"Full" arcane raiding.

[simppi 3]

Hello guise, any of you have experience raiding with or as a "full" arcane mage (this spec http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#oixEbocquZbhhbc) and can tell me clearly why/how they are not viable in a non-hc raid enviorment (not casual eighter)?

[Undertanker 88]

It scales worse with gear than just using a proper arcane frost spec:

 

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#of0VfofquZVA0c0s  (can swap last point of threat reduction into reach if you want)

 

Not only does arcane missile not scale as well, you don't benefit from Warlock Curse of elements, no increased crit damage, no increased arcane missile damage.

 

Also won't get the benefit of the assigned mage (or two) that will be running deep frost:

 

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#ow0Vf0soZZVA0c0fzA

 

for Winter's Chill debuff so you get even 10% more crit for your frost bolt.     Arcane missile mage will only enjoy the Val fight in BWL with avoiding push-back.

[simppi 3]

It scales worse with gear than just using a proper arcane frost spec:

 

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#of0VfofquZVA0c0s  (can swap last point of threat reduction into reach if you want)

 

Not only does arcane missile not scale as well, you don't benefit from Warlock Curse of elements, no increased crit damage, no increased arcane missile damage.

 

Also won't get the benefit of the assigned mage (or two) that will be running deep frost:

 

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#ow0Vf0soZZVA0c0fzA

 

for Winter's Chill debuff so you get even 10% more crit for your frost bolt.     Arcane missile mage will only enjoy the Val fight in BWL with avoiding push-back.

Why does it scale worse with gear?

One warlock can just use curse of shadow aswell. What do u mean no increased crit and arcane missile dmg?

Why would u only enjoy the Val fight in bwl?

[Undertanker 88]

Why does it scale worse with gear?

One warlock can just use curse of shadow aswell. What do u mean no increased crit and arcane missile dmg?

Why would u only enjoy the Val fight in bwl?

Forgot CoS does arcane.

 

Frost tree increases damage by frost spells by 6%, no increased damage % for arcane.     Frost gets 100% crit strike damage bonus = so your spell crits do 200% of normal damage instead of 150%.   Arcane does not get this.   Not to mention 15% less spell cost of your frost spells.    

 

Val does a pulsing ability to everybody in the raid so casting frost bolt get's a lot of spell pushback lowering your dps.   Arcane missile can spec into 100% reduced pushback so they can spam spells better on this fight.

[simppi 3]

Frost tree increases damage by frost spells by 6%, no increased damage % for arcane.     Frost gets 100% crit strike damage bonus = so your spell crits do 200% of normal damage instead of 150%.   Arcane does not get this.   Not to mention 15% less spell cost of your frost spells.    

 

Val does a pulsing ability to everybody in the raid so casting frost bolt get's a lot of spell pushback lowering your dps.   Arcane missile can spec into 100% reduced pushback so they can spam spells better on this fight.

AM r8 does 575 dmg per 2,5sec and frostbolt r9 does 515-556 dmg per, so AM has a higher base dmg.

As arcane u don't want crit anyway, but arcane do get 10 less resistance from talents, not to mention u need 4% less hit from gear.

[Xykaru 1]

Arcane missiles is also extremely mana inefficient if I recall correctly.

[simppi 3]

Arcane missiles is also extremely mana inefficient if I recall correctly.

Clearcasting

[Xykaru 1]

Clearcasting

Frost spec will also have clearcasting.

[simppi 3]

Frost spec will also have clearcasting.

yea but AM has 5 chanses to proc cc, unlike frostbolt

[simppi 3]

yea but AM has 5 chanses to proc cc, unlike frostbolt

Okey seems like its only meant to proc on the cast, most likely that makes arcane non-viable

[Patchi 4]

You spec relatively deep into Arcane as the Arcane/frost build. But Most high end raid guilds have one deep frost mage that keeps the winters chill debuff on the boss, making Frost Bolt far superior than arcane if just for the WC debuff. But Frost in general for MC and BWL is the better damage spec over arcane, and obviously fire.

 

Once you get to AQ however, all mages go Fire, and you just spam fire spec frostbolts in MC and BWL.

[фткyн 1469]

 

 

Val does a pulsing ability to everybody in the raid so casting frost bolt get's a lot of spell pushback lowering your dps.   Arcane missile can spec into 100% reduced pushback so they can spam spells better on this fight.

 

You dont need that talent, just spam.

[Patchi 4]

Also, take into account that Arcane Missles takes a debuff slot. Another reason why arcane isn't raid viable, there is limited debuff spots on a boss mob, and they are all accounted for using raid DPS increasing debuffs.

[gotmilk0112 10]

Also, take into account that Arcane Missles takes a debuff slot. Another reason why arcane isn't raid viable, there is limited debuff spots on a boss mob, and they are all accounted for using raid DPS increasing debuffs.

Pretty sure it still does damage even if the debuff is knocked off. Mind Flay works the same way; even when the debuff is removed, the channel continues and the damage still goes through.

 

But yeah, Arcane is sh!t simply because Frost/Fire are way higher DPS.

Edited December 1, 2016 by gotmilk0112

[simppi 3]

Pretty sure it still does damage even if the debuff is knocked off. Mind Flay works the same way; even when the debuff is removed, the channel continues and the damage still goes through.

 

But yeah, Arcane is sh!t simply because Frost/Fire are way higher DPS.

no, atleast in mc/aq20 you can keep up with forst as arcane

[Undertanker 88]

no, atleast in mc/aq20 you can keep up with forst as arcane

Nope.

 

Also if you wanna bring up 20 mans, a deep frost will out perform even better because of Shatter.   Will easily be one of the top dps on trash packs because of it. Faster trash cleared = faster instance run.  (including AQ20)   

 

So if your guild is not in AQ40 but is doing AQ20, you can still stay frost not problem since your primary raid is still MC/BWL.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Undertanker

[simppi 3]

Nope.

 

Also if you wanna bring up 20 mans, a deep frost will out perform even better because of Shatter.   Will easily be one of the top dps on trash packs because of it. Faster trash cleared = faster instance run.  (including AQ20)   

 

So if your guild is not in AQ40 but is doing AQ20, you can still stay frost not problem since your primary raid is still MC/BWL.

Have u tried? I meant on bosses, good thing with the spec I used is that you can get full imp blizzard for thrash.

As I said earlier it won't because of how clearcasting works with channeling, but I was able to keep up with the frost mages on feenix where it was working differently.

[Undertanker 88]

I mained a mage in 2005. Quickly made class leader cause I was looking good on the meters. I looked good cause 5 "arcane" mages like the one you are pushing for are easy to beat.

Proper specs have already been provided and answer to your questions given. I think gave you the 1-fight arcane mage could do better, Val. No need to keep asking the same questions.

It's math.

12 years mages have had time to figure out what is best, it didn't change yesterday.

[simppi 3]

I mained a mage in 2005. Quickly made class leader cause I was looking good on the meters. I looked good cause 5 "arcane" mages like the one you are pushing for are easy to beat.

Proper specs have already been provided and answer to your questions given. I think gave you the 1-fight arcane mage could do better, Val. No need to keep asking the same questions.

It's math.

12 years mages have had time to figure out what is best, it didn't change yesterday.

Oh I'm sorry I doubted your greatness almighty lord of the mages.

[Patchi 4]

You don't need to get sarcastic about being proved wrong. You were given ample evidence and counter specs to why Arcane is not as good as Frost in MC/BWL, or Fire in AQ onwards.

 

The proper response would have been:

 

Oh, Yeah that makes sense, I guess arcane doesn't get very good until later expansions. Thanks for the replies!

 

But instead, you word vomited.

[Patchi 4]

Pretty sure it still does damage even if the debuff is knocked off. Mind Flay works the same way; even when the debuff is removed, the channel continues and the damage still goes through.

 

But yeah, Arcane is sh!t simply because Frost/Fire are way higher DPS.

Also, the fact that it does damage after the debuff is knocked off isn't the point, The point is that it will knowck off another more important debuff when you reapply AM every time.

[simppi 3]

You don't need to get sarcastic about being proved wrong. You were given ample evidence and counter specs to why Arcane is not as good as Frost in MC/BWL, or Fire in AQ onwards.

 

The proper response would have been:

 

Oh, Yeah that makes sense, I guess arcane doesn't get very good until later expansions. Thanks for the replies!

 

But instead, you word vomited.

The only "proof" i got was "this is how it is, i know it because i know it, scrub"

[Patchi 4]

The only "proof" i got was "this is how it is, i know it because i know it, scrub"

No, there was plenty of evidence presented about debuff slots, and damage modifiers that makes the arcane/frost build far superior than full arcane. You just chose to ignore them.

[simppi 3]

No, there was plenty of evidence presented about debuff slots, and damage modifiers that makes the arcane/frost build far superior than full arcane. You just chose to ignore them.

Frostbolt does less base dmg than AM, how do i know that the frost steroids outweigh that?

[Patchi 4]

I feel like you're trying to argue just to argue at this point. If you want to play and raid as arcane, go right ahead. If you can't see the valid rasons why the frost build is better, I can't help you anymore.