Is it realistic to go Disc/Holy for DPS?

[cryofsorrow 5]

I indeed am an idiot since I'll answer you again.

Mind Flay's debuff is the slow effect same as Ice Bolt's slow effect and gets pushed off really easily but the damage still ticks. Vampiric Embrace is required only on few boss fights and it's actually there for a reason. I have no clue why everyone is using MF/VE as an arguement when it comes to debuff slots. No Shadow Priest in their right mind will use VE unless it's needed because it'll harm the spriest's DPS due to aggro issues.

If Shadow Word: Pain does more damage than Corruption then it SHOULD be up on the boss unless all your warlocks are specced SM/Ruin. The reason this happens is because Shadow Priests stack more SP than every other caster class because of the high spell hit they have from talents, not that much because of Shadowform/Darkness. I admit Spriests have more % bonuses to shadow damage though. My guess is SW:P application might change with Ahn Qiraj or even Naxxramas patch but not sure yet.

I stay strong on Spriest DPS > Holy Priest DPS unless you give raidlog, doesn't matter what and how long of a fight.

PS: I love how you mention wasted debuff slots BUT you want judgement for bonus holy damage up on the boss. Unless you are in a guild with strange specs, that is. 10/10 post.

Edited January 17, 2017 by cryofsorrow

[Ram 11]

Smite dps formula:

((393.5+0.714*1.05*(s+161*0.9))*1.1*1.1*(h*(1+0.5*(0.1+c)))*0.95)/2

393.5 = average base damage

0.714 = coefficient (2.5/3.5)

1.05 = from disc talent, 5% more spell damage

s = spell damage on gear

161*0.9 = paladin seal with 90% uptime (0.9), would be more with the libram.

1.1*1.1 = 10% paladin aura damage, 10% from priest talent

h = 83% hit + hit on gear

1 = one times damage

0.5*(0.1+c)) = crit modifier + crit from talent + crit on gear, crit on gear is modified by (int on gear)/59.5

0.95 = 5% damage lost due to irresistable 24 level based holy resistance.

================================================

So much for the formula. Now about the gear (BWL / ZG content)

Mish'undare, Choker of the Fire Lord, Mantle of the Blackwing Cabal, Cloak of Consumption, Bloodvine Vest, Bracers of Arcane Accuracy, Lok'Amir & Jin'do's Bag of Whammies, Touch of Chaos, Bloodtinged Gloves, Firemaw's Clutch, Bloodvine Leggings, Bloodvine Boots, Ring of Spell Power, Band of Forced Concentration, Neltharion's Tear, Briarwood Reed

Together with Flask, Greater Accane Elixir, Brilliant Wizard Oil, ZG shoulder enchant (no 2x8 Libram of Focus!), 30 Spell damage on weapon and Onyxia buff you get 800 spell damage, 94% hit, 31% crit (5% base crit on level 60, 10% from talents). Put that into the formula:

((393.5+0.714*1.05*(800+161*0.9))*1.1*1.1*(0.94*(1+0.5*(0.1+0,31)))*0.95)/2 = 717.35 DPS.

With paladin libram it would be even 731.85 DPS.

 

Any questions?

 

Edited January 17, 2017 by Ram

[cryofsorrow 5]

Yes, do you have raidlogs with Holy Priest damage meters? No?
Bye then, dumb make-love.

[Ram 11]

It always makes me sad that the world is full of people like you who can do nothing better than shout loud and insult when they are out of arguments. Being man enough to admit your failure and learning from it would be a first step into adulthood and smartness.

[cryofsorrow 5]

So, no practical proof of your claim of 700 Holy DPS Priest. Take care now, I'll be busy doing 1400 DPS on my Spriest since the realms are up.
See? I can play this game, too.

Edited January 18, 2017 by cryofsorrow

[Ram 11]

[Deathlace 2]

Posters like cryofsorrow who put their fingers in their ears and refuse to engage in meaningful discussion simply reminds me why I don't bother posting on this forum.

You can see the math, and presumably understand it. Obviously the reason you won't see raid logs is because there's no reason to take a Smite priest to a raid over a Mage. Does that mean the DPS isn't relatively high? No.

DPS is all about math. Screaming "SHOW ME MUH LOGS" is idiotic. Nobody is arguing that taking a Smite priest to a raid is "optimal" but denying basic math is a whole other thing.

Edited January 18, 2017 by Deathlace

[killerduki 54]

Arguing with @cryofsorrow is like driving formula 2001 and  jumping from bridge high 2000 meters without any golden medal reward.

I've done arguing with him since he denied the base formula and math regarding Shadow Priest which was proved by many different spreadsheets even.

Tbh never argue with idiots, they make you look like idiot.

Let them be the mighty ones and let them preach what others should play, because that suit their egos .

 

In Topic = 5 Judgements of the Crusader+Librams of fervor and improved Seal of the Crusader + Sanctity Aura + all the spell damage consumes + Power Infusion + Innervate + Runes/Pots = bingo 1k or 1.2k dps.

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited January 18, 2017 by killerduki

[cryofsorrow 5]

4 hours ago, Deathlace said:

Posters like cryofsorrow who put their fingers in their ears and refuse to engage in meaningful discussion simply reminds me why I don't bother posting on this forum.

Oh, really? Posters in this thread are trying to convince me that a spec that's stuck with 1.5 crit multiplier and having the same spell hit as a Warlock and requires tremendeous amounts of spell hit will outdps a spec that easily gets hitcapped and stacks more SP than most casters at the moment?

"Nobody is arguing that taking a Smite priest to a raid is "optimal" but denying basic math is a whole other thing."
I already said that twice in this thread. I guess I'm not the one who "puts their fingers in their ears". Or in that case, eyes.

Jog on.

PS: Forgot to add that I actually read everyone's post very carefully before posting, and in case I'm wrong I will always apologize. Not my fault our opinions differentiate that much.

Edited January 18, 2017 by cryofsorrow

[Ram 11]

@Duki, isn't this seal stacking bug abuse?

[Theloras 108]

2 minutes ago, Ram said:

@Duki, isn't this seal stacking bug abuse?

No it is Blizzlike and confirmed by Nano that it is NOT abuse:

JUDGEMENT OF THE CRUSADER STACKING

Since I was able to prove that multiple ranks of the same Judgement are in fact blizzlike in Vanilla and not bug abuse, we are permitted to put up all 6 ranks of Judgement of the Crusader for a grand total of +631 holy damage (provided that the Rets have PvP gloves which add +20 to JotC).

JotC R1 +46 Holy Damage

JotC R2 +57 Holy Damage

JotC R3 +80 Holy Damage

JotC R4 +115 Holy Damage

JotC R5 +149 Holy Damage

JotC R6 +184 Holy Damage

If your guild allows multiple Ret Paladins, then I highly suggest that you stack JotC debuffs and use SoC for max +Holy Dmg to the target. In addition to this, I would recommend that you also recruit Discipline Priests who want to spam Holy Fire and Smite to melt some serious unmitigated and unresistable holy face - and don't forget, the Rets bring Sanctity Aura which add another +10% holy dmg to the Disc Priests' damage as well.

FYI for reference:

Re: Multiple Judgement of Crusade should not be Bannable

by Nano » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:25 am

No one has been banned for this and they won't because it's working as intended. This whole thread has run its course.
https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25589&start=30#p182280

[Deathlace 2]

5 hours ago, cryofsorrow said:

Oh, really? Posters in this thread are trying to convince me that a spec that's stuck with 1.5 crit multiplier and having the same spell hit as a Warlock and requires tremendeous amounts of spell hit will outdps a spec that easily gets hitcapped and stacks more SP than most casters at the moment?

Nobody is (or should) be denying that Shadow Priest talents are overpowered as hell. 10% hit is absolutely insane. The only thing I'm bringing up is scaling. I played a Shadow Priest through all of Nost. They simply do not scale off any useful stat. Hit? Don't need it beyond 6%. Crit? Useless except for Mind Blast. Spellpower? It's their only scaling stat and all their spells have horrible co-efficients.

Mind Blast scales at 42.8% of your spell power and Mind Flay is 45.7% of your spellpower. Yes, SW:P is decent there, but it's over 24 seconds, which translates to not very good values in terms of spellpower/second. That's really bad for your only scaling stat.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uYtIy7-hyCcvBQ30MiWUW9O4W9T7i54bVdYdIDThFvI/edit#gid=600475609

On the flip side, you bring up the 1.5 crit multiplier, but at least Smite HAS a crit multiplier. Shadow Priests only have one on Mind Blast. As you approach higher gear scaling, Smite will overtake Shadow damage if you completely ignore the raid DPS Shadow Weaving brings simply because of scalability.

Consider Smite's scaling. It scales off crit (albeit worse than Mages/Warlocks), scales at 71.4% of spellpower. This is already way better than all your Shadow spells. If you now add world buffs onto the equation, Smite will far outstrip Shadow because all that spell crit you get from World Buffs is useless for Shadow (Dire Maul, Songflower, Onyxia, etc).

Once again, Smite is very much inferior in a raid setting because they bring no useful buffs. If you are going for an optimal raid group, you need a Shadow Priest.

Edited January 18, 2017 by Deathlace

[Theloras 108]

1. Disc Priests have the highest base spell crit from their talents than any other caster and scale with world buffs extraordinarily well.

2. While they do have to get all their +hit from gear, Disc Priests do not have to worry about spell resistance in any way, shape or form other than level resistance against higher level mobs - this can be lowered with spell penetration however (ie: Don Rodrigo's Band when it becomes available).

3. Disc Priests scale extremely well with Retribution Paladins as I mentioned earlier - the more Rets you have, the higher DPS Disc will do.

4. They don't take up any debuff slots to do their damage (one at most if they use Holy Fire) whereas Shadow Priests take up FOUR debuff slots.

5. Holy Fire and Smite only scale at 1.5x crit modifier but Fire Mages are in the same boat.

[cryofsorrow 5]

54 minutes ago, Deathlace said:

Once again, Smite is very much inferior in a raid setting because they bring no useful buffs. If you are going for an optimal raid group, you need a Shadow Priest.

That was my whole point. In the average raid a Holy Priest won't be able to do well since you'll need judgement + sanctity aura and not many raids bring that. Again, if your guild is fine with funny/hybrid specs, fine. Also, Midoriko mentioned the thing about Holy damage and Undeads, so may be in Naxxramas patch Holy Priests can do better, who knows. But the claim that a Holy Priest can do 700 dps RIGHT NOW is bananas, that's why I jumped like that.

Hopefully, we're all good now, it took us only 10 posts too many to reach something close of a consensus.

And you can check Theloras' last post and his point about debuffs and Spriests and you can tell me again about how I'm the one that's not reading posts. :/

Take care now.

[Theloras 108]

why would mobs being undead have anything to do with Disc Priest DPS?

And Shadow Priests use 4 debuff spots

- SWP

- VE

- Mind Flay

- Shadow Weaving

If you aren't using 4 you're doing it wrong...

Never mind the fact that all 6 Judgement of the Crusader debuffs = +631 Holy Damage RIGHT NOW

Edited January 18, 2017 by Theloras

[Ram 11]

can you also use the 0/1/2/3 talent point versions of all judgements simultaneously? lol!

Edited January 18, 2017 by Ram

[Theloras 108]

2 minutes ago, Ram said:

can you also use the 0/1/2/3 talent point versions of all judgements simultaneously? lol!

most likely not but I have never tested it

[Ram 11]

If that would work it would be absolutely insane.

[killerduki 54]

30 minutes ago, Ram said:

If that would work it would be absolutely insane.

But you can 3 Ranks Judgement of Wisdom and make your Smite Priest less likely to oom ;)

/Kind regards Killerduki

[Theloras 108]

12 minutes ago, killerduki said:

But you can 3 Ranks Judgement of Wisdom and make your Smite Priest less likely to oom ;)

/Kind regards Killerduki

and every other caster as well :)

[killerduki 54]

4 minutes ago, Theloras said:

and every other caster as well :)

which also bring more dps.

Thanks to Retribution/Protection Paladins.

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited January 19, 2017 by killerduki

[Ram 11]

So you need 9 paladins to make even healing geared priests, with some points in smite talents, viable dpsers. 6 for crusader, 3 for wisdom. Takes 9 bebuff slots, but if it works you can fill your whole raid with priests/paladins/melees.

Anyways imagine 4-6 of these paladins nightfalling the boss. Dat uptime!!!

Looks like something that could be worth being tried.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Ram

[Theloras 108]

1 hour ago, Ram said:

So you need 9 paladins to make even healing geared priests, with some points in smite talents, viable dpsers. 6 for crusader, 3 for wisdom. Takes 9 bebuff slots, but if it works you can fill your whole raid with priests/paladins/melees.

Anyways imagine 4-6 of these paladins nightfalling the boss. Dat uptime!!!

Looks like something that could be worth being tried.

something like this maybe...

:)

[Ram 11]

Many Feral Druids and Insect Swarm. Ouch!

[Haitharn 2]

17 hours ago, Theloras said:

something like this maybe...

:)

What 40man are you 6 healing?