What you retail players need to undertand about "Nina Looting" of BoE's

[Roax 3]

Good to know. I did not mean to offend you. I'm sorry, if you felt offended. 

On my retail vanilla server the dominating rule was need=equip on horde. Never played alliance, but as it was pve, I guess the alliance did it just the same. But remember talking about it back then, that it differed region- or languagewise. I played on a german server.

My other thought about it is, that's probably harder to farm on a pvp-server, so that need on BoEs was/is the preferred rule. Never played in pvp, so I might be completely wrong ;-).

And the guys, that are going nuts on in advance stated rules,  can't be taken serious. To me, it's all about avoiding as much drama as possible, but there'll always be some of it.

 

[Rapteg 0]

45 минут назад, Roax сказал:

Good to know. I did not mean to offend you. I'm sorry, if you felt offended. 

On my retail vanilla server the dominating rule was need=equip on horde. Never played alliance, but as it was pve, I guess the alliance did it just the same. But remember talking about it back then, that it differed region- or languagewise. I played on a german server.

My other thought about it is, that's probably harder to farm on a pvp-server, so that need on BoEs was/is the preferred rule. Never played in pvp, so I might be completely wrong ;-).

And the guys, that are going nuts on in advance stated rules,  can't be taken serious. To me, it's all about avoiding as much drama as possible, but there'll always be some of it.

 

I am not offended by this conversation.

I've been playing on arthas eu and warsong eu and neither of these servers had this "need=equip" rule, because BoE item had, well, more uses than just equip it (which was most of the time just a waste. Who would want to equip, say, pendulum of doom on level 40 character? It's just a waste of a great pvp twink item.

You could potentially farm BoEs (and many rogue players did setup bots to do that) but you always run into a risk of investing fuckton of time and get literally nothing in return - it makes way more sense (if you refuse to spend gold on a BiS BoE for some reason) to farm a second best item. Like in the case of "BiS pre raid tanking BoE shoulders" - there is way easier to get your hands on blue shoulders with almost exactly same stats on dire maul, just go there couple of times and you are good to go, difference between BoE and BoP in this case is just 10% of stats. There is always BoP item that can replace BoE in sense of character progression, so if you don't want to spend gold on BoE you don't do two things:

1) Farm for them endlessly in "LFM X item reserved" groups

2) Bitch about people who don't pass this item to you.

Instead you do:

1) Buy it on AH

2) Farm equivalent item

After re-reading what i wrote it really sounds like i'm telling others how to play - i don't, i'm just advising the better way to do things than waste your time on pointless things and induce drama with strangers. So, yeah, feel free to say that you need this BoE more than someone else, just don't expect people to abide by these ridiculous "rules" 

 

Edited February 19, 2017 by Rapteg

[Coop 3]

16 hours ago, Oakenlix said:

My answer is yes, everyone should need on any BoE. But its not about morality, it is just a more safe and simple system of loot distribution.

In a way that you are describing, you can get fucked over by someone rolling need on an item that you were expecting him to greed. And it does happen, just look at all the "ninja" threads.

Now what if everyone rolled need on every BoE? It would fix this problem. The average amount of value people get wouldn't change, as every valuable BoE is easily convertable, but now people wouldn't be afraid of scamming since there would be no room for one.

As for you example, you are assuming that mage's gear upgrade is somehow more important that rogue's (which he would get from selling it and buying a suitable item for himself). I see completely no reason for that.

 

What if that Rogue already has all of the BoE's he needs, does he become a ninja if he still needs on it then? Not all classes BoE's are valued equally either. 

Your method potentially throws up way more caveats than simply rolling need if it's an upgrade, greed if you want to sell. 

[Oakenlix 79]

15 minutes ago, Coop said:

What if that Rogue already has all of the BoE's he needs, does he become a ninja if he still needs on it then? Not all classes BoE's are valued equally either. 

The way you use the value you got from the item is irrelevant, I only make this example with gear because some people here are so fixated on it. So no, it's still the same principle. 

Rogue may spend his earned gold on anything he wants including giving it away for charity, same as mage could use his gear upgrade on farming boars in Durotar. Doesn't make any difference in how the loot is distributed.

15 minutes ago, Coop said:

Your method potentially throws up way more caveats than simply rolling need if it's an upgrade, greed if you want to sell. 

Such as?..

 

Edited February 19, 2017 by Oakenlix

[Rapteg 0]

2 часа назад, Coop сказал:

What if that Rogue already has all of the BoE's he needs, does he become a ninja if he still needs on it then? Not all classes BoE's are valued equally either. 

Your method potentially throws up way more caveats than simply rolling need if it's an upgrade, greed if you want to sell. 

Well lets go back to "equip if you roll need" system some people love so much here

There is a +frost damage ring, a mage and a shaman rolls on it, shamans equips it and mages butt blows away in rage. How is that different? Now instead of getting ~100g off this item shaman just equipped it and will sell it for ~1g instead. And shaman is legitimate contender for this item because he has frost shock which is boosted by this item. I know, it's ridiculous, but good luck getting any BoE weapon if you have a hunter in your group with your system - because he can equip almost anything.

 

But to answer your question - if "that Rogue" has all the gold he needs - yeah, he may pass on that. But as long as gold stays relevant (and i can't see how it will stop being relevant) he will be rolling need on BoEs.

The only way to stop this is to make BoEs useless to the point of their cost dropping down significantly, to, basically, vendor cost.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Rapteg

[Hackwork 0]

The Quel'Serrar book dropped in DM in vanilla once and everyone rolled need, as you do. I won the book, but I already had a good tanking weapon, so I gave it to a friend for free. What kind of ninja am I?

[Oakenlix 79]

46 minutes ago, Hackwork said:

The Quel'Serrar book dropped in DM in vanilla once and everyone rolled need, as you do. I won the book, but I already had a good tanking weapon, so I gave it to a friend for free. What kind of ninja am I?

An outrageously incompetent one. You ninja license is taken away until you graduate from your local ninja school again.

[Paltos 7]

On 17/02/2017 at 1:30 PM, Trummp said:

I actually saw a rogue lvl 22 equip this after winning the roll on Nostalrius and it blew my mind.  He had no intention of twinking.  No idea the value of the blade.  He also went on a rant because everyone rolled need on the item.

Had a shaman win Night Reaver and equip it instantly. He was like 24 or something. Made me sad.

[Iliilliill 0]

On ‎18‎.‎2‎.‎2017‎ г. at 7:19 AM, o0oNullo0o said:

Are you saying that if a Freezing Band drops and the warrior wins the ring, he can't go sell that and then buy Stockade Pauldrons? There is benefit to getting BOE even if you don't actually "Need" the stats on it. I personally do not like that people do this, but you cannot argue with logic, dude.

Never claimed such a thing, those are your words.
The question is not if he can or can not do it. You can do "exploits", you can do "glitches" - but do you use them ?
The question is should he or should he not. Because if somebody needs that exact item in the group and it drops he is always the one with priority towards the item.
And then again, in your example if the warrior wants the ring it is once again pure greed. He wants the money not the ring - huge difference. Its all the same for him if its the ring or another boe or some material - he greeds it because he wants the monetary value. Whyle the player that will use the stat has no greed towards it, he has need for the benfit of the stats. 

P.s. Further more, literaly everybody trying to give an example assumes the item will sell at AH for the same Value as the item they are going to buy - this is simply not true in real conditions. If you are going to give an example check it up first, don't use just the perfect example because you wish it to be true.
 

Edited February 27, 2017 by Iliilliill
added P.s.

[Iliilliill 0]

On ‎18‎.‎2‎.‎2017‎ г. at 11:36 AM, Oakenlix said:

If you promise me that you are completely serious about that and truly believe what you say here, that you aren't just trolling me to waste my time, I will make a genuine reply trying to explain things to you one last time.

As you can see I am quite serious. I did gave you reference and all. If you can argue any of the points ill be glad to change my mind. But that is ofc if you can somehow argue the definitions of the word "greed"and the word "need". And if you somehow are able to prove that the player that wants the gold will gain more benefit in that group, than the player that needs the stats of the item.
I still say you cant, but go ahead.

[Iliilliill 0]

On ‎18‎.‎2‎.‎2017‎ г. at 10:03 PM, Rapteg said:

You are not stealing anything from anyone. All 5 party members worked towards this BoE and everyone have same chances for that BoE and will have same value out of it. Your entitlement towards gear is so ridiculous.

Just listen to yourself, "this ring goes to mage because he is a mage and has more frost spells to throw", here, how dumb is it? If you try to be "rational" here - then again, you are not being rational, because you want to give up your chance to upgrade your character be passing on a BoE item, and expect everyone else to do the same because you say so.  

So let me see if I understood you - you justify the need for gold based on equal contribution.
So you will not get angry if I the healer or tank, roll need on all your rogue items ? You know because I will sell them - no matter if BoE or BoP ?

[Iliilliill 0]

On ‎18‎.‎2‎.‎2017‎ г. at 10:00 PM, MadAxeThrower said:

This is insane, so stealing an item from someone who needs it, in order to sell it, this is somehow ok?

Your logic is immoral.

Its a simple matter of dealing with people like @Rapteg . He will defend his greed here in the forums, because there are no consequences, he will flap his mouth.
The best thing to do is to Need on all the Items he needs ingame if you meet him following his logic he has no right to get angry or cry ninja - because you will sell all  the items for gold, no matter BoP or BoE. If more players did this we would not have such threads in the forums.

[Oakenlix 79]

On 18.02.2017 at 4:40 AM, Iliilliill said:

Fact is you can not argue not one of the points I made, here are the talking points feel free to thinker on them and crush me at any time:

1. Simple linguistics- choosing the word that better describes the issue,  the meaning of the words Greed and Need.
2. Why do people form groups, what is the purpose of the groups - basic definition of what is needed.
3. The ability to benefit from the item right away when you make the decision - or potentially use it to gain some thing in the distant future.
4. Game mechanics, based on your words you can benefit directly from gold equally as much as you can benefit from stats - well I write you are wrong.

P.s. If you really did not "give a crap" you would not respond to my post but its too late for now isn't it? There is a good reason why most corps. and public personas do not give response to some thing.

Alright. One more time. 

1. Linguistics and definitions are irrelevant in this discussion. What the words "Need" and "Greed" mean is irrelevant. There are game mechanics that speak for themselves, and those are: if you click "Need", you will roll for that item. If you click "Greed", you will only roll if nobody has chosen "Need". That's it, no need to bring up dictionaries and stuff. So the only difference between "Need" and "Greed" is priority - high for the former and low for the latter. If you think you need this drop as much as other group members or more, you choose "Need". If you think you need it less, choose "Greed".

2. Doesn't matter what the purpose of the group is, if every member contributes equally (which we assume, because otherwise just don't group with slackers), then every member has equal right to roll on a universally useful item, which BoEs are.

3. It's not "distant future". Auction houses are easily reachable places. Whether you benefit from this drop instantly or day after, doesn't make much difference.

4. What does it matter if you can benefit directly or indirectly? Stats and gold are easily convertable into each other, period.

If an item is easily convertable into gold and vice versa, which BoEs are, it's worth is it's equivalent in gold. And everyone in the group has the same right to this gold, no matter in form of which item it dropped. This doesn't apply to BoPs, obviously, because you can't buy one. 

PS: just because I don't care about your opinion doesn't mean I won't reply to you, and that's yet another display of how weird your way of thinking is.

PPS: and now that I've read your later posts, I'm finally convinced you're a hopeless moron with no shred of logic in your head. Good job.

 

Edited February 27, 2017 by Oakenlix

[Rapteg 0]

4 часа назад, Iliilliill сказал:

So let me see if I understood you - you justify the need for gold based on equal contribution.
So you will not get angry if I the healer or tank, roll need on all your rogue items ? You know because I will sell them - no matter if BoE or BoP ?

Do you understand difference between BoP and BoE?

[Sajuto 0]

10 hours ago, Rapteg said:

Do you understand difference between BoP and BoE?

What does it matter?  That dagger still sells for 2g to a vendor.  Putting that gold straight to my upgrade fund.

[Rapteg 0]

39 минут назад, Sajuto сказал:

What does it matter?  That dagger still sells for 2g to a vendor.  Putting that gold straight to my upgrade fund.

So, you don't understand the difference between BoP and BoE items too. Gotcha. It's probably fine at your level of play then.

Also you probably would want to know that there is a dungeon called Razorfen Kraul in southern barrens, it has a boss called "warlord ramtusk", he is surrounded with 2 guards each drops a polearm weapon worth ~2g when you sell them to vendor + loot from a boss himself (from 40s to 1g). I advice you to go there, kill these three, walk out, reset dungeon and repeat until you never need gold ever, then go back to doing dungeons with other people 

Edited February 28, 2017 by Rapteg

[J.AllenBrack 1]

So anyway 

Boots of Avoidance http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=14549#dropped-by

just dropped on my Maraudon dungeon run, and I was pretty excited (being a tank, and planning on tanking late game raids), and I asked the group If it was cool if I needed on the boots, seeing as how It was actually one of the best boots to have pre-raiding. The Thornstone Sledgehammer literally just dropped the mob before the mob that dropped the boots, and we all unanimously greeded on the Blue BoE, so I assumed this group was sensible and understood Need before Greed. But when the boots dropped, I asked politely if i could need the boots to actually use (and equip on the spot), but the group suddenly became irate saying that the boots were only good to sell and that I'd "Outlevel them" and that everyone should need because it was "vauable" regardless of if they could use it or were only going to AH it (If they were worth a lot, that's because they are useful at 60/raiding so that " you'll outlevel it" comment was one of the dumbest things i'd ever heard).

I ended up losing the roll to a rogue, who I politely whispered the rogue if I could get the boots off of him and I'd even be willing to pay, since I really could use them, and it was (in my mind, not fair that we should all need just because it was a BoE). But he replied "For alot of gold yes", and I was pretty upset and decided I no longer wanted to finish the run with this group and wanted to leave. I helped everyone clear to Celebras and explained to everyone how to get the scepter and then left the group. 

Am I wrong in believing that it was unjust to Need on a BoE someone could actually use just to AH? I mean if it was a Blue BoE I needed, I can't imagine this would be a problem, but it was an Epic so I'm guessing everyone's greed just got the better of them. If something different like Stockade Pauldrons or Gut Ripper, or Krol Blade dropped and we had someone who could actually use the items, is it still acceptable for everyone to Need on the item, just out of pure greed? I'm pretty sure that this constitutes Ninjaing, in this situation, am I wrong? (I'll post Screenshots if anyone wants evidence)

[o0oNullo0o 4]

9 hours ago, J.AllenBrack said:

Am I wrong in believing that it was unjust to Need on a BoE someone could actually use just to AH?

You are not wrong in thinking this, but the harsh reality is that there is almost always a greedy person in your group who doesn't care about the rule and will roll need on BoE's regardless of their usefulness to others in the group. It is for this reason that some have resorted to just having all roll need on the item. I legitimately hate that it has come to this, but what can you do? If all the chill people pass for you and some greedy guy rolls and wins the item over you, the other 3 guys literally lost out on a chance to have a BoE that they themselves could either sell or give to you if they were kind enough. 

Even if you establish a rule before running the dungeon, there is no certainty that all of the members will actually follow the rule. Roll need and pray that you or someone with a kind heart wins it. 

[Bluntski 13]

15 hours ago, J.AllenBrack said:

So anyway 

Boots of Avoidance http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=14549#dropped-by

just dropped on my Maraudon dungeon run, and I was pretty excited (being a tank, and planning on tanking late game raids), and I asked the group If it was cool if I needed on the boots, seeing as how It was actually one of the best boots to have pre-raiding. The Thornstone Sledgehammer literally just dropped the mob before the mob that dropped the boots, and we all unanimously greeded on the Blue BoE, so I assumed this group was sensible and understood Need before Greed. But when the boots dropped, I asked politely if i could need the boots to actually use (and equip on the spot), but the group suddenly became irate saying that the boots were only good to sell and that I'd "Outlevel them" and that everyone should need because it was "vauable" regardless of if they could use it or were only going to AH it (If they were worth a lot, that's because they are useful at 60/raiding so that " you'll outlevel it" comment was one of the dumbest things i'd ever heard).

I ended up losing the roll to a rogue, who I politely whispered the rogue if I could get the boots off of him and I'd even be willing to pay, since I really could use them, and it was (in my mind, not fair that we should all need just because it was a BoE). But he replied "For alot of gold yes", and I was pretty upset and decided I no longer wanted to finish the run with this group and wanted to leave. I helped everyone clear to Celebras and explained to everyone how to get the scepter and then left the group. 

Am I wrong in believing that it was unjust to Need on a BoE someone could actually use just to AH? I mean if it was a Blue BoE I needed, I can't imagine this would be a problem, but it was an Epic so I'm guessing everyone's greed just got the better of them. If something different like Stockade Pauldrons or Gut Ripper, or Krol Blade dropped and we had someone who could actually use the items, is it still acceptable for everyone to Need on the item, just out of pure greed? I'm pretty sure that this constitutes Ninjaing, in this situation, am I wrong? (I'll post Screenshots if anyone wants evidence)

You are a sensible person. It's too bad most people are greedy like the rogue you mentioned.

[Bluntski 13]

5 hours ago, o0oNullo0o said:

Even if you establish a rule before running the dungeon, there is no certainty that all of the members will actually follow the rule. Roll need and pray that you or someone with a kind heart wins it. 

This is the problem with this whole thing. Every single person defending needing BOEs is simply not a kind hearted person. They are self-centered and greedy.

[o0oNullo0o 4]

1 minute ago, Bluntski said:

This is the problem with this whole thing. Every single person defending needing BOEs is simply not a kind hearted person. They are self-centered and greedy.

I'm not defending them. I'm simply saying that you cant prevent greedy people from rolling so all might as well roll need and the person who wins it gives it to the person who needs it. Think of it this way. If Stockade Pauldrons drop and both the tank and a random greedy rogue rolls need, the chances of the tank getting it are 50/50. But if the tank and the greedy rogue, and the 3 other members roll need, his chances of getting it are much higher because if one of the other members gets them, they can give them to the tank. 

I'm not sure what you expect people to really do. There is no way we can stop a greedy person from rolling, so simply all roll and if you get it, give it to the person who actually needs it to prevent the greedy people from having a higher chance. 

Maybe i'm not explaining this right, but trust me, i'm with the people who say Need before Greed. We just have to accept that not everyone is going to follow this rule and adapt accordingly.

[Jupes85 5]

On 2/17/2017 at 8:21 AM, Oakenlix said:

What if you can use the item by selling it to buy an upgrade that you will equip?

Highlighted the key words for you to make the puzzle a bit easier.

 

The question becomes 'Where does it end?'

Everything in the game has some sort of value, so by that logic, everything can ultimately be flipped into a future upgrade that you can equip. That's the problem with this way of thinking. Whether it's a high end epic or a low end green or something in between, you can always justify needing on everything because it'll be used as future upgrades. It encourages greedy behaviors.

This is a video game where most memories are made from friendships and goofy things, not from selling a BoE for a good chunk of gold.

[Oakenlix 79]

1 minute ago, Jupes85 said:

The question becomes 'Where does it end?'

Everything in the game has some sort of value, so by that logic, everything can ultimately be flipped into a future upgrade that you can equip. That's the problem with this way of thinking. Whether it's a high end epic or a low end green or something in between, you can always justify needing on everything because it'll be used as future upgrades. It encourages greedy behaviors.

This is a video game where most memories are made from friendships and goofy things, not from selling a BoE for a good chunk of gold.

Hello. What you just said makes no sense.

Yes, everything that can be sold for gold could partially or fully provide you with a gear upgrade. No, it doesn't mean it's ok to "Need" on everything.

[Jupes85 5]

1 minute ago, Oakenlix said:

Hello. What you just said makes no sense.

Yes, everything that can be sold for gold could partially or fully provide you with a gear upgrade. No, it doesn't mean it's ok to "Need" on everything.

So I'll ask again : Where does it end ?

Sometimes you can justify Needing on an item to flip it on the AH, but sometimes it's not okay ? What's the magic number ? 10g+ ? 100g+ ?

I'm not expecting an actual reply to this, but I fail to see how you think my post made no sense. I never said that you NEED to roll need on everything, I just said that by the logic that I quoted, you COULD justify rolling need on anything because everything has a value that can be turned into an upgrade. So again. Where does it end ?

[Oakenlix 79]

@Jupes85

And I fail to see why you would think that whether or not you should roll "Need" depends on the item's value.

It only depends on whether or not you need it more, less or equally to other group members. Which pretty much means: roll need on BoEs always, roll need on BoPs only if its a gear upgrade to you.