What you retail players need to undertand about "Nina Looting" of BoE's

[MadAxeThrower 0]

17 minutes ago, Justme said:

BOEs are pretty much a bag of gold that dropped.

Not if someone in the party needs the item as an upgrade.

Listen, I get what you mean, and I'm not going to call you a thief or a parasite who is trying to excuse selfish and greedy behavior.

I of course do not agree with you, but I must say that it's extremely unreasonable to act in such manner in a game where people acquire power upgrades and advance their characters via gear.

Not to mention not very social at all, I personally wouldn't want to group with someone who might take an item from me, that I need as an upgrade, just to sell it for gold, again I do not find this behavior to be reasonable at all.

[Rapteg 0]

13 минуты назад, MadAxeThrower сказал:

 

Not to mention not very social at all, I personally wouldn't want to group with someone who might take an item from me, that I need as an upgrade, just to sell it for gold, again I do not find this behavior to be reasonable at all.

Being entitled to extremely random BoE items before they even dropped while everyone else also need these items is... kinda, not very social. It's not your item unless you rolled a 100 on it

[Justme 9]

14 minutes ago, MadAxeThrower said:

Not if someone in the party needs the item as an upgrade.

Listen, I get what you mean, and I'm not going to call you a thief or a parasite who is trying to excuse selfish and greedy behavior.

I of course do not agree with you, but I must say that it's extremely unreasonable to act in such manner in a game where people acquire power upgrades and advance their characters via gear.

Not to mention not very social at all, I personally wouldn't want to group with someone who might take an item from me, that I need as an upgrade, just to sell it for gold, again I do not find this behavior to be reasonable at all.

If I wanted to be social I wouldn't have pugged. I would've gone with friends.

[Oakenlix 79]

2 hours ago, MadAxeThrower said:

For example: in a 5-man party, should a Rogue roll Need on Freezing Band if a Mage needs it as an upgrade?

If your answer is yes, than we have a vastly different understanding on what constitutes fairness and morality in general.

My answer is yes, everyone should need on any BoE. But its not about morality, it is just a more safe and simple system of loot distribution.

In a way that you are describing, you can get fucked over by someone rolling need on an item that you were expecting him to greed. And it does happen, just look at all the "ninja" threads.

Now what if everyone rolled need on every BoE? It would fix this problem. The average amount of value people get wouldn't change, as every valuable BoE is easily convertable, but now people wouldn't be afraid of scamming since there would be no room for one.

As for you example, you are assuming that mage's gear upgrade is somehow more important that rogue's (which he would get from selling it and buying a suitable item for himself). I see completely no reason for that.

 

Edited February 18, 2017 by Oakenlix

[MadAxeThrower 0]

45 minutes ago, Rapteg said:

Being entitled to extremely random BoE items before they even dropped while everyone else also need these items is... kinda, not very social. It's not your item unless you rolled a 100 on it

You are calling me "entitled" ?! WoW! Just WoW! XD

[MadAxeThrower 0]

5 minutes ago, Oakenlix said:

As for you example, you are assuming that mage's gear upgrade is somehow more important that rogue's (which he would get from selling it and buying a suitable item for himself). I see completely no reason for thay.

This is insane, so stealing an item from someone who needs it, in order to sell it, this is somehow ok?

Your logic is immoral.

[Oakenlix 79]

Just now, MadAxeThrower said:

This is insane, so stealing an item from someone who needs it, in order to sell it, this is somehow ok?

Your logic is immoral.

Please just tell me, why is mage's gear upgrade is more important than rogue's?

[Rapteg 0]

3 минуты назад, MadAxeThrower сказал:

This is insane, so stealing an item from someone who needs it, in order to sell it, this is somehow ok?

Your logic is immoral.

You are not stealing anything from anyone. All 5 party members worked towards this BoE and everyone have same chances for that BoE and will have same value out of it. Your entitlement towards gear is so ridiculous.

Just listen to yourself, "this ring goes to mage because he is a mage and has more frost spells to throw", here, how dumb is it? If you try to be "rational" here - then again, you are not being rational, because you want to give up your chance to upgrade your character be passing on a BoE item, and expect everyone else to do the same because you say so.  

Edited February 18, 2017 by Rapteg

[Oakenlix 79]

Just now, Rapteg said:

You are not stealing anything from anyone. All 5 party members worked towards this BoE and everyone have same chances for that BoE and will have same value out of it. Your entitlement towards gear is so ridiculous 

Yep, thanks for adressing the "stealing" bullshit.

[Zabba 0]

You need gear to progress through the game and clear content.

Gold is a luxury that expedites your acquisition of needed items.

You do not need gold, you want it so you can obtain your needed items faster.

Therefore; rolling need on an item that you cannot use for the purpose of selling it, when a party member can and will use it, is selfish and greedy. You are placing more value on the acquisition of a luxury versus the party member's need for the gear to continue their character's progression. What you do with that luxury after needing on an unusable item is irrelevant.

This seems like a very straightforward concept although I can understand the motivation to rationalize your way around it when the item's perceived value is high.

[Oakenlix 79]

23 minutes ago, Zabba said:

You need gear to progress through the game and clear content.

Gold is a luxury that expedites your acquisition of needed items.

You do not need gold, you want it so you can obtain your needed items faster.

Thats a contradiction right there. You are saying player A needs a gear upgrade more than player B need the gold equivalent of the same gear upgrade.

[Roax 3]

So still most of the opinion-leaders of both sides state their point of view as the one and only truth. They implement they are social and fair, what they in fact would be, if anyone else in their group would follow their loot-rules. Ask yourself, if you are able to follow the loot-rules of the groupleader or the majority of the group, if stated in advance, even if it's not your preferred rule.

All the threads about need rolls on high valued BOEs show, that it's highly probable to pug with players, who don't share your opinion about this. That said, with the next unexpected BOE-drop the already well known drama is just around the corner, if the loot rules haven't been stated in advance.

If you join or build a group for just a few minutes (mostly outdoor groups for a few mobs or a quick quest) stating, voting for or discussing loot-rules will cost too much time. In that case there's still the possibilty to let group members, who greeded, repeat their roll, if someone won the need roll, who will only benefit by selling the item. If someone, who will benefit by equipping, has won the roll, there's nothing more to do, because the greeders followed the "need & greed rule" and the other needers lost their roll already. This behavior will not avoid all possible drama, but at least most of it. 

If that's too much communication/effort for you, don't pug. 

 

Edit: Sorry for the complicated flow of the text, but I'm no native speaker with a quite rusty english ;-)

Edited February 18, 2017 by Roax

[Zabba 0]

18 minutes ago, Oakenlix said:

Thats a contradiction right there. You are saying player A needs a gear upgrade more than player B need the gold equivalent of the same gear upgrade.

There is no contradiction in my statement. You injected/invented a contradiction with your rebuttal by quoting a portion of my statement and sprinkling it with your go to rationalization for need rolling on gear you cannot use.

Unfortunately, a BoE drop is not a bag of gold. If it were, it would be split equally among the party members. Looking at a BoE item as a bag of gold is an invention of your rationalizing mind, it is not what actually occurs.

[Oakenlix 79]

21 minutes ago, Zabba said:

There is no contradiction in my statement. You injected/invented a contradiction with your rebuttal by quoting a portion of my statement and sprinkling it with your go to rationalization for need rolling on gear you cannot use.

Unfortunately, a BoE drop is not a bag of gold. If it were, it would be split equally among the party members. Looking at a BoE item as a bag of gold is an invention of your rationalizing mind, it is not what actually occurs.

No you said that you need gear, but you don't need gold as much because its a "luxury". 

I'm asking you, what if this gold allows me to buy a gear I need? Why should that be a lower priority than someone else's gear upgrade?

And yes, a BoE drop is exactly the same as a bag of gold drop, except that you have to convert it to gold via AH. In which case, if you so desire, you could then split it between group members.

 

@Roax

Hey, nice post. One thing Id like to say is that we are indeed arguing about the facts rather than opinions.

Everyone should roll need on any BoE - that's my opinion.

Everyone benefits equally from winning a BoE - that's a fact, and I'm trying to explain why that is.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Oakenlix

[Zabba 0]

22 minutes ago, Oakenlix said:

No you said that you need gear, but you don't need gold as much because its a "luxury". 

I'm asking you, what if this gold allows me to buy a gear I need? Why should that be a lower priority than someone else's gear upgrade?

And yes, a BoE drop is exactly the same as a bag of gold drop, except that you have to convert it to gold via AH. In which case, if you so desire, you could then split it between group members.

 

@Roax

Hey, nice post. One thing Id like to say is that we are indeed arguing about the facts rather than opinions.

Everyone should roll need on any BoE - that's my opinion.

Everyone benefits equally from winning a BoE - that's a fact, and I'm trying to explain why that is.

Look Oak, I understand your perspective but it is rationally and fundamentally incorrect. That is why it is the perspective of the minority.

You are asking me to explain things that I have already explained. I agree that the gold could be used to buy gear upgrades, but guess what? You can obtain that gold by other/less douchebaggy means that doesn't involve screwing over another player out of a gear upgrade that actually dropped. Go grind for 5 days. What's that? You don't want to? Nobody does, but it's a solution that doesn't deprive anyone of needed items.

You don't have a lower priority than the other player,  your gear simply didn't drop. Now you need to invest more time to acquire your gear. Maybe next party some BoEs will drop that no one needs and you can cash in legitimately. Or if you're lucky your needed BoE will drop and no greedy people who cannot use it will roll on it.

There is no way to conclude that needing on gear that you cannot use is fair without ignoring or twisting the facts.

Everyone does not benefit equally from winning a BoE, only the persons who cannot use it benefit equally because they convert it to gold.

[Oakenlix 79]

7 minutes ago, Zabba said:

I agree that the gold could be used to buy gear upgrades, but guess what? You can obtain that gold by other/less douchebaggy means that doesn't involve screwing over another player out of a gear upgrade that actually dropped. Go grind for 5 days. What's that? You don't want to? Nobody does, but it's a solution that doesn't deprive anyone of needed items.

But why do you think its even relevant? Everyone can farm, including the person whose upgrade dropped. This drop makes this farm unnesessary for him just like it does for me, so whats the difference?

You insist that there's some magical meaning to whose class item dropped - like if it's a mage staff, then it should go to a mage even if any other member of the group can use it to get an appropriate gear upgrade for himself. Sorry, it doesn't make sense to me.

14 minutes ago, Zabba said:

Everyone does not benefit equally from winning a BoE, only the persons who cannot use it benefit equally because they convert it to gold.

Look, if a mage staff with market value of 100 gold drops, for mage winning this drop would save him these 100 gold that he no longer has to pay, and for any other group member it gives them 100 gold by selling it (to buy a gear or whatever else). It's the same 100 gold anyway, no matter how you look at this.

And as I said earlier, while making no major difference in the way players are rewarded in groups, everyone rolling need on BoEs would remove the problem of so-called "ninjas", since there would be no room for it, isn't that a huge advantage?

Well, if that doesn't convince you, I don't know what to say then. Agree to disagree, but I'm still confused why so many people don't realize it.

[Roax 3]

1 hour ago, Oakenlix said:

 

@Roax

Hey, nice post. One thing Id like to say is that we are indeed arguing about the facts rather than opinions.

Everyone should roll need on any BoE - that's my opinion.

Everyone benefits equally from winning a BoE - that's a fact, and I'm trying to explain why that is.

So let's talk about facts. First of all, I accept that everyone benefits nearly equally from winning a BoE as a fact. Each BoE-drop depends on actual market price for the dropped BoE & therefore its actual availability on the market and on the market prices and availability of all more or less statwise benefitting similar BoEs for all the classes of the group. But as a group isn't able to evaluate who benefits most, it doesn't matter at all. So yeah, you're right.

But all the the discussions back in retail vanilla and on recent vanilla forums just like this proved, there are lots of players, who think and feel, everybody - themselves included - should greed on BOEs, if you won't benefit from equipping. That's also a fact. Why they feel this way (me included btw) doesn't matter at all, because we are talking about virtual items and virtual gold, which only can be used in only one virtual game. If these players are happy with this, there's no need to "rescue" or convince them. They play the game in the way and by the rules they want to play it. There is nothing wrong about it, as there is also nothing wrong about playing it by the rules you & all the players, who prefer your based on pure numeric logic and simplicity loot rules.

But if no one is able to accept the other point of view as equal footing and/or is not willing to state, discuss or vote for the loot rules in advance, everybody should avoid pugs to avoid drama.

If you want to pug and want to avoid drama, think ahead. 

Edited February 19, 2017 by Roax

[Zabba 0]

The difference is that his upgrade dropped, yours did not. Pretty obvious difference. But this fact is rendered meaningless in your school of thought.

It's clear that you are unable or unwilling to distinguish gear from gold which makes this discussion pointless.

Gear is gear and gold is gold. Any other interpretation of that fact is an invention of your mind.

You need gear you can use to progress. - Need

You want gold to progress faster/easier. - Greed

Once again, I understand your perspective, acquiring gold in vanilla sucks. It takes a significant time investment, so why not take a little shortcut at the expense of some random, right? Ultimately you are taking a detour off of reality road to arrive at that destination without realizing that you are pissing people off.

In all fairness, I wouldn't label it as Ninja looting. It's called being a dick.

[Oakenlix 79]

16 minutes ago, Roax said:

If these players are happy with this, there's no need to "rescue" or convince them. They play the game in the way and by the rules they want to play it. There is nothing wrong about it, as there is also nothing wrong about playing it by the rules you & all the players, who prefer your based on pure numeric logic and simplicity loot rules.

But it was never my main point to tell people how to roll in their groups. My main point is that its extremely wrong to label people who roll "Need" on BoEs as ninjas and greedy cunts if there were no specific loot rules set, as they didn't do anything wrong. This is what I have a problem with. 

And then, just as a possible solution, I say that it would be better if everyone rolled like that, as it would remove the problem, but I'm ok if people don't want that.

@Zabba

I'm pretty sure you don't understand my perspective now that I've read your post, and you haven't proven my points to be wrong either. May be reading my posts for the second time would give you a better insight. As I said, I have nothing more to add to my arguments, and neither should it be nesessary.

 

Edited February 19, 2017 by Oakenlix

[Roax 3]

41 minutes ago, Oakenlix said:

But it was never my main point to tell people how to roll in their groups. My main point is that its extremely wrong to label people who roll "Need" on BoEs as ninjas and greedy cunts if there were no specific loot rules set, as they didn't do anything wrong. This is what I have a problem with. 

And then, just as a possible solution, I say that it would be better if everyone rolled like that, as it would remove the problem, but I'm ok if people don't want that.

 

I understand you & am able to agree with you. It's wrong to be called a ninja in that case. I even could agree on you with your provided solution, although I don't prefer it. But as you won't convince everybody or at least a big majority, there'll always be pugs with players of every "roll-faction". So my solution/advice is, to state the loot-rules  or at least ask for clarification in advance. I bet in the long term that'll work better, than trying to convince most of the players through the forum that everybody needing on BoEs is more fair and simpler put.

[Beerwizzard 13]

Damn. Guys, go back to my thread! xD
We already had a huge discussion.

[Rapteg 0]

2 часа назад, Roax сказал:

 

But all the the discussions back in retail vanilla and on recent vanilla forums just like this proved, there are lots of players, who think and feel, everybody - themselves included - should greed on BOEs, if you won't benefit from equipping. That's also a fact.

If you want to pug and want to avoid drama, think ahead. 

From two servers i've played on i never ever seen someone greed on BoE. It's server to server thing probably.

But anyways, it's not the case of "whose opinion right", it's the case of being fair, and needing on BoE is more fair than passing it, because, you know, you too had you part in achieving this BoE.

Now second point:

Where exactly this "need only if you will equip it right away" ridiculous system stops?

See this as an example

a group of 30 levels, two warriors (tank and DPS), two shamans (heal and DPS) and a druid in SM:L sees a cobalt crusher drop (BoE two-handed mace), everyone rolls need on it (all warriors have class-axe and all shamans have superior corpsemaker, druid pretends to not know that weapons doesn't work in forms and they are basically statstics), and everyone will get upset over anyone in this group because they all are entitled to this system.

or everyone just rolls need and no one bats an eye because it was fair roll for bag of cash.

First "system" is drama-inducing and uses "my moral ground is higher than yours just because" joke-of-an-argument

Second "system" - isn't. it's just more fair to everyone working together.

I agree that loot rules should be discussed prior moving on to dungeon but that's never the case in these threads, isn't it? Because OPs are entitled people who want everyone to pass an expensive item to them because of them rolling X class are exactly that - entitled. I'm getting tired of repeating this, but BoE gear doesn't belong to you alone just because you can equip it.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Rapteg

[Zabba 0]

@Oakenlix

I understand your perspective completely. I disagree with it completely. It is neither fair nor logical. It is a greed based rationalization period.

I read all your posts in their entirety and responded to all your questions and statements.

Do whatever you want bro.

[Roax 3]

2 hours ago, Rapteg said:

I agree that loot rules should be discussed prior moving on to dungeon but that's never the case in these threads, isn't it? Because OPs are entitled people who want everyone to pass an expensive item to them because of them rolling X class are exactly that - entitled. I'm getting tired of repeating this, but BoE gear doesn't belong to you alone just because you can equip it.

If you can agree, that loot rules should be discussed in advance, so why not start yourself bringing it up in your pugs to shorten the accusations. This might lead to more people doing so.

[Rapteg 0]

8 минут назад, Roax сказал:

If you can agree, that loot rules should be discussed in advance, so why not start yourself bringing it up in your pugs to shorten the accusations. This might lead to more people doing so.

I do, actually, state loot rules after bringing new guy in a group. And so far, when i wasn't a leader i've met only one person, who didn't need on BoE, and this guy was completely nuts i must add (you can find a thread about some sperm-guy, or seamen-something somewhere around here).

I also do not accuse people in my pugs of anything, i accuse people here calling other players ninjas, while obviously having zero clue about what ninjaing is, in bullshitting and being whiny, needy, assholes who want everything for themselves. 

Edited February 19, 2017 by Rapteg