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Looking to tank/heal as pally, are these talents alright?

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102,4% is needed.

 

According to what?

 

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Avoidance_(attack_table)

 

The extra 2.4% may come from the fact that Dodge and Parry are subject to diminishing returns.

 

The extra 2.4% is also believed to come from fighting higher level bosses.

 

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Attack_table

 

 

Miss

  5.00% 0.01 - 5.00 Dodge 4.50% 5.01 - 9.50 Parry 6.20% 9.51 - 15.70 Glancing Blow 0% — Block 84.30% 15.71 - 100.00 Critical hit 0% — Crushing Blow 0% — Ordinary hit 0%

 

5+4.50+6.20+84.30 = 100%

 

Or : http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Attack_table?oldid=338686 = November 24, 2006

 

Or : http://web.archive.org/web/20070211120040/http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=9330

 

Patch 3.0.2 (2008-10-14): Melee mitigation stats also have diminishing returns.

 

Wowwiki Diminishing return and 102.4% is according to Wrath of the Lich King ++ Expansions , not for Vanilla.

 

Yes, Holy shield lasts for 4 blocks but also has double the CD of ShieldBlock. So it evens out.

 

From 1 target , Holy Shield will never fade unlike Shield Block it will fade many times.

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited by killerduki

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Yeah i saw most of that. But if you look into the "updated Version" which included Beazas Info Warrios still have 20Agi:1 Dodge ?!

 

If you see in the Conversation , he wrote some inaccurate numbers there either where he excluded the subnumbers like 0.0005xxxx and instead he wrote the simple 0.0005 .

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited by killerduki

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According to what?

 

 

102,4% according to defense/attack-rating difference between the Tank and the Boss.

 

For each level LvL-Difference the boss will get 5 points attackrating. 1 point of attack rating reduced the chance that the Boss gets parries,dodged, blocked or misses by 0.04%. Just like our defrating works, but the otherwayround.

 

If we now multiply 15*0,16% we get 2,4%. This is the AvoidanceReduction a tank recieves when he fights a Mob 3 lvl higher.

 

From 1 target , Holy Shield will never fade unlike Shield Block it will fade many times.

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

 

It doesnt really matter that if never faides as you still are crushable even with Holy Shield up. And like I said most of the times a warrior can easily keep his Shield Block up vs a SingleTarget Boss.

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If you see in the Conversation , he wrote some inaccurate numbers there either where he excluded the subnumbers like 0.0005xxxx and instead he wrote the simple 0.0005 .

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

 

Okay , so I read that conversatio now. In the conversation is a statement that Beaza has done many changes and that some were legit ans some were not.

 

I looks like you just copied the lines that would help your argument.

 

This is the whole statement of the original poster to this topic:

 

 

Beaza changed values I personally verified with awkward values, and directly contradicted various blue statements from forums over the past two years (among others), including things that can be observed like : each point of Defense increases Block, Parry, Dodge, and Miss chance against you by 0.04% (Beaza says 0.01%), or that WoW combat is table-based (Beaza says it's an if-then-else system).

Beaza, who has no contribution before today (no Wowwiki history) has modified today (or is MODIFYING right now) every combat-related article to show his/her view. I consider this vandalism, as he/she does not back ANY CHANGE in the Discussions but merely inputs data which may be, as far as I know, arbitrary and/or incorrect.

At the very least, I expect explanation for these changes. --Dorenthas 14:28, 30 November 2006 (EST)

 

Well, I checked Beaza's other modifications and they didn't seemed as random as I first thought (except one entry, which states that the Combat system is a series of "if then else", which it probably isn't - but that may have been said just so it's clear which event takes precedence over what). However, the values changed in the formulas of THIS article STILL seem completely random, and the statement about Defense (regarding its effect in increments of 0.01%) is applicable to mobs' Defense skill, not players' Defense skill. This was unclear in the modifications to this article, but it was stated more obviously in another modification from Beaza. I apologize for the quick accusations of vandalism, Beaza. --Dorenthas 14:40, 30 November 2006 (EST)  

 

 

This states that Beaza's posts regarding Dodge were completly random . Also this was his conclusion:

 

 

P.S. Here are the 1.12 numbers for base dodge:

Rogue 0.0%

Druid 0.9%

Hunter 0.0%

Mage 3.2%

Paladin 0.7%

Priest 3.0%

Shaman 1.7%

Warlock 2.0%

Warrior 0.0%

Now dodge per AGI:

Rogue 0.000689655 i.e. 14.5 AGI per 1%

Druid 0.0005 i.e. 20 AGI per 1%

Hunter 0.000377358 i.e. 26.5 AGI per 1%

Mage 0.000514286 i.e. 19.44444444 AGI per 1%

Paladin 0.000505882 i.e. 19.76744186 AGI per 1%

Priest 0.0005 i.e. 20 AGI per 1%

Shaman 0.000507692 i.e. 19.6969697 AGI per 1%

Warlock 0.0005 i.e. 20 AGI per 1% Warrior 0.0005 i.e. 20 AGI per 1%

 

 

There is no such thing where he excluded subnumbers. Again it looks like your making things up to fit your argument.

Edited by JaqTheMo

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P.S. Here are the 1.12 numbers for base dodge:

Rogue 0.0%

Druid 0.9%

Hunter 0.0%

Mage 3.2%

Paladin 0.7%

Priest 3.0%

Shaman 1.7%

Warlock 2.0%

Warrior 0.0%

Now dodge per AGI:

Rogue 0.000689655 i.e. 14.5 AGI per 1%

Druid 0.0005(xxxxxx) i.e. 20 AGI per 1%

Hunter 0.000377358 i.e. 26.5 AGI per 1%

Mage 0.000514286 i.e. 19.44444444 AGI per 1%

Paladin 0.000505882 i.e. 19.76744186 AGI per 1%

Priest 0.0005(xxxxxx) i.e. 20 AGI per 1%

Shaman 0.000507692 i.e. 19.6969697 AGI per 1%

Warlock 0.0005(xxxxxx) i.e. 20 AGI per 1% Warrior 0.0005(xxxxxx) i.e. 20 AGI per 1%

 

 

There is no such thing where he excluded subnumbers. Again it looks like your making things up to fit your argument.

 

I did mark them for you : (xxxxxx)  .

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

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102,4% according to defense/attack-rating difference between the Tank and the Boss.

 

For each level LvL-Difference the boss will get 5 points attackrating. 1 point of attack rating reduced the chance that the Boss gets parries,dodged, blocked or misses by 0.04%. Just like our defrating works, but the otherwayround.

 

If we now multiply 15*0,16% we get 2,4%. This is the AvoidanceReduction a tank recieves when he fights a Mob 3 lvl higher.

 

 

It doesnt really matter that if never faides as you still are crushable even with Holy Shield up. And like I said most of the times a warrior can easily keep his Shield Block up vs a SingleTarget Boss.

 

The thing you missunderstood with that is "Defense", with Defense cap you reach to the Boss level and beyond.

 

Each level is 5 Defense , Boss level is equal to level 63.

 

To Match the Boss level you need 315 Defense , for Crit immune you need 440 Defense.

 

Each 25 Defense beyond or above Boss level is = 1 Dodge,1 Parry,1 Block,1 Miss

 

I talk about Avoidance Cap.

 

Read careful Wowwiki Explanation why 102.4%

 

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Avoidance_(attack_table)

 

The extra 2.4% may come from the fact that Dodge and Parry are subject to diminishing returns.

 

Patch 3.0.2 (2008-10-14): Melee mitigation stats also have diminishing returns.

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited by killerduki

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It looks like the link is info for a later expansion of the game, talking about shield block giving 25%, but i guess you need 102.4% for vanilla anyway.

http://wowwiki.wikia..._(attack_table)

No , it's not 102.4% for Vanilla , read careful what does it say about extra 2.4% , 102.4 Is for Wrath of the Lich king +++ expansions.

 

The extra 2.4% may come from the fact that Dodge and Parry are subject to diminishing returns.

 

Read Patch Notes for that :

 

Patch 3.0.2 (2008-10-14): Melee mitigation stats also have diminishing returns.

Edited by killerduki

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It is 102,4%.

 

If you believe that 440 is the cap to be crit immune than you must also believe in the 102,4%.

 

440 comes from :

 

125 def for the 5% crit chance the boss has

+

15 def for the 0,60% crit he gets from his lvl advantage (1 Point of Attackrating gives 0.04% Crit, 0.04% hit and  -0.04% that oponent dodges/parrys/block ).

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So this is what I see in that discussion. And if I search the document for "xxx" it gets no results ?!

 

0768da-1481406100.png

Edited by JaqTheMo

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It is 102,4%.

 

If you believe that 440 is the cap to be crit immune than you must also believe in the 102,4%.

 

440 comes from :

 

125 def for the 5% crit chance the boss has

+

15 def for the 0,60% crit he gets from his lvl advantage (1 Point of Attackrating gives 0.04% Crit, 0.04% hit and  -0.04% that oponent dodges/parrys/block ).

 

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Defense

 

It further decreases the chance of receiving critical hits from any level attacker by 0.04% per point that the target's Defense skill exceeds the attacker's Weapon Skill.

 

This means +25 Defense will grant you an extra 1% Miss, Parry, Dodge, and Block. The formula is constant across all classes.

 

125 def = 5% Crit reduction from the base Crit that Boss have)

125 def = 5% Dodge,Parry,Block,Miss (higher than Boss level).

 

That mean if you are higher than 315 Overall def , you are more than Boss level and every bit of Avoidance is counting , 315 Defense with 100% Avoidance = 100% Avoiding crushing Blow.

 

There is no 102% , that was Wrath of the Lich king ++ due to Diminishing return .

 

What you wrote about 15% is nonsense , because every level count as 5 defense.

 

Boss level is counted as 63 where you need 315 Defense to become equal and your avoidance to be normal.

 

315 defense + 125 = 440 where you end up with 5% doge,parry,block,miss and Boss chance to land crit on you is 0%.

 

Any further Dodge/Parry/Block/Miss from Gear,Enchants,Talents,Base avoidance,Avoidance Ratio is just extra % and can go up to maximum 100%.

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

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So this is what I see in that discussion. And if I search the document for "xxx" it gets no results ?!

 

0768da-1481406100.png

 

The Screenshot that you try to show was not written by Breaza , it was added by --Karrion 19:15, 30 November 2006 (EST)

 

Scroll up and down to see as evidence that names appear after the comment , not before comment written.

Also you can see on the next comment , Breaza disapproving the changes they did for 1.12 Talents adding TBC Values.

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited by killerduki

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If there were diminishing returns in vanilla you would need more avoidence, since shield block gives 75% in stead of 25%.

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http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Defense

 

It further decreases the chance of receiving critical hits from any level attacker by 0.04% per point that the target's Defense skill exceeds the attacker's Weapon Skill.

 

This means +25 Defense will grant you an extra 1% Miss, Parry, Dodge, and Block. The formula is constant across all classes.

 

125 def = 5% Crit reduction from the base Crit that Boss have)

125 def = 5% Dodge,Parry,Block,Miss (higher than Boss level).

 

That mean if you are higher than 315 Overall def , you are more than Boss level and every bit of Avoidance is counting , 315 Defense with 100% Avoidance = 100% Avoiding crushing Blow.

 

There is no 102% , that was Wrath of the Lich king ++ due to Diminishing return .

 

What you wrote about 15% is nonsense , because every level count as 5 defense.

 

Boss level is counted as 63 where you need 315 Defense to become equal and your avoidance to be normal.

 

315 defense + 125 = 440 where you end up with 5% doge,parry,block,miss and Boss chance to land crit on you is 0%.

 

Any further Dodge/Parry/Block/Miss from Gear,Enchants,Talents,Base avoidance,Avoidance Ratio is just extra % and can go up to maximum 100%.

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

 

Wait ? You just said exactly what I was saying !!!

 

You say 315Def + 100% Avoidance = 100% Avoiding Crushing blows.

 

But this could also be translated into:

 

300Def + Any 2,4% of Avoidance (Because 15 DefRating add 2,4% Avoidance) + 100 Avoidance = 300 Def + 102,4% Avoidance = 100% Avoiding Crushing Blows

 

......

 

And there is no thing like diminishing returns in vanilla.

 

.......

 

In the bottom of my screenshot you can see that i searched the whole document for "xxx" and it didnt get any results ?! Also this is the only list of numbers in that whole thing you linked.

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Wait ? You just said exactly what I was saying !!!

 

You say 315Def + 100% Avoidance = 100% Avoiding Crushing blows.

 

But this could also be translated into:

 

300Def + Any 2,4% of Avoidance (Because 15 DefRating add 2,4% Avoidance) + 100 Avoidance = 300 Def + 102,4% Avoidance = 100% Avoiding Crushing Blows

 

......

 

And there is no thing like diminishing returns in vanilla.

 

.......

 

In the bottom of my screenshot you can see that i searched the whole document for "xxx" and it didnt get any results ?! Also this is the only list of numbers in that whole thing you linked.

 

As a Tank , i calculate with 315 + Def, since Paladin Tank for raids is Mandatory Def Cap.

With Def Cap we come with 5% Dodge,5% Parry,5% Miss,5% Block + Talents + Gear+ Agi = Dodge + Consumes + Spells .

 

As BiS Protection Paladin i have 440 Def and 91% Avoidance = 9% Chance only to eat Crushing Blow which is 50% extra Damage or let say 1 out of 10 hits.

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited by killerduki

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A block is not avoidance. It is mitigation.

 

We talk about avoiding Crushing Blow , Block is part of that "Avoidance", but i agree with you, it is actually mitigation since it reduce portion of damage depend on your block value.

 

/Kind regards killerduki

Edited by killerduki

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Once again this idiot is trying to reinvent the wheel. Paladins are not better raid tanks than warriors. If you want to raid tank as a paladin...go for it. Nobody here is arguing that it can't be done, but don't make rediculous claims that are total bullshit.

The crushing blow cap is 102.4, that means dodge+miss+parry+block= 102.4. This is a basic constant in the combat table until wrath of the lich king, please stop challenging it for no reason.

Edited by Jeetee

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Once again this idiot is trying to reinvent the wheel. Paladins are not better raid tanks than warriors. If you want to raid tank as a paladin...go for it. Nobody here is arguing that it can't be done, but don't make rediculous claims that are total bullshit.

The crushing blow cap is 102.4, that means dodge+miss+parry+block= 102.4. This is a basic constant in the combat table until wrath of the lich king, please stop challenging it for no reason.

Not my problem for your Фекал mindset.

 

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Avoidance_(attack_table)

 

The extra 2.4% may come from the fact that Dodge and Parry are subject to diminishing returns.

 

Patch 3.0.2 (2008-10-14): Melee mitigation stats also have diminishing returns.

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited by killerduki

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So the tanky tree I see you've opted for a few, in my opinion of course, talents in holy that could potentially benefit one more if applied as 3/5 %str gain passive replacing the 3 spent in Healing Light. 1 holy light crit with divine favor is an extra life whether it's doing 12% increased or not. Strength not only boosts attack power but also increases the amount of damage that can be blocked with a shield.  6%str bonus along with stamina and armor seems marginally comparable to the wars 10% less dmg taken.  Note Also that this perk will, in most cases, give you higher attack power than other tanks. With precision talent, a sword in a humans hands and 4/5 in 1-handed weap talent perk, the added attack power from the 6% or 10% if you chop a few more holy out, undoubtedly increases dps by a significant amount. This to me makes for a stronger overall force to be reckoned with in any situation be it pvp or pve.  However, given that prot palas are expected to execute certain support duties, I am perfectly aware that I could be mistaken.  Anyway, just some insight and observation on the power of Strength opposed to increased heal perk :).  Thanks ahead for any feedback of enlightenment or debate  }{:-D<--<|

 

Friedrich Nietzsche:

~  "And if thou gaze long into an abyss,

         the abyss will also gaze into thee"

       

             

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the wars 10% less dmg taken.

Just quoting this with explanation:

The Armor from Warrior Items, will reduce this 10% damage down to according the Armor damage reduction.

If warrior have 75% damage reduction by Armor ,the 10% damage reduction will become 2.5% damage reduction.

/Kind regards Killerduki

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