T1 8/8 vs T2 8/8

[Imao 0]

Ok so ive heard t1 is better than t2 if you have 2 or more t2 hunters in the raid

Is this true, how big is the dps upgrade if so?

 

[Fisher 5]

If I'm not mistaken...

Tier 1 has:

• 189 Agility
• 4% Crit
• 3% Hit
• 15% Multi-shot and Volley damage

Tier 2 has:

• 208 Agility
• 5% Crit
• 2% Hit
• 20% Ranged Attack Power increase to Aspect of the Hawk
• Chance to apply Expose Weakness debuff to the target, increasing Ranged Attack Power against that target by 450

I'm fairly certain the 8 set bonus in tier 2 takes up a debuff slot. I'm not sure if that means you can reliably consider it in a raiding environment. I've never heard of raid groups reserving a debuff slot for Expose Weakness. Let's just assume for simplicity's sake that you can rely on it having a debuff slot.

Seems to me that Tier 2 is just flat out better. I've not done the exact math, but even if you were doing a perfect rotation with Multi-shot, the damage your auto attacks gain is quite a bit, and you're a better benefit to the raid.

Not sure who told you tier 1 is better, but it seems strange to me. Maybe in multi-target fights. 

[Pwnjin 1]

Considering the T1 8/8 bonus you can see that as ~ +2% dmg increase because Multi-shot does around 15% dmg in the fights (that bonus is huge for PvP tho).

The stats from T2 +/- make up for that loss imo even w/o considering the 8/8 T2 bonus.

As far as i understand, the downside of T2 8/8 bonus is the fact that this debuff has one of the lowest debuff priorities and gets knocked off from mobs/bosses by Warrior's bleeds for example, which means its unreliable at best. Other than that, 450 RAP is OP for hunters.

[Fisher 5]

On 1/10/2017 at 9:51 AM, Pwnjin said:

As far as i understand, the downside of T2 8/8 bonus is the fact that this debuff has one of the lowest debuff priorities and gets knocked off from mobs/bosses by Warrior's bleeds for example, which means its unreliable at best. Other than that, 450 RAP is OP for hunters.

I think if you could rely on a couple of 8/8 T2 hunters keeping the debuff up for a decent amount of time, it's worth reserving a debuff slot for it.

In regards to raids, you probably won't see warriors with Deep Wounds. The fact it takes up an important debuff slot for a minuscule personal DPS gain means any decent warrior will know not to pick it up, except for PvP and dungeons. I suppose in vanilla you can expect that not every warrior is going to be "decent," so I understand saying it's unreliable.

[Drakbak 3]

16 hours ago, Fisher said:

In regards to raids, you probably won't see warriors with Deep Wounds. The fact it takes up an important debuff slot for a minuscule personal DPS gain means any decent warrior will know not to pick it up, except for PvP and dungeons. I suppose in vanilla you can expect that not every warrior is going to be "decent," so I understand saying it's unreliable.

Warriors don't spec Deep Wounds for the bleed effect.  They spec into it because it's required in order to spec into Impale, which provides a 20% damage bonus for critical strikes.  That's like telling a hunter to skip Mortal Shots.

[Fisher 5]

16 hours ago, Drakbak said:

Warriors don't spec Deep Wounds for the bleed effect.  They spec into it because it's required in order to spec into Impale, which provides a 20% damage bonus for critical strikes.  That's like telling a hunter to skip Mortal Shots.

I'm aware it's a prerequisite, but the fact it takes up a debuff slot usually means they don't take it, no? Maybe I'm wrong; I don't play a DPS warrior.

The difference between Mortal Shots and Impale is that Mortal Shots applies to critical strike damage from ALL attacks, including abilities and auto attacks. Impale only affects abilities. Mortal Shots also gives 10% more critical strike damage AND doesn't have a terrible prerequisite that wastes a debuff slot.

[Drakbak 3]

As far as i know, deep wounds is on the tier of lowest-priority in terms of which debuffs push off others.  The problem is that Expose weakness is on that same tier when it really should have been given a higher priority.  Obviously the two talents have differences, and I'm not debating that.  But warriors view it as a must-have similar to how hunters view it as a must-have.

But our guild doesn't have dps issues, so we don't min/max debuff slots.  We get the important stuff up and things fall over pretty fast.  We aren't pushing for clear records or whatever.

[Yoga 3]

Hard Debuffs:
Sunder Armor/Expose Armor
Curse of Recklessness
Curse of Elements
Curse of Shadow
Curse of Tongues/Mind-numbing Poison
Thunderclap/Thunderfury BOTH debuffs
Demo shout
Hunter's mark
Fairy Fire
Judgement of Wisdom/Light
Disarm

Medium debuffs:
Spell Vulnerability (Nightfall)
Fire Vulnerability (Imp scorch)
Frost Vulnerability (Winter Chill)
Shadow Vulnerability ( Shadow weaving)
Shadow Vulnerability ( imp. Shadowbolt)
Ignite
Vampiric Embrace
Mortal Strike
Deadly Poison
Serpent Sting
Deep Wounds

 

And yes every dps warrior has Deep wounds talented it is mandatory and must take so you get Impale. Medium debuffs get's knocked off by the harder ones. I don't actually know about the Expose Weakness but i would assume it's also Medium debuff.

[Fisher 5]

If there's a chance Deep Wounds would be knocking off important debuffs like Winter's Chill/Improved Scorch, Shadow Weaving, Improved Shadowbolt, and Nightfall, I'd pretty much never allow any warrior to take Deep Wounds. Their 20% increased critical strike damage on abilities and the tiny personal DPS gain they get from those talents takes a back seat to the phenomenal raid DPS gain the other debuffs provide.

A look at some of the logs out there will show that warriors who pick Deep Wounds + Impale do gain some DPS, but it's not nearly as significant as many believe. That said, I think even with all of those debuffs present, you'll still have room for Deep Wounds as long as no one has any other effects/DoTs.

I think the DPS gain from effects like Nightfall and Expose Weakness heavily outweigh Deep Wounds, and the amount of damage lost by having those debuffs consumed for some pathetic bleed damage would be substantial, and I'd much rather the warriors' DPS suffer a little bit to leave room for important debuffs like the 8/8 T2 bonus for hunters.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Fisher

[Pwnjin 1]

Fisher, deep wounds don't knock out anything which is higher than them in the list posted (atleast that seemed to be true for the whole time ive played; though since im playing on the PvE server we're on 8 debuff slots only and i can't be 100% sure).

Also i think that it's in the raid interest to have warriors 220% dmg crits rather than +450 RAP for hunters (that's assuming you utilize 2-3 hunters and 3+ dps warriors).

[Fisher 5]

5 minutes ago, Pwnjin said:

Fisher, deep wounds don't knock out anything which is higher than them in the list posted (atleast that seemed to be true for the whole time ive played; though since im playing on the PvE server we're on 8 debuff slots only and i can't be 100% sure).

And the way it was listed, they share the same priority. Deep Wounds will knock off other debuffs, depending on which has the lowest duration remaining, as long as they share the same priority.

I'm trying to find more information on the matter. Some people say Deep Wounds shares the same priority, some people say it's a "trash priority" debuff. In any case, Deep Wounds + Impale isn't worth it, in my opinion. Yes, it's nice for the warriors, but it's bad for the raid (not as good for the raid, that is), especially if you consider it can knock off debuffs like Nightfall which would be a massive raid-wide DPS increase, or other procs and debuffs.

11 minutes ago, Pwnjin said:

Also i think that it's in the raid interest to have warriors 220% dmg crits rather than +450 RAP for hunters (that's assuming you utilize 2-3 hunters and 3+ dps warriors).

That's 20% increased critical strike damage for abilities only. The 450 RAP is for auto attacks and abilities, doesn't require them to crit to benefit, and every hunter benefits as opposed to just one warrior. Deep Wounds is a vastly superior debuff.