Is it realistic to go Disc/Holy for DPS?

[Adeline 2]

13 hours ago, Theloras said:

We have 2-4 Rets in each of our raids depending on who is able to show up. You may be thinking of old bugged Retribution on every other private server where nothing worked properly, but we are working properly here on Elysium. We have rank 5 and rank 6 of Judgement of the Crusader up on every trash mob and raid boss at all times and include rank 4 and rank 3 of Judgement of Wisdom if the other Rets are able to show up as well.

One of our top DPS is a Retribution Paladin named Smiter:

http://realmplayers.com/CharacterViewer.aspx?realm=Ana&player=Smiter

I myself sacrifice my own personal DPS by using Nightfall with Seal of Righteousness (SoR) in order to maintain the highest uptime on its "Spell Vulnerability" proc of any class/spec in the game now that SoR properly triggers weapon/enchant/trinket procs.

Sometimes, I even go into the Tank group and use my 8/8 Tier 1 Lawbringer set with Nightfall on healing intensive fights (ie: Vael) due to the 8 piece set bonus group AoE heal on melee strikes. It's insanely powerful and also I would say absolutely mandatory come Naxx to make the Loatheb fight a piece of cake.

TLDR - the more Rets you have, the more powerfull all of you become due to the stacking nature of Judgement of the Crusader and Judgement of Wisdom or Light.

So this guy is I assume close to full bis (I wont pretend to know your bis-list) and still only managed to push above 300 dps once in all of your recorded raids since relaunch? Generally he's hovering around 200 even with your judge stacking. Doesn't seem very good to me.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Adeline

[Ram 11]

I just did some testing on the kronos ptr (everybody can right now creating characters and adding almost all items) and the DPS itself you can deliver with only one paladin judging is really decent BUT - and that's why it would propably not work in an ordinary raid - without judgement stacking running oom is THE serious issue. With your mana pool you can last fewer than 3 minutes perma casting. However this spec can still be interesting for fights with movement phases where you can reg out of the 5s rule.

[killerduki 54]

4 hours ago, Ram said:

I just did some testing on the kronos ptr (everybody can right now creating characters and adding almost all items) and the DPS itself you can deliver with only one paladin judging is really decent BUT - and that's why it would propably not work in an ordinary raid - without judgement stacking running oom is THE serious issue. With your mana pool you can last fewer than 3 minutes perma casting. However this spec can still be interesting for fights with movement phases where you can reg out of the 5s rule.

3x Ranks Judgement of the Wisdom and mana issue solved.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[Ram 11]

2 hours ago, killerduki said:

3x Ranks Judgement of the Wisdom and mana issue solved.

/Kind regards Killerduki

I think you could also stack 3x judgement of wisdom on boss to solve the issue. Or even smarter: stack 3x j u d g e m e n t   o f   w i s d o m  on the boss.

What to you think about that?

[Smiter 9]

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=33181&Fight=7

 

smite priest pulling 500 dps on golemag. get fucked to all the haters

[Smiter 9]

14 hours ago, Adeline said:

So this guy is I assume close to full bis (I wont pretend to know your bis-list) and still only managed to push above 300 dps once in all of your recorded raids since relaunch? Generally he's hovering around 200 even with your judge stacking. Doesn't seem very good to me.

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=58595.

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=58595&Fight=7 440dps single target without world buffs.???? where have I not pushed above 300 dps???

And we only stack 2 judgements of crusader.

[Smiter 9]

15 hours ago, Brem said:

Just when I thought it couldn't get any better. I found Smiterr and Theloras preaching the good word of our lord and savior Jesus Ret Pally on a new server. I guess you're taking it a step further and recruiting smite priests now.

First off - Hey, nice to see you again.

Secondly - This thread is absolutely hilarious. 10/10 you guys are just so funny. You never cease to make me laugh :)

Thirdly - Best of luck with your crazy ret pally / smite priest guild. I think it might be one of the stupidest ideas ever but good luck. I think you might really be overlooking the negative impacts of taking raid spots away from real dps. Especially trying to give 4 smite priests boomy group spots over mages. Are you literally nuts???

This has got to be the best joke in the entire thread by far. You really outdid yourself on this one Theloras. The ONLY thing you and Smiterr EVER cared about was the dmg meters. You literally cannot convince me otherwise. The 2 of you are just so up tight about proving that ret pallies work that you obsess yourselves over the meters. All Smiterr would ever do is post meters and gush about how much dmg he was doing. I'm sure glad you guys left VG.

I believe your math though, for real. I get it's "viable." We're still raiding with a ret pally btw. He brings a healing set to every single raid and doesn't mind switching when needed and doesn't obsess over the meters. He's a cool dude and provides competitive dps. It's about the player, not the class imo. You can do amazing things in wow when played just right. And you are correct about a lot of this. But to fill up almost 1/4 of your raid with ret pallies and smite priests AND giving them boomy buffs over fire mages hindering their ignite stacking. In what world does a raid take 3 ferals and 2 boomies, let alone 5 rets and 4 smite priests? That's literally the most ridiculous raid comp I have ever seen.

You are spending WAY too many resources on buffing Smiterr. Probably just so he can post his dmg meters on realmplayers and gush about how good it looks when you literally build a guild and a raid comp around making him look good. But that's all you guys like doing, posting realmplayers links and screenshots of dmg meters.

Anywho, hope you and Smiterr the best with your new guild. Just thought I'd drop some insight and get this off my chest :)

 

Also, to whoever this thread is actually about and is attempting smite priest - good luck dude. As a dedicated holy priest, I've always played around with the idea of smite and shadow in my head but have never attempted it. It's never something I would actually do nor would I let any of the priests in my guild do, but I would be interested to see how you do it and look at the potential.

BTW we don't have a guild with nothing but rets and smite priests. We are in a regular guild that raids but just happens to have usually 3 rets. Was only 2 til I joined. So we only stack 2 judgements of crusader and 1 wisdom.

[Adeline 2]

8 hours ago, Smiter said:

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=58595.

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=58595&Fight=7 440dps single target without world buffs.???? where have I not pushed above 300 dps???

And we only stack 2 judgements of crusader.

Like I said, once in all of your recorded raids; and by that I meant avg boss dps in the full raids showing on your rs tab. I didn't take the time to look into every single boss. Still, I wouldn't flaunt a 290 dps MC run in close to full bis if your goal is acceptance for rets, because quite frankly it's still low. Especially when you consider that the raid has to spend two debuff slots on the holy damage. 

Keep on keeping on though, I'm not trying to downplay you personally here. It was simply an observation from my part regarding the specs efficiency. I'm glad you guys have a guild that is willing to try the ret dream out. We actually run with a boomkin now so we're not completely reluctant to hybrids and he did manage to pull 480 avg boss dps in a full MC run.

[Smiter 9]

14 hours ago, Adeline said:

Like I said, once in all of your recorded raids; and by that I meant avg boss dps in the full raids showing on your rs tab. I didn't take the time to look into every single boss. Still, I wouldn't flaunt a 290 dps MC run in close to full bis if your goal is acceptance for rets, because quite frankly it's still low. Especially when you consider that the raid has to spend two debuff slots on the holy damage. 

Keep on keeping on though, I'm not trying to downplay you personally here. It was simply an observation from my part regarding the specs efficiency. I'm glad you guys have a guild that is willing to try the ret dream out. We actually run with a boomkin now so we're not completely reluctant to hybrids and he did manage to pull 480 avg boss dps in a full MC run.

oo nice! can we get raidstats of that? Love when other hybrids do well

And average dps changes with guilds BC different guilds kill bosses quicker with less time killing boss= more dps. its why NOPE has ppl pulling like 1.5k dps is BC they kill it in 20seconds. And if a boss attempt is sloppy of course the dps is going to be lower BC it takes forever to kill the boss. Also you got to look deeper into the raidstats than just average dps on bosses. I pull over 400dps multiple times. but bosses like shazz/baron/rag really gimp melee and especially mana user melee. Also if one was to die on a boss then their overall boss damage suffers a lot.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Smiter

[Seiki 4]

On 1/15/2017 at 6:27 PM, cryofsorrow said:

Killerdoki has a brother I guess.

 

yes

2 brothers actually

1 is named cysthen

other is named theloras

feenix approved (tm) players will understand

[Fisher 5]

14 hours ago, Adeline said:

We actually run with a boomkin now so we're not completely reluctant to hybrids and he did manage to pull 480 avg boss dps in a full MC run.

Boomkins are essential to any raid, though. Retribution paladins are not.

Boomkins bring crit chance to other casters and a reduced chance for the boss to hit tanks. The only thing a retribution paladin brings is a debuff that oddly enough boosts the damage of no one but themselves and weird priests who try to DPS as disc/holy. Everything else they bring, a holy paladin is also capable of bringing (and does, if they're not noobs).

The issue is not "this class is a hybrid, therefore it is bad," it's simply that retribution in particular is bad. Arguably, the thing it's most useful for is applying Nightfall, so if you're willing to accept that a ret's DPS will not be the best but will have a relatively high up-time on Nightfall, then they're okay.

[Ram 11]

okay, now fisher starts trolling!

[Haestingas 30]

We had a holy priest on Kronos that screwed around with going smite dps in MC. He was able to output around ~600dps when flasked with his record being 746 dps on luci. It's fun to let your priests do that kind of thing because it keeps them engaged and having fun, but honestly having a full time smite priest just isn't slot efficient if you are going for a top tier raid comp.

[Smiter 9]

tbh you don't need the typical raid comp to clear raids lol. u can easily clear raids with there being a few hybrids in the raid.

[Smiter 9]

4 hours ago, Fisher said:

Boomkins are essential to any raid, though. Retribution paladins are not.

Boomkins bring crit chance to other casters and a reduced chance for the boss to hit tanks. The only thing a retribution paladin brings is a debuff that oddly enough boosts the damage of no one but themselves and weird priests who try to DPS as disc/holy. Everything else they bring, a holy paladin is also capable of bringing (and does, if they're not noobs).

The issue is not "this class is a hybrid, therefore it is bad," it's simply that retribution in particular is bad. Arguably, the thing it's most useful for is applying Nightfall, so if you're willing to accept that a ret's DPS will not be the best but will have a relatively high up-time on Nightfall, then they're okay.

Have I not proved that ret can do good dps? or are u just blind to raidstats? and also the raidstats of the smite priest that was linked?

[Adeline 2]

9 hours ago, Smiter said:

oo nice! can we get raidstats of that? Love when other hybrids do well

And average dps changes with guilds BC different guilds kill bosses quicker with less time killing boss= more dps. its why NOPE has ppl pulling like 1.5k dps is BC they kill it in 20seconds. And if a boss attempt is sloppy of course the dps is going to be lower BC it takes forever to kill the boss. Also you got to look deeper into the raidstats than just average dps on bosses. I pull over 400dps multiple times. but bosses like shazz/baron/rag really gimp melee and especially mana user melee. Also if one was to die on a boss then their overall boss damage suffers a lot.

Sure: http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=57582

There are definitely factors to consider but it still bears some weight and is nice for getting an overview.

9 hours ago, Fisher said:

Boomkins are essential to any raid, though. Retribution paladins are not.

Boomkins bring crit chance to other casters and a reduced chance for the boss to hit tanks. The only thing a retribution paladin brings is a debuff that oddly enough boosts the damage of no one but themselves and weird priests who try to DPS as disc/holy. Everything else they bring, a holy paladin is also capable of bringing (and does, if they're not noobs).

The issue is not "this class is a hybrid, therefore it is bad," it's simply that retribution in particular is bad. Arguably, the thing it's most useful for is applying Nightfall, so if you're willing to accept that a ret's DPS will not be the best but will have a relatively high up-time on Nightfall, then they're okay.

Sorry, but while we do have a boomkin I don't agree with you at all. Even considering the extra crit I think that it's overall a dps loss compared to bringing another pure dps. It does give some flexibility though since they can heal on some bosses which is nice for speed runs for example. Personally I'm not so sure how it will work in AQ though with kill times at least initially being alot slower than they are now. Insect swarm is also a non factor by the way, no way would you spend a debuff slot on it. With that said, I wouldn't bring a retri either in an optimal raid set up.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Adeline

[Brem 0]

8 hours ago, Fisher said:

Boomkins are essential to any raid, though. Retribution paladins are not.

Boomkins bring crit chance to other casters and a reduced chance for the boss to hit tanks. The only thing a retribution paladin brings is a debuff that oddly enough boosts the damage of no one but themselves and weird priests who try to DPS as disc/holy. Everything else they bring, a holy paladin is also capable of bringing (and does, if they're not noobs).

The issue is not "this class is a hybrid, therefore it is bad," it's simply that retribution in particular is bad. Arguably, the thing it's most useful for is applying Nightfall, so if you're willing to accept that a ret's DPS will not be the best but will have a relatively high up-time on Nightfall, then they're okay.

3 hours ago, Smiter said:

Have I not proved that ret can do good dps? or are u just blind to raidstats? and also the raidstats of the smite priest that was linked?

I don't think that's the point Fisher is trying to make. Everybody gets it. You're a meter whore and everything can be viewed on your raidstats *insert Smiters realmplayer links here*

Yes, ret paladin is capable of pulling competitive dps in the hands of the right player. That's not the point. The point is that raid spot is arguably wasted because aside from your pally buff (which can be brought by a holy paladin just the same) there is nothing else you bring to the table. That raid spot is better off being given to a healer or pure dps class that will do more damage. However, boomkins give the mages/locks crit and ferals give the melee crit. Both are arguably unnecessary as well but both can output just as competitive dps as a ret paladin if played properly and they provide more for the raid.

What is the point of bringing a ret paladin over a different melee? Similar gear and skill level - all other factors considered to be on an equal playing field - rogues/fury warrs should always out dps the ret paladin. Making the spot a waste because they essentially provide nothing else for the raid.

What is the point of bringing a boomkin over a mage or warlock? Similar gear and skill level - all other factors considered to be on an equal playing field - mages/locks should always out dps the boomkin. But the boomkin provides a crit buff for his group of casters overall boosting the total raid damage by a significant amount.

This argument is essentially never ending. Fisher obviously believes it's not worth the raid spot and Smiter QUITE OBVIOUSLY believes that not only is it worth the raid spot but they should even bring 3-4 rets. The point is the raid spot used on 1 ret paladin is arguably unnecessary and a waste because they bring nothing else worthwhile to the raid. I don't think either of your opinions will be changed on this matter.

Also, why did the discussion turn so heavily focused on ret paladins in a priest forum? You guys should go back to your thread and this should get back on topic.

[Roxanne Flowers 15]

5 hours ago, Brem said:

Also, why did the discussion turn so heavily focused on ret paladins in a priest forum? You guys should go back to your thread and this should get back on topic.

Simple.  Disc/Holy Priests use Holy Fire and Smite to deal damage.  There are precious few ways to boost/buff Holy damage, and for the most part Priests don't have them ... but Paladins do (Judgement of the Crusader).  This creates a synergy combination between Disc/Holy Priests focusing on using Holy Fire and Smite and either Protection or Retribution Paladins (Holy Paladins will be focused on playing healer as opposed to being focused on buffing Holy damage, ironically enough) since they are focused on either tanking and/or dealing damage.  Retribution Paladins have access to talents that will augment the Holy damage dealt by themselves and by party members (Improved Judgement, Improved Seal of the Crusader, Sanctity Aura).  Therefore, maximum synergy advantage for a Disc/Holy Priest (or a Holy/Disc if you prefer) is to be found in a Retribution Paladin.

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.  Individually, the Holy damage Priest and the Retribution Paladin might underperform ... but together they augment each other, and with enough of them in combination may even start overperforming relative to the alternatives.  The question then becomes, what is the right combination to reach that tipping point where the synergy between the two starts to "win out" over the alternatives.  This is a question of dynamic equilibrium and therefore has no hard and fast "for all time" RIGHT answer, since it basically comes down to an interaction of teamwork dynamics which are (of course) highly fluid and potentially subjective.  But it is a question that is relevant to the context of this thread of whether or not Disc/Holy is "viable" in a raid environment.

Next question.

[Ram 11]

Guys, some of you are a little thick. Sorry, but I'm struggling to find other words to describe it.
On the one hand, @Fisher and @Brem say something about bringing moonkins to a raid, which is totally dumb (moonkin itself does shit dps and 3% crit is a much worse buff than having another ret with nightfall at the boss). The moonkin will most likely do <400 dps and will buff the other four players' damage by roughly 3-4%. So even if the other dps in grp do 700 dps each, it's only 4x 3-4% of 700 dps, which makes 4*7*4=112 dps in the best case. And you want to be taken serious? Lol!

On the other hand smite priests are totally rejected.

Imagine your raid has 4 healing paladins and 2 or 3 ret paladins for nightfalling (the damage gain for the casters from nightfall is bigger than the damage gain a paladin gets if he uses another weapon). So you have 6-7 paladins in a raid. Now the holy paladins go for a spec like this and ONLY lose the god damn trashy shit holy shock, which is the worst oh shit button for healers in the whole game (if it's really an oh shit situation, fucking lay on hands!!!). So you gain let's say 1 judgement of wisdom from your holy paladins (because fights usually should not be too long) and 5-6 judgements of the crusader from your rets and the other holy paladins, plus you get a much higher nightfall uptime if all 2-3 rets use their nightfall.

Now about the debuff slots for a smite dps focused raid:

2 Thunderfury
1 Sunder Armor
1 COE
1 COS
1 COR
1 Fairy Fire
1 Nightfall
1 Fire/Frost vulnerability (Mage)
1 Ignite
1 Shadow Vulnerability (Imp. Shadowbolt)
1 Judgement of Wisdom
4 Judgement of the Crusader
=============================
16 debuff slots used.

 

This should make your rets more competitive and valuable and smite priest will be on par with t2,5 locks and mages (ofc except for the one who got ignite ticking). If your guild is not complete garbage, most fights should be <3 minutes so smite priests don't run oom. If they do, you can always stack 3x wisdom instead of crusader (which is also beneficial to all caster dps and even for healers who need to reg mana).

*edit* with this debuff prioritization you only need 5 paladins in total.


 

Edited February 3, 2017 by Ram

[Fisher 5]

9 hours ago, Adeline said:

Sorry, but while we do have a boomkin I don't agree with you at all. Even considering the extra crit I think that it's overall a dps loss compared to bringing another pure dps.

That would depend largely on the DPS you'd be replacing the boomkin with, and how well your raid's groups are set up. For example, a balance druid in a group with four warlocks will provide a significant amount of DPS to the raid from the increased up time of Improved Shadow Bolt, or four fire mages stacking Ignite. Also, if I'm not mistaken, the Moonkin Aura affects healers' chance to heal, which would be useful for dedicated tank healers stacking Inspiration/Ancestral Healing.

Perhaps I overstated their usefulness, but my point was that they simply provide far more to a raid than a retribution paladin does. Unless the raid group is designed around half the raid doing holy damage, they don't bring anything useful. Ram argues about Nightfall, but forgets that shamans can use Nightfall, as well, and actually provide buffs to the group that is useful to more than just themselves. Now, that's a discussion about horde/alliance, and doesn't really apply to priests, but yeah.

9 hours ago, Adeline said:

Insect swarm is also a non factor by the way, no way would you spend a debuff slot on it.

The extra tank avoidance seems like it would save a lot of healers' mana over the course of a fight, and higher avoidance means less chance of being globaled. Perhaps I'm thinking more along the lines of progression where every little bit helps. When the content is on farm, you'd care more about killing the boss 30 seconds faster than you would about keeping your tanks from dying, so you could refrain from using it.

16 minutes ago, Ram said:

The moonkin will most likely do <400 dps and will buff the other four players' damage by roughly 3-4%.

And the retribution paladin with likely do <400 dps and won't buff the other four players' damage at all... unless they're other retribution paladins and weird smite priests.

9 hours ago, Brem said:

However, boomkins give the mages/locks crit and ferals give the melee crit. Both are arguably unnecessary as well but both can output just as competitive dps as a ret paladin if played properly and they provide more for the raid.

At least someone gets it.

51 minutes ago, Ram said:

This should make your rets more competitive and valuable and smite priest will be on par with t2,5 locks and mages

At the expense of Shadow Weaving, Hunter's Mark, other procs, and a great deal of raid-wide DPS by stacking that many retribution paladins and smite priests.

You're basically balancing the entire raid around making you and other holy damage dealers look good (and by good, I mean still pretty bad, but good for your spec), when a real raid comp would be giving the other classes more damage and there'd be more 'real' DPS.

Anyway, I'm done arguing about it. In a lot of cases, I'd be concerned with telling people how to play so they don't make the rest of us priests look bad by doing things like playing smite DPS, but honestly, you're all Alliance anyway, so I kind of hope you do stupid things.

[Ram 11]

@Fisher: i give you credit for the increased Shadow Bolt uptime, but still the benefit is very very small. For fire mages the crit from moonkins is irrelevant, because how many fire spell hit the target per 4s has a much bigger impact than some % crit. Usually five bwl/zg geared mages should be able to keep the ignite rolling (for stacking combustion is the way to go). By the way especially for ignite it is of utter importance to priests with PI for the mages and a high nightfall uptime. If you play without flask, you usually crit for 2,4-3k with fireball with coe and fire vulnerability. If you have PI (20% damage) and nightfall up (15% damage) you will gain 38% more damage. Now take a 3k fireball crit and multiply it by 5 (each mage does one such crit) and then by 1,38. you will get 20700 damage, which is 4140 damage per ignite tick. Without nightfall and PI it is only 3k damage. And the nightfall does also affect the ignite tick itself, so the 4,1k/3k get multiplied by 1,15 again if it is up. But yeah, please take some boomkins instead of nightfall givers. 

 

Shadow weaving usually also looks very legit, but the shadow priest usually does low DPS and sacrifices 3 debuff slots (SWP, mind flay and Shadow weaving) to buff your 3 warlocks you usually have in the raid to summon and buff other classes. So rip shadow priest.

Hunters mark is the next item in your list of jokes. Also a very minor DPS increase for the 3 tranquers in your raid for one debuff slot.

The main points why I like the idea of 3 retri paladins in a raid is actually nightfall uptime and seal of wisdom stacking (the latter should be done by holy paladins). Both are extremely beneficial to a) all caster DPS and b) to all mana classes. I accept if you do not like judgement of the crusader, but it makes retris less dogshit dps, which is again gold if you plan on stacking 3 nightfall rets.

For smite priest dps: I tested the dps on kronos ptr, where you currently can make characters and add items. Even with medium BWL/ZG gear it was pretty impressive (around 650) with only ONE wisdom and crusader seal on boss. With some mana reg gear it is like 550 dps, which is not bad for a class that can instantly switch to healing, if needed. OFC all without flask.

 

 

[Theloras 108]

@Brem - Sorono/Simplest was a far greater "meter whore" as you put it and to top it off he was also a complete fucking kunt as a guildmate.

#JustSayin

Now why don't you go back to your complete dog$hit Vanilla Gaming server and leave this one where bugs actually get fixed and doesn't have a toxic playerbase comprised of about 50 people...

You don't see me posting on VG anymore about how bad that server is do you?

@Ram - some historical context for you - Brem is a former guildmate of both Smiter and I over on Vanilla Gaming and let's just say things got ugly over there so he's now come here to these forums to froth at the mouth against us.

As for Fisher, no idea who he is - never had any interaction with him that I can remember.

PS Ignite isn't even a thing here on Elysium anyway until patch 1.9 AQ is released - until then all Mages should be Frost spec - meaning that they only take up 1 debuff slot in a 40man raid "Winter's Chill"

PPS I swing Nightfall with Seal of Righteousness in our guild raids to boost every casters' DPS - this was a decision that I made personally - sometimes on healing intensive fights I also put on my 8/8 Tier 1 Lawbringer set to boost heals to the tanks.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Theloras

[Gardash 11]

Can a mod please, for the love of god, lock this thread?

[Brem 0]

@Theloras Glad to see you won't even address my argument due to old drama. I did not bring up Sorono at all either. I am well aware VG has sub par scripting, lots of bugs, and shitty biased GMs. Just because I am still playing there, because I love my guild, doesn't mean I am not allowed to play on Elysium and use the forums. I had a 60 on Nost and I am leveling on Elysium too just for your information. And no, I did not come here "to froth at the mouth against you." I've been maining a priest in vanilla for over a year and have been raiding as a healer in every expansion since wrath. So sorry for taking interest in a priest related thread? But don't worry, I went horde so I won't have to deal with the ret paladins.

Also - News flash, you weren't the best guild mate either. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions though.

#JustSayin

 

2 hours ago, Ram said:

For fire mages the crit from moonkins is irrelevant

Not sure how you can say that it is completely irrelevant. Crit has a significant impact on their dps no matter what, even if it's not needed to keep the ignites rolling (I know Elysium is only in MC right now but still). And you can get nightfall from 1 ret paladin then bring 1 boomkin as well. Best of both worlds maybe?

2 hours ago, Ram said:

By the way especially for ignite it is of utter importance to priests with PI for the mages and a high nightfall uptime.

Priests providing PI to the mages is not a common occurrence. My guild doesn't even have a single PI priest currently. At most a guild would use 1 because to use that spec is too detrimental on healing output just for a slight dps increase. Correct me if I am wrong, I've never played with a smite priest before, wouldn't they want to use PI on themselves? If so, that would make that argument irrelevant because they wouldn't be buffing the mages. 

I do agree with you that high nightfall uptime will increase dps significantly. But can't this effect be seen through just 1 ret paladin using nightfall? Also, most ret paladins would want to use an actual weapon instead of just being a buff bot for the casters. So you bring 3-4 ret paladins, force them all to use nightfall, which in turn lowers their personal dps, and takes up 3-4 debuff slots. I feel like you can achieve good enough uptime with 1 ret paladin using nightfall and only using 1 debuff slot for their judgement.

2 hours ago, Ram said:

but the shadow priest usually does low DPS and sacrifices 3 debuff slots

Yes, their dps is generally lower than all other classes. But sacrifices 3 debuff slots to buff the warlocks with a 15% damage bonus. Just like 3 ret paladins sacrifice 3 debuff slots to buff the themselves and the smite priest who is providing almost nothing for the raid since they will most likely be using PI on themselves.

2 hours ago, Ram said:

buff your 3 warlocks you usually have in the raid to summon and buff other classes

Why are you only bringing 3 warlocks to the raid? 2 of them are needed as SM/ruin to buff the tank groups with imp stam. The rest of them aren't hindered by this and get to reach their full potential as DS/ruin. Some of the best dps in my guild are warlocks. What are you replacing warlocks with, more ret paladins? By your logic with nightfall uptime, the warlocks can be receiving 15% damage from nightfall as well as 15% damage from shadow weaving and 15% self buffed if they are DS/ruin. Fully buffed, I would say their shadowbolts crit even harder than mages fireballs and have a shorter cast time.

2 hours ago, Ram said:

Hunters mark is the next item in your list of jokes. Also a very minor DPS increase for the 3 tranquers in your raid for one debuff slot.

True. Unnecessary. The hunters don't really need to be wasting debuff slots on hunters mark nor serpent sting.

2 hours ago, Ram said:

The main points why I like the idea of 3 retri paladins in a raid is actually nightfall uptime and seal of wisdom stacking (the latter should be done by holy paladins)

1 ret paladin for nightfall and then holy paladins for wisdom stacking then? Sure the uptime falls off a bit but you can then open up 2 raid spots for better pure dps classes and open up 2 debuff slots.

 

5 hours ago, Ram said:

Now about the debuff slots for a smite dps focused raid:

2 Thunderfury
1 Sunder Armor
1 COE
1 COS
1 COR
1 Fairy Fire
1 Nightfall
1 Fire/Frost vulnerability (Mage)
1 Ignite
1 Shadow Vulnerability (Imp. Shadowbolt)
1 Judgement of Wisdom
4 Judgement of the Crusader
=============================
16 debuff slots used.

Or you could potentially achieve more overall dps with a non smite focused raid with:

1 Thunderfury (Let's be realistic)
1 Sunder Armor
1 COE
1 COS
1 COR
1 Nightfall
1 Fire/Frost Vulnerability
1 Ignite
2 Shadow Vulnerability (warlock and spriest)
1 Judgement Crusader or Wisdom
1 SWP
1 Mindflay
3 Flex Slots Open - Extra Judement from holy paladin? Hunters Mark? (probably not worth it) Corruptions? (You are gimping the SM/ruin locks by not allowing room for their corruption with judgements, but then again the Spriest is too technically) Or even Deep Wounds? (if you have a fury warrior)
============================
16 Debuff slots used.

 

I don't see there being a point for faerie fire either honestly, but that's a whole different story.

So instead of your 4 ret paladins:
- You can take 1 ret with nightfall, sure you lose some nightfall uptime, but you potentially increase the overall raid dps with other debuffs
- 1 shadow priest to give the warlocks 15% bonus damage
- 2 open slots for boomy/feral/pure dps class/healer/MAYBE a 2nd ret paladin for more nightfall uptime?

So this would provide room for 1 boomkin and 1 feral if the raid wants them to buff the 4 top casters and 4 top melee. It also provides more debuff slots for the warlocks to use corruption to proc Nightfall.

And if you really hate the idea of a shadow priest because they take up 3 debuffs slots, you could force them to not use SWP just like you force the ret paladin to use nightfall. Hindering their dps but benefiting the raid more. Then they would only take up 2 debuff slots (mind flay and shadow weaving) just like the ret paladin (judgement and nightfall). Their dps is probably much lower but essentially the same argument. Then you would just have to look at the marginal benefit of potential increase in uptime from more nightfalls providing 15% damage for casters plus the sacrifice of debuff slots with corruption for judgements (which will only buff the paladin) versus the 100% uptime of shadow weaving and corruptions for Nightfall procs for the warlocks.

[killerduki 54]

Quote

 

Or you could potentially achieve more overall dps with a non smite focused raid with:

1 Thunderfury (Let's be realistic)
1 Sunder Armor
1 COE
1 COS
1 COR
1 Nightfall
1 Fire/Frost Vulnerability
1 Ignite
2 Shadow Vulnerability (warlock and spriest)
1 Judgement Crusader or Wisdom
1 SWP
1 Mindflay
3 Flex Slots Open -

 

3x Judgement of Wisdom

5x Judgement of the Crusader

1x Thunderfury

1x Nightfall

2x Shadow Vulnerability

1x Fire/Frost Vulnerability

1x Swp

1x Mindflay

1x Sunder Armor.

8 Paladins overall (2-3 Retri,1Prot,5 Holy)

1 Smite Priest

Maximum DPS.

/Kind regards Killerduki