Looking to tank/heal as pally, are these talents alright?

[glunn 0]

Hello, I'm new to vanilla!

Because I'm mainly going to be with a friend who is going Warlock, I would like to tank and heal, and Paladin seems like a good class for that.

I tried to make a holy/prot talent chart, any advice?

 

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#sExh0bZE0tIgz0o

[simppi 3]

Hello, I'm new to vanilla!

Because I'm mainly going to be with a friend who is going Warlock, I would like to tank and heal, and Paladin seems like a good class for that.

I tried to make a holy/prot talent chart, any advice?

 

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#sExh0bZE0tIgz0o

No, if you wanna tank you need consecration.

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#sVEu0xoxVhtI0z use this if you wanna focus more on healing, those prot talents should be enough to tank all instances pre-brd, as long as you have decent gear.

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#sVVuoxZVhtIxzmo use this if you wanna focus more on tanking, this should allow you to tank pretty much any 5-man in the game.

[Undertanker 88]

You can tank 5 mans fine with Simppi's first spec, but will need a good SP weapon with +30 Spell damage on it once your DPS start getting good raid gear.

 

We had a pally that spec the 30/21 for Sant buffing tanks in raids, and he was our AoE tank for certain raid situations.  Really useful for things like ZG Jindo room/Spider room, AQ40 Tunnel, BWL suppression room (though I usually did the whelp tanking on my warrior), Fankris in AQ40 (tank all the small adds while warriors get the snakes/boss) and those white bug patrols that split into many bugs after they die.   He would do many of the guild 5 man tanking when other warriors/feral were not available.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Undertanker

[simppi 3]

Holy shield is very imporant for threat though, also my first spec doesnt have Anticipation, you need both of these if you wanna do any raid non-aoe tanking.

[Undertanker 88]

Yeah but that is for raid tanking single mobs.   Damage in 5 mans caps at around 450 DPS compared to 1k+ in raids from equally geared people.   Don't need Holy shield for 5 mans, not saying it isn't great, it is, but not worth sacrificing having an actual decent raid healing spec to go along with it.    Tank loves Sant buff

[simppi 3]

Yea, if you're gonna be a "real" tank you're gonna want to go full prot spec anyway.

[killerduki 54]

Hello, I'm new to vanilla!

Because I'm mainly going to be with a friend who is going Warlock, I would like to tank and heal, and Paladin seems like a good class for that.

I tried to make a holy/prot talent chart, any advice?

 

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#sE0uoxZVhtILzVo

 

Fixed for you mate , enjoy your journey.

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

[meridaw 11]

What about getting spiritual focus in stead of 10% strenght? then you could heal your self a bit to, when you and your friend is taking down some bigger groups. Were you thinking about leveling this combo, or already 60? If your healing low level dungeon`s it helps having spiritual focus, incase your tank lose agro alot, so you can heal tank the mobs easy.

Edited December 9, 2016 by meridaw

[mrcer 8]

What about getting spiritual focus in stead of 10% strenght? then you could heal your self a bit to, when you and your friend is taking down some bigger groups. Were you thinking about leveling this combo, or already 60? If your healing low level dungeon`s it helps having spiritual focus, incase your tank lose agro alot, so you can heal tank the mobs easy.

If conc scales like it did on nost, then it would be viable while you level. But when you heal while taking damage; you're increasing your chances to receive crushing blows. At 60, this would only be viable in 5mans with decked out gear.

If conc scales with with AP then you'll want the 10% str over 10% int.

Edited December 9, 2016 by mrcer

[killerduki 54]

If conc scales like it did on nost, then it would be viable while you level. But when you heal while taking damage; you're increasing your chances to receive crushing blows. At 60, this would only be viable in 5mans with decked out gear.

If conc scales with with AP then you'll want the 10% str over 10% int.

 

people are too much concern about Crushing Blow.

 

Crushing Blow is not some sort of monster , it will usually do 50% more dmg when it happen and it will happen 2 out 10 times on low gear and 1 out of 10 times on high end gear.

 

Keep in mind we do have lot Parry/Dodge unlike Warriors and for that reason we will avoid more "completely full swings" where Warrior's Block will make them throw out of table Dodge/Parry/Miss % and that make them eat every possible hit , even if the hit was blocked , it will still do damage to them.

 

In overall fight this will result with Paladin eat lower damage than the Warriors , i was experimenting this on another server and shown something fascinating to see.

 

In b4 haters come out and thrown some of their BS .

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

[Undertanker 88]

Keep in mind we do have lot Parry/Dodge unlike Warriors and for that reason we will avoid more "completely full swings" where Warrior's Block will make them throw out of table Dodge/Parry/Miss % and that make them eat every possible hit , even if the hit was blocked , it will still do damage to them.

You serious right now? How much parry/dodge do you think you have compared to a warrior?

And you really believe that using shield block pushes our parry, dodge and chance to be missed off the table, and this is how you justify pally take less damage?

Jesus Christ....

[JaqTheMo 0]

people are too much concern about Crushing Blow.

 

Crushing Blow is not some sort of monster , it will usually do 50% more dmg when it happen and it will happen 2 out 10 times on low gear and 1 out of 10 times on high end gear.

 

Keep in mind we do have lot Parry/Dodge unlike Warriors and for that reason we will avoid more "completely full swings" where Warrior's Block will make them throw out of table Dodge/Parry/Miss % and that make them eat every possible hit , even if the hit was blocked , it will still do damage to them.

 

In overall fight this will result with Paladin eat lower damage than the Warriors , i was experimenting this on another server and shown something fascinating to see.

 

In b4 haters come out and thrown some of their BS .

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

 

Hey,

 

Regarding Crushing Blows:

 

The chance to recieve a crushing blow is not influenced by "good" or "bad" gear. In order to achieve a reduction on crushing blow probability a Tank would need more than 87,4% mitigation (Dodge, Parry, Block, Miss) without any abilities. This scenario is impossible even with the best items in vanilla.

 

The only chance to reduce crushing blow probability is by activating "Shield Block" or "Holy Shield". Yet a Paladin needs a lot more Mitigation to push Crushings of the table as Holy Shield gives only +30% block compared to Shield Blocks +75%. I think its even impossible for paladins to push them of completly (unless Redoubt of Course, but a Tank shouldnt be critted).

 

Regarding "Keep in mind we do have lot Parry/Dodge unlike Warriors" :

 

Why ? Warriors and Paladins both get the exact same Parry/Dodge from Talents (5% Parry and +10DefRating). Also warriors benefit exactly the same from all defensive stats like paladins. They can also wear exactly the same Items (Warrior even has an advantage since WarriorsTierSets are designed for tanking (High defrating + Avoidance%) while Paladins aren't). So where do Paladins get this advantage from you are talking of ?

 

 

Regarding "where Warrior's Block will make them throw out of table Dodge/Parry/Miss %"

 

No. Dodge, Parry and Miss are put into the combat table before block. This means that even with 500% block warrios would still dodge, parry and get missed attacks.

 

 

Regarding "In overall fight this will result with Paladin eat lower damage than the Warriors":

 

Well like I said Warriors and Paladin wear the same gear, have the same talents. But warriors get 10% DmgReduction vs ALL (including Magic) DmgSources. So why would Paladin tank take less overall damage ?

Edited December 10, 2016 by JaqTheMo

[killerduki 54]

The chance to recieve a crushing blow is not influenced by "good" or "bad" gear. In order to achieve a reduction on crushing blow probability a Tank would need more than 87,4% mitigation (Dodge, Parry, Block, Miss) without any abilities. This scenario is impossible even with the best items in vanilla.

 

 

BiS Protection Paladin will have 91% Avoidance thanks to Holy Shield (not talking about redoubt).

 

You serious right now? How much parry/dodge do you think you have compared to a warrior?

 

Paladin scale higher with Dodge from Agility than Warrior does.

In my comparison it was Tier Warrior vs Offset Tank items for Paladin.

 

And you really believe that using shield block pushes our parry, dodge and chance to be missed off the table, and this is how you justify pally take less damage?

 

Oki , i was wrong about Block sorry for that , still even if we talk about High End Gear , In case where Warrior focus on T3 which gives them lower Parry/Dodge but increasing their Block Value and Paladin focus on Offset Item that gives lot more Parry/Dodge where it doesn't increase Block Value in compensation of "extra 30% Shield Absorb".

 

But warriors get 10% DmgReduction vs ALL (including Magic) DmgSources. So why would Paladin tank take less overall damage ?

 

10% Dmg Reduction Warriors get is reduced by Armor , this leaves Warrior with 75% armor reduce only 2.5% dmg .

 

Damage income - X% damage reduction - Armor reduction = damage taken - Blocked Damage = damage taken.

 

As compensation to 10% dmg reduction we got Shield Absorb (% damage block increase by shield).

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited December 10, 2016 by killerduki

[JaqTheMo 0]

If a paladin can get 61% Avoidance(+30% Holy Shield) than a warrior can do so as well. I believe both paladins and warriors need exactly 20 agility for 1% dodge. So there is no advantage to anyone's favor.

The 10% damage reduction also applys to magic dmg which can't be reduced by armour.

Also 2,5% of a physical bosshit would still be 100-200 dmg.

Also saying that warrior tank can easily achieve armour cap is debatable assumption.

[JaqTheMo 0]

Also 91% Avoidance would still result in 11,4% chance to get crushed from a boss while a warrior can negate that chance completely.

[killerduki 54]

Also 91% Avoidance would still result in 11,4% chance to get crushed from a boss while a warrior can negate that chance completely.

 

101% Avoidance need to be immune for Crushing Blow (if i am wrong it could be 100%).

 

91+10 = 101 .

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited December 10, 2016 by killerduki

[killerduki 54]

If a paladin can get 61% Avoidance(+30% Holy Shield) than a warrior can do so as well. I believe both paladins and warriors need exactly 20 agility for 1% dodge. So there is no advantage to anyone's favor.

 

Reported on Bugtracker :

 

https://forum.elysium-project.org/index.php?showtopic=22572

 

Paladin 19.55 Agility = 1 Dodge

Warrior 23.57 Agility = 1 Dodge.

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

[meridaw 11]

Your only crush immune for 2 blocks using shield block, so you will stil get crushed when those are used. Think you also need more armor for the 75% damage reduction against a 63 lvl boss, 75% is for 60 only or is this wrong?

Edited December 10, 2016 by meridaw

[killerduki 54]

Your only crush immune for 2 blocks using shield block, so you will stil get crushed when those are used. Think you also need more armor for the 75% damage reduction against a 63 lvl boss, 75% is for 60 only or is this wrong?

 

Holy Shield for Paladins is 4 Blocks

 

Yes 75% is for 60 lvl but you can go up to 85% and be Armor Cap for Boss.

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

[JaqTheMo 0]

101% Avoidance need to be immune for Crushing Blow (if i am wrong it could be 100%).

 

91+10 = 101 .

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

 

102,4% is needed.

 

100% + 15*0,16% (This is the 3 lvl difference between the boss and the tank)

 

102,4% - 91% = 11,4%

 

Also 91% is with really great gear. Most parts of vanilla this items wont be available. Resulting in most parts of vanilla paladin tanks will eat 15% crushing blows.

 

Reported on Bugtracker :

 

https://forum.elysium-project.org/index.php?showtopic=22572

 

Paladin 19.55 Agility = 1 Dodge

Warrior 23.57 Agility = 1 Dodge.

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

 

That difference is quite small. Lets say you get 200 Agi buffed as a tank in vanilla wow. I checked the BiS-List you created for prot, the items give +66 Agi. Paladins dont have a high base-agility value so I think 200 is an okay gues.

 

200/23,57 = 8,46% (warrior)

200/19,55 = 10,23% (warrior)

 

Warriors get 5% parry from talents while the Protspecc you posted has only 4%. That almost evens it out again.

 

Offtopic: The source you qouted for that bugreport was a 1-Day Entry in WoW-Wiki. The original Author of the Dodge-Entries corrected that entry after 1-day turning all numbers back to 20 except for rogues and hunters. I'll link you the entry which has the numbers that wow-wiki stated for most of vanilla.

 

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Dodge?oldid=349028

 

 

Your only crush immune for 2 blocks using shield block, so you will stil get crushed when those are used. Think you also need more armor for the 75% damage reduction against a 63 lvl boss, 75% is for 60 only or is this wrong?

 

You are crush-immune until the next 2 attacks are blocked. Shield-Block has a 5 second CD. So most bosses will be able to swing 2 or 3 attacks in 1 ShieldBlock duration. But whenever a hit is dodged, parried or missed no ShieldBlockCharge is lost. The chance that a warrior drops his ShielBlock before he can recast it is really low and is getting decreased the better his gear gets.

 

You need more armor, but 75% DamageReduction is still the Cap. The vanilla formular is:

 

%Reduction = (Armor / (Armor + 400 + 85 * Enemy_Level)) * 100

 

vs LvL 60 = 16500 Armor are 75%

vs LvL 63 = 17265 Armor are 75%

 

The value displayed in your characterinfo is allways vs your own LvL. So at LvL 60 it shows reduction vs LvL 60 mobs.

 

Holy Shield for Paladins is 4 Blocks

 

Yes 75% is for 60 lvl but you can go up to 85% and be Armor Cap for Boss.

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

 

Yes, Holy shield lasts for 4 blocks but also has double the CD of ShieldBlock. So it evens out.

 

To be armorcapped vs bosses your charactersheet has to show 75,84% vs lvl 60 mobs.

Edited December 10, 2016 by JaqTheMo

[meridaw 11]

Even a block from your gear will not use ShieldBlock Charges?

[killerduki 54]

JaqTheMo

 

The reverse as you said was done by Dorenthas  changing Beaza information , later you can see the discussion.

 

Here is Conversation on "Talk" about the Reverse thing you talk about :

 

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Dodge

Beaze's change (Nov 30)

Beaza changed values I personally verified with awkward values, and directly contradicted various blue statements from forums over the past two years (among others),

 

At the very least, I expect explanation for these changes. --Dorenthas 14:28, 30 November 2006 (EST)

 

Well, I checked Beaza's other modifications and they didn't seemed as random as I first thought

 

I apologize for the quick accusations of vandalism, Beaza.--Dorenthas 14:40, 30 November 2006 (EST)

 

And then you can see another Modification next day after the Conversation which proved your link wrong :

 

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Dodge?limit=500&action=history

 

(Updated factors with Beaza's info, added TBC preview)

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited December 10, 2016 by killerduki

[JaqTheMo 0]

Even a block from your gear will not use ShieldBlock Charges?

No i corrected that. I just typed to fast

 

A Block will make you lose a stack, of course.

[JaqTheMo 0]

JaqTheMo

 

The reverse as you said was done by Dorenthas  changing Beaza information , later you can see the discussion.

 

Here is Conversation on "Talk" about the Reverse thing you talk about :

 

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Dodge

 

 

 

 

And then you can see another Modification after the Conversation which proved your link wrong :

 

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Dodge?limit=500&action=history

 

(Updated factors with Beaza's info, added TBC preview)

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

 

 

Yeah i saw most of that. But if you look into the "updated Version" which included Beazas Info Warrios still have 20Agi:1 Dodge ?!

 

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Dodge?oldid=349808

Edited December 10, 2016 by JaqTheMo

[meridaw 11]

Imo, both warriors and paladins are great tanks, but the lack of tire sets for pala tanking must make it hard to gear up during progression raids.