items. An item list would be nice because the german spreadsheet with the item list doesn't continue with AQ.

3. How should i decide between the items from what i take. Which Stat Priority should i go for?

thank you in advance and i hope u could understand everything, my english isn't the best :)

Edit 1: If someone want's the item list, here you go: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rrwhDoTt0k5Dm7vfOsfDHKnRo6e9r3FAsV-3pSQAD84/pubhtml# like i said it's a german spreadsheet with item lists for all classes.

Edited by DannyLog

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Hate to be the bearer of bad news man, but there isn't really a discussion to be had here. Hemo is a PvP spec. That is why people choose the gear they do. No serious raiding guild will ever allow a hemo rogue in the raid for 2 simple reasons. 1. DPS is poor. 2. Hemo takes up a debuff slot that could be used for something else much more beneficial. 

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Hemorrhage rank 3 adds up to +7 Damage to physical damage hits.  This debuff lasts for 30 hits or 15 seconds, whichever comes first.

30 hits for +7 damage is +210 Damage per debuff.

I'm just going to assume that it will take less than 15 seconds for a 40 man raid to hit a boss 30 times with physical damage attacks.

Sustained over infinite time, a Rogue can (reliably) use Hemorrhage every 4 seconds due to (base) Energy recovery.  If the raid is hitting a boss with physical damage attacks 30 times in 4 seconds or less, which is possible depending on raid composition, then Hemorrhage is adding 210/4=52.5 DPS (which is then reduced by Armor for direct hits but not for Bleed DoTs, which I presume will not be present due to the aforementioned debuff cap) every 4 seconds or so. roughly speaking.  That extra damage gets attributed to every member of the raid who is doing physical damage.

You really only need "one" Hemorrhage Rogue in a raid in order to get the benefit for all of the physical damage dealers.  In that respect, it's a bit like having someone swing a Nightfall Axe so that the spellcasters can all do more damage.

So the "break even" point on having Hemorrhage in a raid is whether or not your 40 man raid will deal 30 hits of physical damage in 4 seconds or less.  If it does, then Hemorrhage can be a benefit, since it will reliably increase physical damage output of the entire raid on the Subtlety Rogue's target.  If the raid can't hit something 30 times with physical damage every 4 seconds, then the "efficiency" of the Hemorrhage debuff loses efficiency in terms of throughput, since some of its benefit is being lost/wasted over long damage cycles.

So it really comes down to a question of whether or not an extra +3150 Physical Damage Per Minute (+210 every 4 seconds for 60 seconds) is something that your 40 man raid can make use of ... or not.  If it can't, then that'll be because you don't have enough Physical Damage attackers hitting the target fast enough to get the most mileage out of the debuff.

It really is all about priorities.

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19 hours ago, Roxanne Flowers said:

Hemorrhage rank 3 adds up to +7 Damage to physical damage hits.  This debuff lasts for 30 hits or 15 seconds, whichever comes first.

30 hits for +7 damage is +210 Damage per debuff.

I'm just going to assume that it will take less than 15 seconds for a 40 man raid to hit a boss 30 times with physical damage attacks.

Sustained over infinite time, a Rogue can (reliably) use Hemorrhage every 4 seconds due to (base) Energy recovery.  If the raid is hitting a boss with physical damage attacks 30 times in 4 seconds or less, which is possible depending on raid composition, then Hemorrhage is adding 210/4=52.5 DPS (which is then reduced by Armor for direct hits but not for Bleed DoTs, which I presume will not be present due to the aforementioned debuff cap) every 4 seconds or so. roughly speaking.  That extra damage gets attributed to every member of the raid who is doing physical damage.

You really only need "one" Hemorrhage Rogue in a raid in order to get the benefit for all of the physical damage dealers.  In that respect, it's a bit like having someone swing a Nightfall Axe so that the spellcasters can all do more damage.

So the "break even" point on having Hemorrhage in a raid is whether or not your 40 man raid will deal 30 hits of physical damage in 4 seconds or less.  If it does, then Hemorrhage can be a benefit, since it will reliably increase physical damage output of the entire raid on the Subtlety Rogue's target.  If the raid can't hit something 30 times with physical damage every 4 seconds, then the "efficiency" of the Hemorrhage debuff loses efficiency in terms of throughput, since some of its benefit is being lost/wasted over long damage cycles.

So it really comes down to a question of whether or not an extra +3150 Physical Damage Per Minute (+210 every 4 seconds for 60 seconds) is something that your 40 man raid can make use of ... or not.  If it can't, then that'll be because you don't have enough Physical Damage attackers hitting the target fast enough to get the most mileage out of the debuff.

It really is all about priorities.

Ty for ur advice. Can u maybe give me any further tips like Talent build atleast?

Edited by DannyLog

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1 hour ago, DannyLog said:

Ty for ur advice. Can u maybe give me any further tips like Talent build atleast?

Well ... yes ... but because of here Hemorrhage is in the Subtlety tree (at 21 talents deep) there are a HUGE number of varieties of builds that can make use of it.  You can do 30/0/21 builds.  You can do 0/30/21 builds.  You can do the 12/8/31 build that I'm planning to use for my Rogue on Darrowshire (currently only Level 34 and loving Hemorrhage) which builds on a cornerstone of fast combo point building and finisher cycles using Daggers for Ambush.

You can do Sword builds with Hemorrhage.
You can do Mace builds with Hemorrhage.
You can do Ambush Dagger builds with Hemorrhage.
You can do Fist Weapon builds with Hemorrhage (although WHY you'd want to is left as an exercise for the reader).

The one thing you probably won't be using if you've got Hemorrhage is Backstab, except in some edge case circumstances (for quick assist kills), since generally speaking for the amount of Energy spent you can Hemorrhage twice for the price of one Backstab (or even three Hemorrhage attacks versus one Gouge+Backstab combo) without needing to worry about positioning for a back attack (Hemorrhage let's you "front stab" things in the face) making Hemorrhage a lot easier to use.

So as far as talent builds for Hemorrhage go, it really boils down to whether or not you plan to use Daggers ... since if you don't then you'll want to shuffle talent points in Subtlety to not invest in Improved Ambush (for what should be obvious reasons).  Other than that, you're looking at a 0/0/17 plus 4 more points in Subtlety build in order to get to Hemorrhage.  After that, you'll still have 30 talent points to spend wherever you'd like.

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On ‎27‎.‎09‎.‎2017 at 9:44 PM, Roxanne Flowers said:

Well ... yes ... but because of here Hemorrhage is in the Subtlety tree (at 21 talents deep) there are a HUGE number of varieties of builds that can make use of it.  You can do 30/0/21 builds.  You can do 0/30/21 builds.  You can do the 12/8/31 build that I'm planning to use for my Rogue on Darrowshire (currently only Level 34 and loving Hemorrhage) which builds on a cornerstone of fast combo point building and finisher cycles using Daggers for Ambush.

You can do Sword builds with Hemorrhage.
You can do Mace builds with Hemorrhage.
You can do Ambush Dagger builds with Hemorrhage.
You can do Fist Weapon builds with Hemorrhage (although WHY you'd want to is left as an exercise for the reader).

The one thing you probably won't be using if you've got Hemorrhage is Backstab, except in some edge case circumstances (for quick assist kills), since generally speaking for the amount of Energy spent you can Hemorrhage twice for the price of one Backstab (or even three Hemorrhage attacks versus one Gouge+Backstab combo) without needing to worry about positioning for a back attack (Hemorrhage let's you "front stab" things in the face) making Hemorrhage a lot easier to use.

So as far as talent builds for Hemorrhage go, it really boils down to whether or not you plan to use Daggers ... since if you don't then you'll want to shuffle talent points in Subtlety to not invest in Improved Ambush (for what should be obvious reasons).  Other than that, you're looking at a 0/0/17 plus 4 more points in Subtlety build in order to get to Hemorrhage.  After that, you'll still have 30 talent points to spend wherever you'd like.

Im planning to use swords for sure. But i'm not sure if i could just go for MH Sword and offhand dagger(With AQ Gear i would use Qiraj Ripper mainhand and the C'thun dagger Offhand then).

This is a build that i've seen that could work well but im not that sure about it: http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fhe0oxuZZxMe0hhRq

just 2 Things that hold me off from starting playing hemo rogue.

1. I Need a Talent build for sword, i saw 2 People already going for 21/00/30. Example is above. But is that really that good or do u have a "better" build to use hemorrhage rogue with swords? Some People go for ghostly strike, some don't.

2. Gear.. im still not sure if i should go for a mix of gear before AQ40 or just use 8/8 T2 with some Crit and AP items(Cloak of Firemaw for example).

btw. ty very much for helping me, ur answers are very fast and ur one of those that know what they're doing.

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Look if you're going to be all ...

latest?cb=20090111125719

... then you really ought to have courage in your convictions and go all the way with it.  That means ...

1c1.png

And why would you do that (I hear you cry)?

337

So if you want to do a Hemorrhage build while going all in on Dual Sword(-chucks), you're going to want a raiding build that looks a lot like this ...

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fZ0xEz0mzxbZxoeohhoo

... and needless to say, doing this with a Human Rogue would probably get you the most mileage out of the build.  And why is that?  Well, because ...

latest?cb=20090111125719

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On ‎30‎.‎09‎.‎2017 at 9:16 PM, Roxanne Flowers said:

Look if you're going to be all ...

latest?cb=20090111125719

... then you really ought to have courage in your convictions and go all the way with it.  That means ...

1c1.png

And why would you do that (I hear you cry)?

337

So if you want to do a Hemorrhage build while going all in on Dual Sword(-chucks), you're going to want a raiding build that looks a lot like this ...

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fZ0xEz0mzxbZxoeohhoo

... and needless to say, doing this with a Human Rogue would probably get you the most mileage out of the build.  And why is that?  Well, because ...

latest?cb=20090111125719

great ty very much :) just a completely different build from the build i would've gone for. i think i will start going for this build with AQ gear because im yet not sure which gear i should go for and i don't want to Change my gear since i already have full T2. It's a shame that im a Gnome :/ but i won't Change my race anymore.

Edited by DannyLog

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