Is it realistic to go Disc/Holy for DPS?

[Gardash 11]

Quote

Because there are a couple of folks in here whom are dead set on proving that holy can feasibly be DPS in raids, and the rest of us are trying to explain the many reasons that simply isn't the case.

But... why?  They're clearly wrong.  If they want to go build a guild that has smite priests, let them go have an empty guild.  Live and let die.

[Theloras 108]

8 minutes ago, Fisher said:

Hahaha. Okay, so you've got one niche fight where holy DPS priest is viable. Neat.

Good for you and your guild, I guess?

Because there are a couple of folks in here whom are dead set on proving that holy can feasibly be DPS in raids, and the rest of us are trying to explain the many reasons that simply isn't the case.

Oh, but I guess it's viable on Twin Emperors, so quick: Go respec! 

http://imgur.com/a/C1fix

He's the top caster on Ebonroc as well bro with no deaths at all showing.

Also, you aren't good at reading comprehension are you...so I will say this AGAIN:

He is playing a HORDE Priest so no Sanctity Aura, no Judgement of Wisdom stacking and no Judgement of the Crusader stacking and he's still the top caster DPS.

Get it now?

Edited January 30, 2017 by Theloras

[Fisher 5]

Just now, Gardash said:

But... why?

Why are they trying to prove it, or why are we trying to prove otherwise?

I can only speak for myself, but there's nothing else I'm interested in replying to on any of the sub-forums I frequent.

2 minutes ago, Theloras said:

He is playing a HORDE Priest so no Sanctity Aura, no Judgement of Wisdom stacking and no Judgement of the Crusader stacking and he's still the top caster DPS.

Get it now?

So get a group together and try it on alliance, proving your theory.

Get it now?

As the rest of us have been saying again and again... prove it. Don't just give us napkin math. If you can prove it works (700+ DPS and no overal loss of raid DPS), I'll gladly rescind my statements about it not being viable.

[Theloras 108]

1 minute ago, Fisher said:

Why are they trying to prove it, or why are we trying to prove otherwise?

I can only speak for myself, but there's nothing else I'm interested in replying to on any of the sub-forums I frequent.

So get a group together and try it on alliance, proving your theory.

Get it now?

As the rest of us have been saying again and again... prove it. Don't just give us napkin math. If you can prove it works (700+ DPS and no overal loss of raid DPS), I'll gladly rescind my statements about it not being viable.

I don't play a Priest, I play a Paladin (Ret for PvE and Reck for PvP).

And I've already proven my point in the fact that he is topping DPS charts as a Horde Disc Priest without Sanctity Aura or Judgement of Wisdom or Judgement of the Crusader.

It's called Math bro.

Add +10% to his DPS from Sanctity Aura then add +631 to each of his Holy Fire spells since it gets +100% from spell damage scaling at 3.5 second cast time.

As for Judgement of Wisdom, that's harder to factor in since it's RNG chance to regen mana but his casting uptime would be much higher with it up on a boss.

[Theloras 108]

29 minutes ago, Gardash said:

But... why?  They're clearly wrong.  If they want to go build a guild that has smite priests, let them go have an empty guild.  Live and let die.

Gardash, the math works - Disc + Ret is a viable strategy.

As I said above, @tippsarve is topping charts without any Ret help at all as a Horde Disc Priest.

Just imagine if he played Alliance side...

[фткyн 1469]

Shadow priest can dps til aq gear, when caster get a lot of +crit and +hit, like a hunters, they can dps while casters in prebis. 

[Fisher 5]

1 hour ago, фткyн said:

Shadow priest can dps

Uh... you're in the wrong thread, or you don't know how to read. This isn't about shadow priests. 

2 hours ago, Theloras said:

I don't play a Priest, I play a Paladin

Thus why I said to get a group together. Find a "holy DPS priest" and give them that sweet, sweet judgment stacking.

2 hours ago, Theloras said:

It's called Math bro.

It's called logs, bro. Maybe provide some, which is what everyone so far has been saying?

Before you say "Oh, but tippsarve topped DPS meters, blah blah blah," no, he did not. He didn't top DPS. He didn't top damage dealt. He didn't get 700 DPS. Show some logs proving you can get 700 DPS as a holy priest.

[Ram 11]

@Fisher: In my humble opinion it would not hurt you to be a bit more open-minded and think more out of the box. I can understand that you are sceptical about this idea, because you rarely see a Smite DPS Priest. Also using phrases like "show me some logs, brah." like a beat tick obviously shows that you just don't want to accept the fact that it's possible to do DPS as a Smite Priest. A very good and predicting damage (and healing) calculation in Vanilla is not very hard to make for some classes. This includes Frost Mages, Warlocks and Smite Priests. So therefore you can trust the calculations done so far in this thread. You also keep on ignoring that Smite Priests can receive a unique 600+ spell damage buff, which NO OTHER CLASS can obtain. You should check this spreadsheet and even give the thoughts in it a chance to be processed in your brain instead of instantly rejecting them.

You keep on clinging at the arguments that the screenshots provided in this thread do not provide evidence of 700DPS. At the same time you keep ignoring the facts that

a) it' a horde Priest, so no 10% damage aura, no pally buffs and seal stacking,
b) he does more damage than most of the other players in that raid,

and in the same moment you call YOUR arguments legit. Sorry dude, but having a discussion with valid arguments does not work like that.

 

TLDR: If the whole mankind would have a mindset like you, man would still jump on trees and eat bananas, because nobody wanted to try something "new" and "risky".

Edited January 30, 2017 by Ram

[tippsarve 2]

Let this Fisher dude think what he wants, not worth the time to explain something when he dont want to listen.

Besides there are so mutch more then being number one on dmg meters.

[Theloras 108]

-disregard-

Edited January 30, 2017 by Theloras

[Theloras 108]

6 hours ago, tippsarve said:

Let this Fisher dude think what he wants, not worth the time to explain something when he dont want to listen.

Besides there are so mutch more then being number one on dmg meters.

Well said my friend, well said!

[Ram 11]

What part of "can not be penetrated" did you miss? :P

[Theloras 108]

10 minutes ago, Ram said:

What part of "can not be penetrated" did you miss? :P

Killerduki told me and others that Spell Penetration works against level resistance - it's not worth trying to stack as Retribution though since you have to sacrifice so many other stats.

-edit-

Hmmm, you may be right - did some digging around for other spell penetration items:

Rune of Perfection
Binds when picked up
Unique
Trinket
+7 Stamina
Classes: Priest, Shaman, Mage, Warlock, Druid
Requires Level 40
Equip: Decreases the magical resistances of your spell targets by 20.

By alcy on 08/17/2008 (Patch 2.4.3)

Spell Penetration affects targets amount of Resistances vs. Your spells - and most mobs have 0 resistance bar certain special mobs. It doesn't do anything against the level difference of mobs you grind (there you need Spell Hit)

Last edited by alcy on 08/17/2008 (Patch 2.4.3)
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=21565#wh-comments

Edited January 30, 2017 by Theloras

[Fisher 5]

9 hours ago, Ram said:

In my humble opinion it would not hurt you to be a bit more open-minded and think more out of the box. I can understand that you are sceptical about this idea, because you rarely see a Smite DPS Priest. Also using phrases like "show me some logs, brah." like a beat tick obviously shows that you just don't want to accept the fact that it's possible to do DPS as a Smite Priest...

... You keep on clinging at the arguments that the screenshots provided in this thread do not provide evidence of 700DPS. At the same time you keep ignoring the facts that

a) it' a horde Priest, so no 10% damage aura, no pally buffs and seal stacking,
b) he does more damage than most of the other players in that raid,

To be more open minded? I'm saying (and others have been saying) PROVE IT TO ME. That means I'm totally open to the idea. I'm not going to just take your word for it. Show me some evidence it works. Show me a holy priest doing 700 DPS without ruining the raid's overall DPS, and I'll do this:

13 hours ago, Fisher said:

If you can prove it works (700+ DPS and no overal loss of raid DPS), I'll gladly rescind my statements about it not being viable.

Doesn't sound like I'm being close-minded, does it? It sounds to me like you just want me to believe whatever you say without ever having to prove it.

7 hours ago, tippsarve said:

Let this Fisher dude think what he wants, not worth the time to explain something when he dont want to listen.

I've listened plenty. You've done none of the same, apparently. I'm willing to discuss the theory with you, as I have, but nothing either of us says is going to make any difference when neither of us provide logs. Seeing as how you (and others) are the ones making statements like "holy DPS priests are viable," the burden of proof falls on your shoulders. Prove it, or I won't believe you.

I understand that theory crafting wasn't as prevalent in vanilla as it is now, but doesn't it stand to reason that at least one of the top raiding guilds in the world throughout vanilla would have figured out that holy priests are one of the best DPS specs in the game, and would have based their raid compositions around that? Doesn't it stand to reason that, throughout more than a decade, people might have figured that out and started making use of it?

Do you know why they don't bring holy DPS priests? It's not because they're close minded and don't want to try new things; it's because it doesn't work. Even if you're capable of reaching the numbers you claim, you sacrifice so much to get it. You're cutting 10%, maybe more, of your raid's DPS to boost the damage of one person. Even if you brought several holy priests to make up for the loss, it's simply not worth it, because...

7 hours ago, tippsarve said:

... there are so mutch more then being number one on dmg meters.

And that is another of the downsides to holy DPS. They bring nothing. Sure, you could off-heal, but that defeats the purpose of being there and stacking retribution paladins to boost your damage, doesn't it? So no healing, no buffs (except the same buff every priest will bring and the group would have anyway), no debuffs, and competitive DPS at best. Now stack on top of all that the fact you're sacrificing so much raid DPS and utility in order to make the spec even remotely worthwhile.

9 hours ago, Ram said:

You should check this spreadsheet and even give the thoughts in it a chance to be processed in your brain instead of instantly rejecting them.

Do the numbers in your spreadsheet account for things like Improved Shadow Bolt, Shadow Weaving, Winter's Chill, Curse of Elements/Shadow?

Do they account for talents? I'm looking at the base DPS of Frostbolt (rank 11), for example. The actual base DPS of the spell is 178.33. I figured that means you went ahead and accounted for the reduced cast-time, which is good, except you forgot to account for other talents a mage would pick up, like Piercing Ice.

• 515 to 555 damage (if I'm not mistaken), averaging 535 damage. 535 * 1.06 (Piercing Ice, not all mages will have Arcane Instability) = 567.1 average damage
• 567.1 divided by 2.5 cast speed (Improved Frostbolt talent) = 226.84 average DPS
• 226.84 multiplied by 1.1 (Curse of Elements) = 249.52 average DPS

It's a little more complicated to show how much DPS would be gained by Winter's Chill and other crit modifiers, but I think it's safe to assume that mages will simply crit more often, and thus their average DPS will actually be higher than that (even before gear). It has better spellpower scaling than Smite, as you mention, it crits for more, it crits more often, it has a higher DPM, and it doesn't require 6 retribution paladins to be useful; only one other mage for Winter's Chill and one warlock for Curse of Elements, which you don't have to go out of your way to get.

Your spreadsheet and the information within it (specifically in the second tab) is deliberately misleading. It's incredibly unfair to start your assessment of the spells by assuming some talents but not others, and without assuming any of the relevant (and always present) raid debuffs.

Before you say "I didn't account for Curse of Elements because I didn't account for Sanctity Aura and Judgement stacking," keep in mind that I said always present. Every mage gets these. Not every priest is Alliance, and not every Alliance raid group will have Judgement stacking. I'm happy to allow you Sanctity Aura, since it isn't that uncommon, but even then, it's for Alliance only, meaning it doesn't apply to every priest.

It also ignores the fact warlocks can Life Tap, effectively meaning they have endless mana and can DPS indefinitely, whereas a priest cannot. Mages also have mana gems, Evocation, and talents that reduce the mana cost of their spells. Priests have none of these things. They are far more likely to run out of mana than their fellow casters. 

Honestly, I appreciate the effort you went through to describe the inner workings of the class. It's more effort than most in this thread have put forth. However, it simply ignores every single request to prove it works. You can show me the numbers in a spreadsheet all day long, but until you show me it working in a practical situation, I don't care how good you make it look.

[tippsarve 2]

31 minutes ago, Fisher said:

And that is another of the downsides to holy DPS. They bring nothing. Sure, you could off-heal, but that defeats the purpose of being there and stacking retribution paladins to boost your damage, doesn't it? So no healing, no buffs (except the same buff every priest will bring and the group would have anyway), no debuffs, and competitive DPS at best. Now stack on top of all that the fact you're sacrificing so much raid DPS and utility in order to make the spec even remotely worthwhile.

I never even played on ally, and no i get nothing served. No innervate, No shaman, No Boomkin, Nothing really, the raid give me nothing. Im 90% on my own when it comes to survive and buffs gained.

This is what i do in raids, sure i can go really tryhard, iv done that too and its boring, i see ppl die. okej your problem "oh wait, that was the MT healer getting scarabs on him" When tryharding in bwl for example, im very often 5-10% ahead of everyone in damage done and dps, sometimes in big aoe packs i'm peaking at 1000HPS, my mages never die, never ever. they love me. Talk about off healing, it is 100 times better then healing as shadow. Iv done both plenty of times. The role i play is more like a filler role, im pre-shielding all mages and locks, a good example is twins, Yes i know twins twins twins, but that is just to explain the role in a long fight where smitepriests have a hard time to keep mana up. The worst fight in the vanilla content would for sure be patchwerk, you sit there and hope for rune or pot critt. But Twins twins twins... Iv seen us whipe plenty of times to know that our hunters have an IQ of 30 or so, that's a filler job more and less, we don't have dedicated healers for that, they should be able to kite all the bugs but no. Like i said that was an example, there will always be someone doing that job, i'm a smitepriest and iv always done the job very well. 

All that being said, it takes a certain person to like it and to be good at it, you need to be a nolife farmer to keep up the heavy use of everything possible buff you can get, runes are the biggest pain but also one of the biggest gains. You also need a good judgement of fights to be a good smitepriest, that you get from experience and knowledge. All this might sound very generic and yes it is. But playing smite takes it up a notch. It is a challenge, i recommend you try it.

Now i cba typing,i'm gonna lvl my toon up and join The Blooders, they seems to be at the same mindset and playstyle.

 

[Theloras 108]

nicely put @tippsarve - join @killerduki and The Blooders and tear holy $hit up - they raid predominantly euro times though.

if you are in NA you can join Smiter and myself in Globo Gym as we run 3-4 Rets in our raids and have been looking for a Disc priest to DPS with us - Smiter goes balls to the wall Ret DPS every raid and I swing Nightfall to boost all casters - here's his RP page:

http://realmplayers.com/CharacterViewer.aspx?realm=Ana&player=Smiter

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/PlayerOverview.aspx?realm=Ana&player=Smiter

[Ram 11]

@Fisher, I compared the cast time and the base damage of the spells. In that comparison all spells (Frostbolt, Shadowbolt, Smite) have got a 0,5s cast time reduce. Also I didn't factor in ANY damage increasing effects and talents for ANY of the spells, such as COE, Sanctity Aura or the 10% more holy damage talent from the Smite spec. I have even used the AQ ranks of Frostbolt and Shadowball so they don't look bad compared pre AQ ones.

I don't see the problem you see. So before talking some serious shit, better shut up, kid. If you WOULD actually look at the screenshots provided in this thread and WOULD read the numbers in there, you WOULD see it's decent. By now you should also know that Smite Priests are also much more viable for the Alliance than for the Horde. You WOULD know that if you WOULD have read the spreadsheet and WOULD have taken the time to understand it. But yeah, I see. You can't imagine something that hasn't been done already like others in this thread, who are open to the idea of creating something newer that gives a bit more room to have fun in Vanilla. It's just not worth talking to you any longer.

[Fisher 5]

5 hours ago, tippsarve said:

Nothing really, the raid give me nothing. Im 90% on my own when it comes to survive and buffs gained.

Yeah, because aside from Judgments, Blessings, and Sanctity Aura, your group has nothing else to give you. You already have Arcane Brilliance/Intelligence and Gift/Mark of the Wild, and every buff you can give yourself. You're not Alliance, so you don't get any of the good stuff you care about. Nothing else is of value to you. 

You mentioned three things they could have given you to help, but...

• I'm not sure what good a shaman would do you, really. Mana Spring Totem? Woohoo. Better spent on healers, I'd say. 
• The boomkin's group should be full of crit-dependent casters like... well, warlocks and mages, because your crits are less valuable than a mage's/warlock's crits. You could even put a DS/SH Priest or Restoration Shaman to maintain the armor buff on tanks from crit heals. 
• You could argue that it would be worthwhile to give you Innervate, since you're so horribly mana-inefficient, but at the same time, I'd rather gave it to a healer. Who gets Innervate varies from group to group. It doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't give you Innervate.

6 hours ago, tippsarve said:

Talk about off healing, it is 100 times better then healing as shadow.

Yeah, no kidding, but the whole point of being a DPS spec is to do damage, not to heal. If your shadow priest is off-healing, it's probably a wipe anyway, so it doesn't matter if you're better at it than them; they're not healers. And if you mean your off-healing is better than the healing gained from Vampiric Embrace, short version is no it isn't. They can do damage and heal at the same time. You have to choose which you want to do.

On trash, maybe not. Holy Nova is great for AoE. It's a good mix of healing and damage. Okay, so you found your niche: BWL trash! Yay!

6 hours ago, tippsarve said:

When tryharding in bwl for example, im very often 5-10% ahead of everyone in damage done and dps...

The role i play is more like a filler role

Uhh... if you're "often" that far ahead of everyone, you should be dedicating yourself fully to DPS. To do otherwise is a disservice to your raid. So far we've seen screenshots of your damage on Twins and Ebonroc. You were top damage done on Twins (understandably), but not top damage done/DPS on Ebonroc. You certainly weren't doing 700+ DPS.

If you're a filler role, I'd rather just have you be primarily a healer who tosses out smites during downtime. In fact, we call them "normal" priests. They do their job (heal), and on fights where not as much healing is needed, they Smite. What this thread is about is a dedicated DPS role for a discipline/holy priest. If you're a "filler role," then you've not made any case that such a thing is viable, or even feasible. Thanks for arguing my point for me.

6 hours ago, tippsarve said:

you need to be a nolife farmer to keep up the heavy use of everything possible buff you can get, runes are the biggest pain but also one of the biggest gains.

This could be said of every caster. That's what vanilla is like for most raiders: no-life farming in between raids. The fact doing so is what is necessary to make holy DPS even comparable to casters who don't do any such thing is what makes the spec so bad. A mage/warlock could just show up, give buffs, then pewpew as normal and do just as much damage.

Now when you start tossing in crazy things like Judgment stacking, which were rightfully fixed at one point and then unfixed for vanilla authenticity, you might start to see holy become more powerful. It was never intended that those things stacked, and it was never intended for holy to do competitive DPS.

6 hours ago, tippsarve said:

It is a challenge, i recommend you try it.

I don't see what is particularly challenging about playing a spec that presses one button (just like every other caster, essentially) for the entirety of the fight, using runes and potions as needed.

5 hours ago, Ram said:

In that comparison all spells (Frostbolt, Shadowbolt, Smite) have got a 0,5s cast time reduce. Also I didn't factor in ANY damage increasing effects and talents for ANY of the spells, such as COE, Sanctity Aura or the 10% more holy damage talent from the Smite spec. I have even used the AQ ranks of Frostbolt and Shadowball so they don't look bad compared pre AQ ones.

I don't see the problem you see.

Clearly. I specifically said:

7 hours ago, Fisher said:

I'm looking at the base DPS of Frostbolt (rank 11), for example. The actual base DPS of the spell is 178.33. I figured that means you went ahead and accounted for the reduced cast-time, which is good, except you forgot to account for other talents a mage would pick up, like Piercing Ice...

... Before you say "I didn't account for Curse of Elements because I didn't account for Sanctity Aura and Judgement stacking," keep in mind that I said always present. Every mage gets these.

Every frost mage will have these talents. Every mage will have Curse of Elements on the target. I was commenting on how it was misleading to present the base damage of the spell assuming some talents, but not all talents, and by not assuming the spells that would also be there in the first place.

Not every priest will have Sanctity Aura. Every mage will have Curse of Elements. Even if you include the talents every priest would have (Divine Fury and Searing Light), the base DPS of Frostbolt is higher than Smite. You said in your spreadsheet that Smite is better. It isn't. But, okay, not every mage will have the highest rank. Fair enough. However, the crit multiplier of Frostbolt, higher crit chance, and better spell power ratio all make up for that in spades.

5 hours ago, Ram said:

If you WOULD actually look at the screenshots provided in this thread and WOULD read the numbers in there, you WOULD see it's decent.

I did look at the screenshots. I did look at the spreadsheet. I did look at the logs. What I saw was a seemingly well geared priest doing okay DPS. I saw a niche fight where holy damage is very valuable.

What I didn't see (and what I've been asking for over and over and over and over and over and over and over...) is proof that you can do 700+ DPS as a holy priest without sacrificing your raid's overall DPS.

No, theorycrafting and spreadsheets are not proof. 

5 hours ago, Ram said:

So before talking some serious shit, better shut up, kid...

...It's just not worth talking to you any longer.

Great points. I hadn't considered that. "Anyone who disagrees with me is a child and isn't worth talking with."

Sorry, but I'm not interested in buying your salt.

[Lied 0]

Nice thread you got going there (TLDR), theory calculations and damage meters. Hybrid and alternative builds do not have a place in vanilla endgame. If you want to dps roll mage-warlock.
As soon as you make your place in an endgame Guild you will have the leniency to be able to try something like dpsing in weird specs. Until then stick to holy-disc and heal your way to a nice guild and some nice gear. 

[Deathlace 2]

@Ram @Theloras @tippsarve

You might find this useful. I made this for myself for the new server.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GThZJM5Vf7utUTQyS7lVDmEcASQFEDNb7nGax4FZ3Ms/edit#gid=600475609

For anybody who says you cannot play alternative and hybrids builds in vanilla, my only question to you is how difficult do you find vanilla? Vanilla raids are easy as hell and you sure as hell don't need to mix-max to the nth degree to clear anything. Perhaps if your guild is struggling with raids such as Molten Core, you have other problems to fix first rather than looking to alternate specs. For those of us who can clear MC with our eyes closed, there are many fun specs for you to try.

I hope you find the spreadsheet I made for myself useful and interesting. But this thread reminded me once again to avoid posting on forums.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Deathlace

[Maxvla 0]

Theloras seems to think an Alliance priest just gets handed all these buffs and debuffs to work with, when the reality is a proper raid will feature none of them. Even with 16 debuff slots, making room for multiple judgements of the crusader is an improper use of the slots. Simply having a ret paladin in the group is a rarity (more like one being allowed in), much less 3-4. The paladins would do more dps as rogues or warriors and the smite priest would do more dps as a mage or warlock, and all concerned would do it with much less fuss and farming. Busting your balls to make something inferior nearly as good as something else that requires very little work just seems inefficient. Putting that sort of effort into the better class would result in dps that the inferior spec can't touch even if the stars aligned.

[Ram 11]

@Fisher go to any vanilla database and search for the base damage of FB SB and SM max. rank and divide them by their talentet cast time. Dunno what you are doing when you compare base damage and dps. Also you're not a kid because you disagree with me, but you keep being reluctantly annoying searching for arguments to play down smite dps.

[tippsarve 2]

9 hours ago, Fisher said:

Yeah, because aside from Judgments, Blessings, and Sanctity Aura, your group has nothing else to give you. You already have Arcane Brilliance/Intelligence and Gift/Mark of the Wild, and every buff you can give yourself. You're not Alliance, so you don't get any of the good stuff you care about. Nothing else is of value to you. 

You mentioned three things they could have given you to help, but...

• I'm not sure what good a shaman would do you, really. Mana Spring Totem? Woohoo. Better spent on healers, I'd say. 
• The boomkin's group should be full of crit-dependent casters like... well, warlocks and mages, because your crits are less valuable than a mage's/warlock's crits. You could even put a DS/SH Priest or Restoration Shaman to maintain the armor buff on tanks from crit heals. 
• You could argue that it would be worthwhile to give you Innervate, since you're so horribly mana-inefficient, but at the same time, I'd rather gave it to a healer. Who gets Innervate varies from group to group. It doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't give you Innervate.

You see, this is your problem, you are a smart guy i give you that, but you totally lack empathy and realism. Not everything is what it is on paper, you never have 8 shaman even if you would love to have it in a raid, we are a melee heavy raid, about 90% of the times. Ofc we give all our melees windfury, then we divide shaman to other groups, iv had plenty opportunities to place myself in a shaman group. But i'm not egoistic like that. All specs have downsides and upsides, im very well aware of the limitations of disc as a specc, yes i know it better then you. But it is not worth the time to tell you everything there is to know, clearly you don't want to know.

Yes, filler role means, what it doas, some fight are good with one extra healer and some might be good with a dps. I dont see how you do it in your raids, but im sure it cant go very smooth if you aren't adaptable, you seems to forget that we play on a private server with a 12 year old content. And still ppl try out new things everyday, some of them might be really good. Abit like real life.

 

So i dont see the point of your posts, more then trolling or trying to tilt ppl, im very tilt. Happy ? :)

Being humble gets you very far, but this is the internet. Good thing there is a block function.

Should i need to use it ? i dont want to, but you decide.

Just a short thing about innervate, ofc it would be alot better to give a class/spec that stacks spirit. I got around 350 spirit buffed, innervate is decent for smite.

 

Sorry, im sure you spent alot of time answering everyone including me, would be abit disrespectful to not read it all.

But i cant be asked any more, CBA.

 

If anyone els have some questions regarding disc dps, you are more then welcome to PM me.

[Theloras 108]

7 hours ago, Maxvla said:

Theloras seems to think an Alliance priest just gets handed all these buffs and debuffs to work with, when the reality is a proper raid will feature none of them. Even with 16 debuff slots, making room for multiple judgements of the crusader is an improper use of the slots. Simply having a ret paladin in the group is a rarity (more like one being allowed in), much less 3-4. The paladins would do more dps as rogues or warriors and the smite priest would do more dps as a mage or warlock, and all concerned would do it with much less fuss and farming. Busting your balls to make something inferior nearly as good as something else that requires very little work just seems inefficient. Putting that sort of effort into the better class would result in dps that the inferior spec can't touch even if the stars aligned.

We have 2-4 Rets in each of our raids depending on who is able to show up. You may be thinking of old bugged Retribution on every other private server where nothing worked properly, but we are working properly here on Elysium. We have rank 5 and rank 6 of Judgement of the Crusader up on every trash mob and raid boss at all times and include rank 4 and rank 3 of Judgement of Wisdom if the other Rets are able to show up as well.

One of our top DPS is a Retribution Paladin named Smiter:

http://realmplayers.com/CharacterViewer.aspx?realm=Ana&player=Smiter

I myself sacrifice my own personal DPS by using Nightfall with Seal of Righteousness (SoR) in order to maintain the highest uptime on its "Spell Vulnerability" proc of any class/spec in the game now that SoR properly triggers weapon/enchant/trinket procs.

Sometimes, I even go into the Tank group and use my 8/8 Tier 1 Lawbringer set with Nightfall on healing intensive fights (ie: Vael) due to the 8 piece set bonus group AoE heal on melee strikes. It's insanely powerful and also I would say absolutely mandatory come Naxx to make the Loatheb fight a piece of cake.

TLDR - the more Rets you have, the more powerfull all of you become due to the stacking nature of Judgement of the Crusader and Judgement of Wisdom or Light.

[Brem 0]

Just when I thought it couldn't get any better. I found Smiterr and Theloras preaching the good word of our lord and savior Jesus Ret Pally on a new server. I guess you're taking it a step further and recruiting smite priests now.

First off - Hey, nice to see you again.

Secondly - This thread is absolutely hilarious. 10/10 you guys are just so funny. You never cease to make me laugh :)

Thirdly - Best of luck with your crazy ret pally / smite priest guild. I think it might be one of the stupidest ideas ever but good luck. I think you might really be overlooking the negative impacts of taking raid spots away from real dps. Especially trying to give 4 smite priests boomy group spots over mages. Are you literally nuts???

On 1/30/2017 at 6:49 AM, tippsarve said:

Let this Fisher dude think what he wants, not worth the time to explain something when he dont want to listen.

Besides there are so mutch more then being number one on dmg meters.

On 1/30/2017 at 1:13 PM, Theloras said:

Well said my friend, well said!

This has got to be the best joke in the entire thread by far. You really outdid yourself on this one Theloras. The ONLY thing you and Smiterr EVER cared about was the dmg meters. You literally cannot convince me otherwise. The 2 of you are just so up tight about proving that ret pallies work that you obsess yourselves over the meters. All Smiterr would ever do is post meters and gush about how much dmg he was doing. I'm sure glad you guys left VG.

I believe your math though, for real. I get it's "viable." We're still raiding with a ret pally btw. He brings a healing set to every single raid and doesn't mind switching when needed and doesn't obsess over the meters. He's a cool dude and provides competitive dps. It's about the player, not the class imo. You can do amazing things in wow when played just right. And you are correct about a lot of this. But to fill up almost 1/4 of your raid with ret pallies and smite priests AND giving them boomy buffs over fire mages hindering their ignite stacking. In what world does a raid take 3 ferals and 2 boomies, let alone 5 rets and 4 smite priests? That's literally the most ridiculous raid comp I have ever seen.

You are spending WAY too many resources on buffing Smiterr. Probably just so he can post his dmg meters on realmplayers and gush about how good it looks when you literally build a guild and a raid comp around making him look good. But that's all you guys like doing, posting realmplayers links and screenshots of dmg meters.

Anywho, hope you and Smiterr the best with your new guild. Just thought I'd drop some insight and get this off my chest :)

 

Also, to whoever this thread is actually about and is attempting smite priest - good luck dude. As a dedicated holy priest, I've always played around with the idea of smite and shadow in my head but have never attempted it. It's never something I would actually do nor would I let any of the priests in my guild do, but I would be interested to see how you do it and look at the potential.